*** Ragnarok (Dark Avengers) ***

Unknown

DumDumDugn wrote:

Bugpop wrote:

Should we nerf Thor?

Iron man 35 can't do as much damage as thor for the same amount of Red AP
Thor has more HP

It's hard to beat Thor with Iron Man. Thor generates yellow tiles but Iron Man 35 can't. Thor is too powerful.

Could we please stay on topic?

This is discussion relevant to the topic. The issue is whether Ragnarok is too powerful, because he's 'better' than Thor. A very similar comparison can be made between Thor and Iron Man 35.


Edit: You put it into a poll. This is to encourage discussion and to provide some enlightenment.

Unknown

Bugpop wrote:

DumDumDugn wrote:

Bugpop wrote:

Should we nerf Thor?

Iron man 35 can't do as much damage as thor for the same amount of Red AP
Thor has more HP

It's hard to beat Thor with Iron Man. Thor generates yellow tiles but Iron Man 35 can't. Thor is too powerful.

Could we please stay on topic?

This is discussion relevant to the topic. The issue is whether Ragnarok is too powerful, because he's 'better' than Thor. A very similar comparison can be made between Thor and Iron Man 35.


Edit: You put it into a poll. This is to encourage discussion and to provide some enlightenment.

When did I say Rag is too powerful because hes better than Thor?

Unknown

Bugpop wrote:

DumDumDugn wrote:

Bugpop wrote:

Should we nerf Thor?

Iron man 35 can't do as much damage as thor for the same amount of Red AP
Thor has more HP

It's hard to beat Thor with Iron Man. Thor generates yellow tiles but Iron Man 35 can't. Thor is too powerful.

Could we please stay on topic?

This is discussion relevant to the topic. The issue is whether Ragnarok is too powerful, because he's 'better' than Thor. A very similar comparison can be made between Thor and Iron Man 35.


Edit: You put it into a poll. This is to encourage discussion and to provide some enlightenment.

Agreed. cStorm's 'nerf' didn't cause comparisons like this because raging tempest is a unique ability. But if we are seriously talking about nerfing rags because his ap cost is too low or his damage output it too high or whatever else then you have to be willing to talk about the ramifications of such a nerf. How will/should it affect Thor or **Wolvie or whoever else.

For instance, if it was announced that there would no longer be active powers that can be used for less than 4ap and every character with a 2 or 3 ap power was going to be adjusted that would be easier to swallow than, "Rags is too good, we'll make him worse".

Or if we were told the ratio of damage to ap cost has to be less than x, so all characters will be altered to comply that's easier to accept than just a single character being nerfed when others may be similarly unbalanced.

The issue of current owners of a high level Rag having an unfair advantage is silly if immediately followed by "nerf him". There are better ways to deal with that issue.

Unknown

DumDumDugn wrote:

When did I say Rag is too powerful because hes better than Thor?

To be fair you didn't really say anything about Rags (in this thread). All you said was you understand both sides of the issue.

Unknown

I don't think he should be nerfed, are you trying to say player who started playing longer should balance out with newbie ? 2ap is 620 for max level. Thor is 6ap for 1000+, It's not easy to get red cover also. Thor is level 85 and Rag is 115 for max there is a level different. If you calculate rag at level 85 red 2ap x 3 is almost the same damage as Thor level 85, Thor's yellow is 2000+. I don't think there is a need to nerf as It's a 3 stars. Thor is a 2 stars, what you should suggest is to bring back loki to it's old self. Yes the lightning is too much 200% buff of Rag but in normal game Rag is not that powerful. But fair enough Lightning is a to be a fast tournament It's better to play fast and get over it for the 90 minutes. And the top players of the lightning don't even own a max 100+ Ragnarok. I believe if you play long enough you will reach get better stuff. learn to walk before you try to Run.

Unknown

Aiolia wrote:

I don't think he should be nerfed, are you trying to say player who started playing longer should balance out with newbie ? 2ap is 620 for max level. Thor is 6ap for 1000+, It's not easy to get red cover also. Thor is level 85 and Rag is 115 for max there is a level different. If you calculate rag at level 85 red 2ap x 3 is almost the same damage as Thor level 85, Thor's yellow is 2000+. I don't think there is a need to nerf as It's a 3 stars. Thor is a 2 stars, what you should suggest is to bring back loki to it's old self. Yes the lightning is too much 200% buff of Rag but in normal game Rag is not that powerful. But fair enough Lightning is a to be a fast tournament It's better to play fast and get over it for the 90 minutes. And the top players of the lightning don't even own a max 100+ Ragnarok. I believe if you play long enough you will reach get better stuff. learn to walk before you try to Run.

Except there's a luck component to who has Rag. I've been playing since day 1 and i have a 0/3 rag.

Unknown

DumDumDugn wrote:

Aiolia wrote:

I don't think he should be nerfed, are you trying to say player who started playing longer should balance out with newbie ? 2ap is 620 for max level. Thor is 6ap for 1000+, It's not easy to get red cover also. Thor is level 85 and Rag is 115 for max there is a level different. If you calculate rag at level 85 red 2ap x 3 is almost the same damage as Thor level 85, Thor's yellow is 2000+. I don't think there is a need to nerf as It's a 3 stars. Thor is a 2 stars, what you should suggest is to bring back loki to it's old self. Yes the lightning is too much 200% buff of Rag but in normal game Rag is not that powerful. But fair enough Lightning is a to be a fast tournament It's better to play fast and get over it for the 90 minutes. And the top players of the lightning don't even own a max 100+ Ragnarok. I believe if you play long enough you will reach get better stuff. learn to walk before you try to Run.

Except there's a luck component to who has Rag. I've been playing since day 1 and i have a 0/3 rag.

I did not have Rag till Dark Avengers tournament, true enough you need luck.

Unknown

DumDumDugn wrote:

Bugpop wrote:

DumDumDugn wrote:

Bugpop wrote:

Should we nerf Thor?

Iron man 35 can't do as much damage as thor for the same amount of Red AP
Thor has more HP

It's hard to beat Thor with Iron Man. Thor generates yellow tiles but Iron Man 35 can't. Thor is too powerful.

Could we please stay on topic?

This is discussion relevant to the topic. The issue is whether Ragnarok is too powerful, because he's 'better' than Thor. A very similar comparison can be made between Thor and Iron Man 35.


Edit: You put it into a poll. This is to encourage discussion and to provide some enlightenment.

When did I say Rag is too powerful because hes better than Thor?

I don't know that you specifically said so. It seems people feel he's the strongest character in the game. I think with the options we have now he is strong for having AP efficient damage and effective green AP generation. I think Spider Man is very strong and I've seen people say they want to see him nerfed too. G.Widow is strong. She's really strong when paired with Ragnarok.

So what happens when we bring in the Human Torch. Can we expect an attack that adds 5 red tiles? An ability that turns 5 random green tiles to red? That might be interesting.

Unknown

well i think rag is the most broken char. he can solo play wiht his neverending cycle. true, the damage is not of concern but the low ap is. i don't think anyone want his hard to obtain cover get nerfed.
but , boy, this 3s tournament belong to rag. i skip anyone who had rag lv 50 up. his health point is too much. the only char who can best him is the same high level rag. im40 take too much time to blow him with unibeam, grew suit too. dr.doom is good. but he's more than Damage per turn.
the idol of this 3s tourney is RAG
i wish i got 5 red cover..i can replace or combo him with thor/cstorm.fast winning but boring combo

Unknown

MissMarvelBoobs wrote:

well i think rag is the most broken char. he can solo play wiht his neverending cycle. true, the damage is not of concern but the low ap is. i don't think anyone want his hard to obtain cover get nerfed.
but , boy, this 3s tournament belong to rag. i skip anyone who had rag lv 50 up. his health point is too much. the only char who can best him is the same high level rag. im40 take too much time to blow him with unibeam, grew suit too. dr.doom is good. but he's more than Damage per turn.
the idol of this 3s tourney is RAG
i wish i got 5 red cover..i can replace or combo him with thor/cstorm.fast winning but boring combo

I can do well with Magneto, Hood, and Spider Man. I have to be careful with spider man since he's not buffed.

Unknown

For lack of better option I chose 4. I don't have Ragnarok and I don't like him, so I am not really interested in obtaining him on high level any time soon, but I still don't think he should be nerfed.

After many battles against buffed Rag, I don't really fear him, even 100+lvl. True, I died sometimes when I wasn't careful enough, but Rag on his own is not that terrifying. What is more, he is far from being strongest character in the game, there are others I fear more to be honest. He is powerful, but he is 3 star after all, then again not the best 3 star out there.

I basically agree with Aiolia, so I will just quote him

Aiolia wrote:

I don't think he should be nerfed, are you trying to say player who started playing longer should balance out with newbie ? 2ap is 620 for max level. Thor is 6ap for 1000+, It's not easy to get red cover also. Thor is level 85 and Rag is 115 for max there is a level different. If you calculate rag at level 85 red 2ap x 3 is almost the same damage as Thor level 85, Thor's yellow is 2000+. I don't think there is a need to nerf as It's a 3 stars. Thor is a 2 stars, what you should suggest is to bring back loki to it's old self. Yes the lightning is too much 200% buff of Rag but in normal game Rag is not that powerful. But fair enough Lightning is a to be a fast tournament It's better to play fast and get over it for the 90 minutes. And the top players of the lightning don't even own a max 100+ Ragnarok. I believe if you play long enough you will reach get better stuff. learn to walk before you try to Run.

Unknown

I agreed...I been trying to get Ragnarok cover..only manage to get the green one which is not the main point for me..
BUT if i really manage to get both red and green, i guess i am will be spending to upgrade his power.

So i believe it won't happen that Ragnarok will be nerf at all..unless dev is trying to kill the "money tree" character.

Plus he's a 3* characters which definitely have his advantages.

Unknown

Shikao wrote:

What is more, he is far from being strongest character in the game, there are others I fear more to be honest. He is powerful, but he is 3 star after all, then again not the best 3 star out there.

So you're saying Ragnarok is the 2nd worse 3-star after Loki?

Kiamodo

I'm sure there is a strategy that can beat rags everytime we just haven't found it yet. His strength is a low cost for red powers leading to a surplus of green tiles and a board ripe with critical tiles. So maybe a character will come out that changes red tiles to another color. Is he a great character you bet. But nerf him? No way.

Unknown

Kiamodo wrote:

I'm sure there is a strategy that can beat rags everytime we just haven't found it yet. His strength is a low cost for red powers leading to a surplus of green tiles and a board ripe with critical tiles. So maybe a character will come out that changes red tiles to another color. Is he a great character you bet. But nerf him? No way.

Professor X w/ a passive ability: Calm Rage. When an opponent matches red tiles, automatically converts green tiles to blue.

Unknown

As someone who just spent real money to level their Rags' red cover I can say that nerfing the character would be a slap in the face for a paying customer. The problem with several characters in this game is that the DEVS didn't do enough internal testing with the characters behind the scenes. Anyone that has played WOW or other MMOs has seen this before (Remember Death Knights and Ret Paladins at the start of the Wrath of the Lich King?). The DEVS felt that Loki was a broken character for his old purple skill so they changed it and BAM! Lots of people rage quitting and getting angry, heck I'm pretty sure the 3 most talked about topics on this forum is classic storm is bad for the game, Rags needs to be nerfed, and fix Loki back. The problem is that nerfing rags could cause the paying players to quit and at the end of the day this is a business and they want to make money off of us. That is always going to be the number 1 goal for the game: make money. They have put themselves into a bit of a corner. The only real way they can get people to stop focusing on Rags without nerfing him is to release a far stronger character, but then everyone will just hate on that new character once the paying players get him. Having said that it does make sense to adjust Ragnarok, BUT they need to refund the paying customers in some way for the nerf. They ignored Loki players who spent money and I think doing so again to Rags players would cause a lot of people to quit. People work hard for their money and to feel like you threw it away will undermine the fun of the game.

Unknown

I think one of the main issues with Rag is that his "disadvantages" are irrelevant--Lower level, only 2 abilities and attack strengths. Level is irrelevant because he still has one of the most health in the game. 2 abilities are irrelevant because his red is one of the best in the game and teamates can cover the other colours. In fact, these so-called "disadvantages" are actually advantages because it means less covers and less ISO needed to max him out.

I understand a lot of people would be upset with Rag being nerfed. I think it's safe to assume people spent money on him with the mindset that he's the strongest in the game and not specifically just the best-bang-for-the-buck. If he were merely that, I'd be okay with it, just like c.Storm. But right now, he's both the best-bang-for-the-buck and the best character overall. I think people should be confident in spending money on Hood or Loki or any other 3-star. So even from a pay2win perspective, I don't feel things are quite balanced.

That being said, I don't think nerfs are terribly necessary or even the best answer. If I were to nerf anything, it would simply be a minor health nerf.

Kiamodo

thegreatruss wrote:

As someone who just spent real money to level their Rags' red cover I can say that nerfing the character would be a slap in the face for a paying customer. The problem with several characters in this game is that the DEVS didn't do enough internal testing with the characters behind the scenes. Anyone that has played WOW or other MMOs has seen this before (Remember Death Knights and Ret Paladins at the start of the Wrath of the Lich King?). The DEVS felt that Loki was a broken character for his old purple skill so they changed it and BAM! Lots of people rage quitting and getting angry, heck I'm pretty sure the 3 most talked about topics on this forum is classic storm is bad for the game, Rags needs to be nerfed, and fix Loki back. The problem is that nerfing rags could cause the paying players to quit and at the end of the day this is a business and they want to make money off of us. That is always going to be the number 1 goal for the game: make money. They have put themselves into a bit of a corner. The only real way they can get people to stop focusing on Rags without nerfing him is to release a far stronger character, but then everyone will just hate on that new character once the paying players get him. Having said that it does make sense to adjust Ragnarok, BUT they need to refund the paying customers in some way for the nerf. They ignored Loki players who spent money and I think doing so again to Rags players would cause a lot of people to quit. People work hard for their money and to feel like you threw it away will undermine the fun of the game.

I agree with everything said. Give the devs time to level the playing field through the intro of new characters and we as a community can share our stratagies against other players and characters.

Unknown

ihearthawthats wrote:

I think one of the main issues with Rag is that his "disadvantages" are irrelevant--Lower level, only 2 abilities and attack strengths. Level is irrelevant because he still has one of the most health in the game. 2 abilities are irrelevant because his red is one of the best in the game and teamates can cover the other colours. In fact, these so-called "disadvantages" are actually advantages because it means less covers and less ISO needed to max him out.

I understand a lot of people would be upset with Rag being nerfed. I think it's safe to assume people spent money on him with the mindset that he's the strongest in the game and not specifically just the best-bang-for-the-buck. If he were merely that, I'd be okay with it, just like c.Storm. But right now, he's both the best-bang-for-the-buck and the best character overall. I think people should be confident in spending money on Hood or Loki or any other 3-star. So even from a pay2win perspective, I don't feel things are quite balanced.

That being said, I don't think nerfs are terribly necessary or even the best answer. If I were to nerf anything, it would simply be a minor health nerf.

That's the good "synergy" or "chemistry" that he has with other characters. I'm certain as we wait we'll have other characters that have similar "synergy" which similarly affect the game.

Nemek

I think the devs know a lot more than we do about how balanced the characters are at maxed level. If anything, THAT'S where the balance should be focused on.

We're at an interesting point in the lifetime of the game in which very few people have fully maxed out 3 star characters. From their 'I know how things end up 1-2 months from now' view, I suspect Ragnarok is much less of an issue.

I think I've seen MAYBE one of each of the other 3 star characters at maxed level. But, each time...they've been rather impressive (ok ok, not Loki). Doom does HOW much damage with his strike tiles every single turn? Hood can steal like...6 AP a turn? Magneto can negate how much damage every turn?

For me, I have a Rag and IM40 competing in the 3 star tourney...and I barely even use Rag's abilities. Do you know how long it takes to kill three characters with 5000+ health using just Thunderclap? A LOT! 25? 30? Can you sit through that many animations for a single match? I use IM40s abilities, since the blue ability does 2000+ damage to all enemies and the red does 3000+ to one (I don't have my IM40 maxed yet, so I don't know the numbers off the top of my head.)