*** Ragnarok (Dark Avengers) ***

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  • Ragnarok:
    Thunderclap - Red
    Damage:633 on max lvl.

    Thor:
    Mjolnir’s Might - Red
    Damage: 1113 on max lvl.

    Higher AP cost for Ragnarok would make him deal the same amount of damage per AP as Thor. 3 star character should deal more damage than 2 star one, therefore damage for skill shouldn't be changed.

    I find his green attack more annoying to deal with. 2 rows, new tiles, cascades, AP generated etc. I wouldn't mind changing number of tiles generated from Thunderclap.


    After some fights, I reached a conclusion that for enemies like Ragnarok we have something called stun. You can choose from:
    Spider-Man (Classic) - All Tied Up
    Captain America (Modern) - Peacemaker
    Hawkeye (Modern) - Electric Arrow
    Storm (Classic) - Wind Storm
    Black Widow (Modern) - Widow’s Sting
    Venom (Dark Avengers Spider-Man) - Symbiote Snare

    Black widow with her stealing abilities is also very usefull.

    Once stunned or when trying to control field (our team may not be using green AP but we still should collect it) Ragnarok is quite easy to kill.
    Aleatory wrote:
    In pvp in the last few minutes where burning through as many opponents as possible is key to get the points you need and stay ahead of the losses you are taking from being beaten down by everyone else, being able to go in with 6red, 6 green (to feed wolv strike tiles), and other spare colours to keep your 3rd character fed it is incredibly rare for an opponent to last more than about 3-4 turns.

    with full set of boosters I'd say that many characters or character combinations are "OP":
    - Thor - opens fight with Mjolnir’s Might, collects yellow => Thunder Strike
    - IM 40 Recharge lvl 2/3 - 2/3 turns to get 9 red and blue AP
    - Storm (Classic) - Wind Storm 11 blue AP, with IM 40's recharge you can easily use her blue skill twice whic = around 3,2k damage to the whole party + stunn (add Magneto (Marvel NOW!) with his Polarity Shift to generate blue AP)
    - Spider-Man - 2 Ap for stunn = 1 character stunned for 1 turn, 2nd for 2 turns,3 3rd for 3 turns.
    - Wolverine (Astonishing X-Men) - starts battle with 2 Feral Claws + bonus from red AP


    Ragnarok kill very fast characters with low health points, which are 1 and 2 star ones. After a while many people will have 3 star characters and Ragnarok will stop giving as that feeling of being OP.
  • edited November 2013
    Take a good look at Ragnarok. He is comparatively weak. He's only strong with two colors and has a lot of hit points. Level 85 2* Wolverine scares me more than level 115 ragnarok.

    You can't compare Thunderclap at level 115 with Mjolnir's Might at level 85. There's a 30 level difference there. Mjolnir's Might produces yellow, which when his yellow is charged up and used, is quite a bit more damage/ap efficient.

    I rarely get the cascading waterfall of matches that the AI does when using thunderclap and godlike power. When I do it's a small waterfall. The AI gets Niagara Falls. I figure it's a way for the devs to increase the difficulty without having to make the AI smarter.
  • Misguided wrote:
    Aleatory wrote:
    1. 2 AP for damage and 5 green tiles is ridiculously cheap.

    Even if it did zero damage on its own, it would still be ridiculous.


    Loki used to have Transmogification that changed up to 10 red and 10 yellow to purple (up to 20 tiles). Black ability and cost in the neighborhood of 9 black AP. that was ridiculous.
  • NemekNemek Posts: 1,511
    I believe that Ragnarok is pretty powerful, but not overwhelmingly so. It's rare that I'm 'afraid' of a high-level Ragnarok at this point (except for the lightning tournaments, because that was just ridiculous.)

    The amount of damage done with his abilities isn't THAT good...I'd say his greatest utility is with generating all of those greens with Thunderclap.

    Still, I think that right now he has a place on almost all high-level teams.
  • Nemek wrote:
    Still, I think that right now he has a place on almost all high-level teams.

    I think there are still a lot of people that don't have Ragnarok covers. Heck, I have 22 3-star covers, but only one of those is Ragnarok (same for Spidey and Magneto). I would love to get a red cover.
  • I think Thunderclap does need some tuning, a lot of talk has been comparing the ability with Thor's Red ability, but when you compare them by AP cost it does look a little too much:

    Thor - 6 Red AP = 1113 and 5 Yellow Tiles

    Ragnorok - for 6 Red AP you generate 1899 damage and 15 green tiles

    I know Rag is a 3* cover and so should be slightly more powerful than Thor, but dealing almost double the damage and 3 x the amount of tiles for the same AP is OP, and with all those tiles you are bound to get some auto matches for even more damage.
  • Soon we are going to complain about every 3 star character. Most of them are powerfull. Ragnarok is just very polular.

    for example:

    Doom:
    Summon Demons - Black 12
    Strength of Attack Tiles: 185 per Tile
    Damage: 6x185 = 1100 per turn

    IM 40:
    Unibeam - Red 13
    Damage: 3559

    We are complaining because we use 2 star characters but after some time many people are going to have 3 star characters. Then things are going to change. We will start complaining that 2 star characters are too weak and can use only 3 star ones for battles.
  • Nick-Fury wrote:
    I think Thunderclap does need some tuning, a lot of talk has been comparing the ability with Thor's Red ability, but when you compare them by AP cost it does look a little too much:

    Thor - 6 Red AP = 1113 and 5 Yellow Tiles

    Ragnorok - for 6 Red AP you generate 1899 damage and 15 green tiles

    I know Rag is a 3* cover and so should be slightly more powerful than Thor, but dealing almost double the damage and 3 x the amount of tiles for the same AP is OP, and with all those tiles you are bound to get some auto matches for even more damage.


    Thor is very good. He has three strong abilities in Red, Yellow, and Green. Red supports yellow, and yellow supports green. He is strong in Red, Yellow, and Green and high hit points.

    Ragnarok is just a bad copy of Thor. Imagine a 3-star Thor. Ragnarok has one strong ability and one wildcard ability. Thunderclap supports Godlike ability. He's limited to two colors.

    Ragnarok has to rely on Red to generate damage reliable damage. Thor can deal damage in Red, Yellow, and Green. Look at the overall character to see where the weaknesses are. Ragnarok is less versatile but is able to do more with what he has.

    Thor at level 85:
    HP: 5350
    Yellow: 45
    Red:50
    Blue:10
    Green:39
    Violet:9
    Black:11

    Mjolnir's Might: 5/5
    6 Red
    1113 damage + 5 Yellow Tiles

    Thunder Strike 4/5
    12 Yellow
    2225 Damage + 5 Green Tiles

    Call the Storm 4/5
    14 Green
    1113 damage to target, 556 damage to others

    Ragnarok at level 90
    HP: 5594
    Yellow: 9
    Red: 41
    Blue: 9
    Green: 41
    Violet: 10
    Black: 10

    Godlike Power 5/5
    6 Green
    Destroy two center columns, deals tile damage, no AP

    Thunderclap 5/5
    2 Red
    515 Damage + 5 green tiles
  • Your comparison is not complete though, because in your example, Thor is maxed out, but Rag has another 25 levels to go.
  • Bugpop wrote:
    Nick-Fury wrote:
    I think Thunderclap does need some tuning, a lot of talk has been comparing the ability with Thor's Red ability, but when you compare them by AP cost it does look a little too much:

    Thor - 6 Red AP = 1113 and 5 Yellow Tiles

    Ragnorok - for 6 Red AP you generate 1899 damage and 15 green tiles

    I know Rag is a 3* cover and so should be slightly more powerful than Thor, but dealing almost double the damage and 3 x the amount of tiles for the same AP is OP, and with all those tiles you are bound to get some auto matches for even more damage.


    Thor is very good. He has three strong abilities in Red, Yellow, and Green. Red supports yellow, and yellow supports green. He is strong in Red, Yellow, and Green and high hit points.

    Ragnarok is just a bad copy of Thor. Imagine a 3-star Thor. Ragnarok has one strong ability and one wildcard ability. Thunderclap supports Godlike ability. He's limited to two colors.

    Ragnarok has to rely on Red to generate damage reliable damage. Thor can deal damage in Red, Yellow, and Green. Look at the overall character to see where the weaknesses are. Ragnarok is less versatile but is able to do more with what he has.

    Thor at level 85:
    HP: 5350
    Yellow: 45
    Red:50
    Blue:10
    Green:39
    Violet:9
    Black:11

    Mjolnir's Might: 5/5
    6 Red
    1113 damage + 5 Yellow Tiles

    Thunder Strike 4/5
    12 Yellow
    2225 Damage + 5 Green Tiles

    Call the Storm 4/5
    14 Green
    1113 damage to target, 556 damage to others

    Ragnarok at level 90
    HP: 5594
    Yellow: 9
    Red: 41
    Blue: 9
    Green: 41
    Violet: 10
    Black: 10

    Godlike Power 5/5
    6 Green
    Destroy two center columns, deals tile damage, no AP

    Thunderclap 5/5
    2 Red
    515 Damage + 5 green tiles


    Not even quite sure where to start on this post ... I suppose the most obvious comment is that life does not exist in a vacuum, just as you don't have 1 character on your team.

    Someone already pointed out the damage per AP comparison, the simple fact of the matter is, Thor is expensive. 6/11/15ap for a 5/5/3 build ... Rag is 2/6ap

    Rag is an unbelievable combo card, and its not like you can effectively starve an ability that costs TWO!! I cannot stress just how much that matters.

    Strike tiles add damage to every hit. Therefore the more hits you do - such as cascades from turning the board green, or lots of 2AP ability triggers - the more effective they are, and you are doing both at the same time.
    All major strike tile generating cards make them via green. This means you just get stronger and stronger.
    Max lev wolverine generates 89dam strike tiles ... yes that's right, 89.

    So here is the maths for you. Start with 6green 6red ap.
    use feral claws = 278 damage + create 2 strike tiles.
    use feral claws again = 278 + 178dam + create 2 more strike tiles.
    strike tile bonus is now 356
    use Thunderclap = 633 damage + 356 + create 5 green
    use thunderclap again = 633 + 356 + create 5 green
    use thunderclap again = 633 + 356 + create 5 green

    That on its own ... is 3701 damage.

    Then think that 15 green has just been added, that basically guarantees at LEAST one match, which is tile match damage + 356.
    Then you use the 3 green ap from the match to use feral claws again 278 + 356 + 1 strike tile (need 5 red for additional tile)
    strike tiles now up to 445 damage

    By this point 4500+ damage and you have not even had your turn to match tiles which will be damage + 445, and given how much green created probably match green meaning next turn another feral claws + strike damage

    Compare this to Thor, 6ap of any colour, you can use red skill once.
    1113 damage + 5 yellow tiles. Unlikely to get a match from that, but you might.
    Match 3 tiles for 150damage ... maybe.
    End turn.


    I have to say after all that I totally agree, Rag is a poor copy of Thor ... absolutely!
  • lets add more numbers!
    Aleatory wrote:
    Compare this to Thor, 6ap of any colour, you can use red skill once.
    1113 damage + 5 yellow tiles. Unlikely to get a match from that, but you might.
    Match 3 tiles for 150damage ... maybe.

    in second turn = 1113 + 2225 + match dmg = 3473 Thor on his own

    Storm (Classic) + 6AP from boosters
    with Recharge from IM40
    can easily use her

    Wind Storm - Blue
    Damage:1670 to all

    2 times during 1 battle, which gives 3340dmg to each enemy + stun for one

    Ragnarok wins with his burst damage. Other characters are more balanced in terms of burst/dot
    [...]etc..etc... <ads more combinations of different character>[...]

    Many characters, combinations of characters can do a lot of damage. Try doing it without boosters, it won't be so easy.

    I think that discussion should end, we can throw numbers, complain, not complain etc. Forums are read by devs so all that is left is to wait for their reaction.
    Who knows, maybe to make things more balanced we are going to get Hulk with his OP attack costing 2 AP? ;P
  • NemekNemek Posts: 1,511
    I think so much of this conversation is going to be moot in the near-ish future.

    Two months from now, we'll be complaining about how it's not fair how 10 star Galactus can just suck up all of your opponents on the first turn and Rags will only be used by people who are behind the times.

    (I'm kidding, obviously...but I do suspect this era of Ragnarok dominance will come to an end in the not too distant future.)
  • my number one gripe with ragnarok isn't his abilities or damage. its the fact its low ap cost so you have to watch the animation every gd turn.

    ANIMATIONS. (my gripe with daken/bullseye/wolverine) i will skip these bahstards if i have a better target to kill.
  • Your comparison is not complete though, because in your example, Thor is maxed out, but Rag has another 25 levels to go.

    How is comparing level 115 ragnarok to level 85 thor more accurate in saying ragnarok is overpowered? Ragnarok is 30 levels higher. His Thunderclap at level 115 does more damage than Thunderclap at 85. Therefore the baseline for comparison should be level 85. My Ragnarok is level 90. That's what I have to offer for a more accurate comparison.

    Aleatory wrote:
    Bugpop wrote:
    Nick-Fury wrote:
    I think Thunderclap does need some tuning, a lot of talk has been comparing the ability with Thor's Red ability, but when you compare them by AP cost it does look a little too much:

    Thor - 6 Red AP = 1113 and 5 Yellow Tiles

    Ragnorok - for 6 Red AP you generate 1899 damage and 15 green tiles

    I know Rag is a 3* cover and so should be slightly more powerful than Thor, but dealing almost double the damage and 3 x the amount of tiles for the same AP is OP, and with all those tiles you are bound to get some auto matches for even more damage.


    Thor is very good. He has three strong abilities in Red, Yellow, and Green. Red supports yellow, and yellow supports green. He is strong in Red, Yellow, and Green and high hit points.

    Ragnarok is just a bad copy of Thor. Imagine a 3-star Thor. Ragnarok has one strong ability and one wildcard ability. Thunderclap supports Godlike ability. He's limited to two colors.

    Ragnarok has to rely on Red to generate damage reliable damage. Thor can deal damage in Red, Yellow, and Green. Look at the overall character to see where the weaknesses are. Ragnarok is less versatile but is able to do more with what he has.

    Thor at level 85:
    HP: 5350
    Yellow: 45
    Red:50
    Blue:10
    Green:39
    Violet:9
    Black:11

    Mjolnir's Might: 5/5
    6 Red
    1113 damage + 5 Yellow Tiles

    Thunder Strike 4/5
    12 Yellow
    2225 Damage + 5 Green Tiles

    Call the Storm 4/5
    14 Green
    1113 damage to target, 556 damage to others

    Ragnarok at level 90
    HP: 5594
    Yellow: 9
    Red: 41
    Blue: 9
    Green: 41
    Violet: 10
    Black: 10

    Godlike Power 5/5
    6 Green
    Destroy two center columns, deals tile damage, no AP

    Thunderclap 5/5
    2 Red
    515 Damage + 5 green tiles


    Not even quite sure where to start on this post ... I suppose the most obvious comment is that life does not exist in a vacuum, just as you don't have 1 character on your team.

    Someone already pointed out the damage per AP comparison, the simple fact of the matter is, Thor is expensive. 6/11/15ap for a 5/5/3 build ... Rag is 2/6ap

    Rag is an unbelievable combo card, and its not like you can effectively starve an ability that costs TWO!! I cannot stress just how much that matters.

    Strike tiles add damage to every hit. Therefore the more hits you do - such as cascades from turning the board green, or lots of 2AP ability triggers - the more effective they are, and you are doing both at the same time.
    All major strike tile generating cards make them via green. This means you just get stronger and stronger.
    Max lev wolverine generates 89dam strike tiles ... yes that's right, 89.

    So here is the maths for you. Start with 6green 6red ap.
    use feral claws = 278 damage + create 2 strike tiles.
    use feral claws again = 278 + 178dam + create 2 more strike tiles.
    strike tile bonus is now 356
    use Thunderclap = 633 damage + 356 + create 5 green
    use thunderclap again = 633 + 356 + create 5 green
    use thunderclap again = 633 + 356 + create 5 green

    That on its own ... is 3701 damage.

    Then think that 15 green has just been added, that basically guarantees at LEAST one match, which is tile match damage + 356.
    Then you use the 3 green ap from the match to use feral claws again 278 + 356 + 1 strike tile (need 5 red for additional tile)
    strike tiles now up to 445 damage

    By this point 4500+ damage and you have not even had your turn to match tiles which will be damage + 445, and given how much green created probably match green meaning next turn another feral claws + strike damage

    Compare this to Thor, 6ap of any colour, you can use red skill once.
    1113 damage + 5 yellow tiles. Unlikely to get a match from that, but you might.
    Match 3 tiles for 150damage ... maybe.
    End turn.


    I have to say after all that I totally agree, Rag is a poor copy of Thor ... absolutely!

    Effective use of the team. Adding the boosts does a lot. The AI neither starts with boosts nor uses an ability more than once. 115 Ragnarok/ 85 Wolverine teams are pretty scary if unprepared. I use a different lineup when playing them. I can eliminate these teams without boosts. I don't necessarily need to starve red/green either but it depends on luck. Sometimes there's too much red. Using boosts I can eliminate them very quickly.
    Nemek wrote:
    I think so much of this conversation is going to be moot in the near-ish future.

    Two months from now, we'll be complaining about how it's not fair how 10 star Galactus can just suck up all of your opponents on the first turn and Rags will only be used by people who are behind the times.

    (I'm kidding, obviously...but I do suspect this era of Ragnarok dominance will come to an end in the not too distant future.)

    I agree. As more characters are added, the odds are that we'll see game changing chemistry between characters.
  • A large part of the problem is that people went up against a high level Rag, saw what the potential is, and immediately move to level theirs. This fed itself to the point that no one really tried the other covers. Give it some time for the other 3 * covers to catch up and maybe we will see some new strategies start to emerge. I'm rather fond of Dr. Doom at the moment. And of course Spider Man is...the most irritating thing imaginable.
  • _fulu_ wrote:
    A large part of the problem is that people went up against a high level Rag, saw what the potential is, and immediately move to level theirs. This fed itself to the point that no one really tried the other covers. Give it some time for the other 3 * covers to catch up and maybe we will see some new strategies start to emerge. I'm rather fond of Dr. Doom at the moment. And of course Spider Man is...the most irritating thing imaginable.

    The best strategy for Spider Man, is Spider Man. Watch the AI blue AP, let the AI use two or 3 webs, careful not to get Spider Man webbed up in second or third web, and then shoot web at Spider Man. If AI didn't match web tiles then he's stunned for 3 or 4 turns.
  • Bugpop wrote:
    The best strategy for Spider Man, is Spider Man. Watch the AI blue AP, let the AI use two or 3 webs, careful not to get Spider Man webbed up in second or third web, and then shoot web at Spider Man. If AI didn't match web tiles then he's stunned for 3 or 4 turns.

    It's not that I can't handle him easy enough, I just hate the delays he causes when I'm pushing for a higher tier award. Irritating.
  • I fail to see why people care when/how the AI does anything when discussing whether a character needs changing. There are a bunch of comments in here complaining about animation times or saying that the AI doesn't do X or Y ... who cares what the AI does???

    Its well established that the AI is pretty basic, but whether a character is overpowered or not is based on gameplay when a human uses it. The simple fact of the matter is that Ragnarok = easy mode, and therefore needs to be fixed because it does not in any way fall in line with the rest of the characters for balance.

    What the AI does with the character should in no way reflect whether it is broken, because you need to work on the premise that the opponent is a human player, and just imagine that for a minute, if the AI was improved and started using Rag more the way it can be used, do you think that you would complain a lot more loudly then?? I bet you will.

    It needs balancing because it is far too powerful compared to all the other characters out there, and ultimately removes a certain level of skill from playing.
  • Reremnu wrote:
    lets add more numbers!
    Aleatory wrote:
    Compare this to Thor, 6ap of any colour, you can use red skill once.
    1113 damage + 5 yellow tiles. Unlikely to get a match from that, but you might.
    Match 3 tiles for 150damage ... maybe.

    in second turn = 1113 + 2225 + match dmg = 3473 Thor on his own

    +2225? from what? Thors yellow skill? That needs 11 at its lowest cost. You would have to get lucky and get a tile match from Thors Red skill AND then manage to match yellow in your first turn to get to 12. It will happen occasionally. I am listing factually what will work EVERY time, not what can happen if you are lucky.

    Reremnu wrote:
    Storm (Classic) + 6AP from boosters
    with Recharge from IM40
    can easily use her

    Wind Storm - Blue
    Damage:1670 to all

    2 times during 1 battle, which gives 3340dmg to each enemy + stun for one

    So 6 blue AP from boost.
    Assuming you have a skill 1 yellow IM40 to be able to trigger his yellow first turn
    Assuming none of the yellow tiles get matching in the 2 turns it takes for them to tick down

    That's using storms ability in turn 3for an amazing 1670 damage!
    Then to use it a second time you have to get another 7 blue AP from somewhere as 6+9 = 15 and 2 uses is 22.

    Not in any way comparable to time frame, damage output or that you have generated multiple strike tiles that will cause large amounts of damage every turn you use them just by matching tiles of any colour and boost any ability you use.

    If you remove the boosts from this calculation which process is easier? The one that feeds of abilities costing 2 and 3 which is going to work even when some colours are scarce? Or the one with abilities that cost 6/11/12?

    Hard to believe people will even try and argue Rag isn't broken and needs fixing.
  • question isn't if he needs fixing, but if he is to be fixed, what would fix him?

    the damage on the ability is low, so can't really nerf that anymore, decrease til generation? or increase the ap cost and create the same amount of tiles? then you'll have to increase damage also to compensate for the higher ap cost.

    then he's a duplicate of thor. that's just boring.

    edit: basically, how can he be fixed isntead of complaining about nerfing him. i don't run a rag (yet) so i have nothing emotionally invested in this.
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