*** Ragnarok (Dark Avengers) ***

OzarkBoatswain

In the original post, the max level damage for Thunderclap is wrong. It's for level 140 but he goes to 166 now. Color damage and max health are wrong too. (His health at 166 is likely 10200.)

Thunderclap is now slightly better -- more damage and a more unique color. It might be worth playing him with Mystique. Green is still bad and his blue seems terrible.

Unknown

I'm actually looking forward to his blue. Pairing him with X-Force, the only overlap is green, the new blue will provide self healing (True Heal or temp is still a question) and green charge tiles which will help speed up Wolverines Green. Add that to Wolverine's yellow, and if the blue provides true healing you will have a pair that dishes out quick damage and heals themselves as they fight.

Unknown

First bad re-work in a while.

They nailed it with Daredevil, Loki, Dr Doom, Xforce and Magneto. I thought "hey they may suck at nerfing, but at least they know what they're doing when it comes to re-works."

Hopefully Rags doesn't create a new trend of nerfing already terrible characters.

This change makes me nervous for what they have in store for Invisible Woman.

Unknown

taloncarde wrote:

True Heal or temp is still a question

It should be a Burst of Health (i.e. temporary). You can check it in the current PvE, when Ragnarok uses Lightning Rod the healed HPs are green, while true healing restores actual hit points, colored orange.

Unknown

Kappei wrote:

taloncarde wrote:

True Heal or temp is still a question

It should be a Burst of Health (i.e. temporary). You can check it in the current PvE, when Ragnarok uses Lightning Rod the healed HPs are green, while true healing restores actual hit points, colored orange.

Thanks, I haven't been paying that close attention to him in the PVE, just was thinking today about how I wanted to best use him post upgrade (regardless of other factors, to me having a 3rd power is an upgrade)

I like the way He and Thor are built, where their powers feed each other, but that's just me

NorthernPolarity

I think I said I would do one of these for each character, so here you guys go:

Initial Ability Impressions

Thunderclap - A top tier ability. Look at thunder strike. Now look at this ability. Now look at thunder strike again. Now look at this ability. 2x this ability = 1 thunder strike, and since thunder strike is OP and a top tier ability, it follows that this one is as well. Old rags was generally underrated because thunderclap was always very good: his only problem was that he was a one ability wonder, so it follows that he'll end up being very very good if he gets one more ability! Top tier rags, here we go!.....

Lightning Rod - .... or not. Holy **** is this ability bad. Let me get this straight. 3* Thor does thunder strike into call the storm, which does a ton of damage considering the acceleration. Rags does thunderclap into... this..... There are just so many things wrong about this ability. 1. Burst of healing abilities tend to suck in general, and 8 blue to burst heal 1.8k HP just isn't very good. Sure, you get 3 charge tiles on green, but if playing with 4or is any indication, average case of this would be that there are like 9 green tiles on board, so the immediate value you get is spending your match 3 on a match with a single charge tile and getting an extra 2 green AP out of the deal. This ability is just terrible: generally useless healing considering the cost (maybe it would be better at 6 AP), and the AP acceleration you get is unreliable, delayed, and just not very exciting. This ability is even worse on PvP defense, where it actually ends up accelerating your opponent instead. Ugh. But hey, at least the ability it accelerates into is good!....

Godlike Power - You've got to be kidding me. I mean, 2.2k team damage isn't that bad by itself, but it costing 14 AP and having a terrible accelerant in lightning rod just destroys the ability. It's like they took 3* thor and thought "thunder strike into CtS is really good, so lets do something like that for Rags, except lets make the second part of the chain absolutely horrible and the payoff even worse!" If you can get it off, then this will be passable, but thats a tall order given how expensive it is.

These changes might have actually made Rags worse. His red is colorshifted post nerf so it has stayed roughly the same, but green somehow got worse due to this new green just not being castable assuming you have a semblance of a reasonable team. Blue is very marginal, and will actually help your opponent out on defense since they'll probably match the charge tiles. Old rags suffered from having a top tier acceleration ability but nothing else going for him, and new rags is exactly the same. One of the worst "buffs" in the history of the game, and just a huge disappointment overall.

The Meta Check

End-Game 4* Metagame Check - Assuming player has xor.

Is this character anywhere near the power level of X-Force / 4or?

Hahahahahaha, no.

Is this character better than Loki / Hood as 4or / X-Force's Third Wheel for things such as PvE and Shield Simulator?

Nope.

The 3* Meta Check - Assuming the player does not have xor, but high end PvP characters like LazyThor, BP, Doom, etc. I'm lumping X-Force players in here too because most is applicable.

Is this character better than LazyThor

Not even close.

2->3* Transitioners - Assuming the player has only 2*s and this one guy as a 3*.

Easily low tier. His green doesn't do enough damage to carry a match. His red, while top tier, is only top tier if theres a worthwhile blue to accelerate into, of which there are none in 2* land on reasonable characters. (thunderclap into AGD is not going to win you anything).

Seed Killing? - Eh... thunderclap's alright.

TLDR: Blech. We learned that a character with only 1 good active ability isn't good enough to be played except in niche PvE situations. At least we get to face this version of Rags in PvE, should make things a lot easier.

SolidQ

Interesting how many month or years, we would be waiting for his buff??
He's curently bagnarok. But thank dev's for free 1k hp

I think there should be:
1. Green reduce 10-11Ap
2. Red convert again Green
3. Blue reduce to 1k heal, but True Heal

Unknown

It's not fair to compare anyone that isn't X Force to Thor (3*). With an impending nerf to Thor (4*), Thor (3*) might be better than all 4* that isn't X Force (he's certainly more reliable even if he gives up some damage numbers). Ragnarok being a threat in the past with only two abilities meant he was probably too good so they nerfed him. Lightning Rod is a weak acclerator but again that's only if you assume the typical AP accelerator should like Thunder Strike or Illusions. There's no particular reason to play him compared to say Thor (3*) but Thor is way better than the vast majority of 3*s to begin with. It seems to me they're very slowly cleaning up the broken stuff in this game and the new characters are balanced assuming that the broken stuff isn't in there, so of course there isn't much reason to go with new guys while the broken stuff is in the game.

Most of the argument I see boils down to 'how come a guy with a ton of HP doesn't have the best moves?' Well that's why he has a ton of HP. Just because all the broken characters have the best moves and a ton of HP doesn't mean that's the model you should be going for. The guy with the most HP should have relatively weaker moves. I do wonder if Lightning Rod is created to make the DA themed events easier since it usually helps the other side more than it helps yourself, and that DAs oddly don't really need green AP feed (they generally get that from goons already).

NorthernPolarity

Phantron wrote:

It's not fair to compare anyone that isn't X Force to Thor (3*). With an impending nerf to Thor (4*), Thor (3*) might be better than all 4* that isn't X Force (he's certainly more reliable even if he gives up some damage numbers). Ragnarok being a threat in the past with only two abilities meant he was probably too good so they nerfed him. Lightning Rod is a weak acclerator but again that's only if you assume the typical AP accelerator should like Thunder Strike or Illusions. There's no particular reason to play him compared to say Thor (3*) but Thor is way better than the vast majority of 3*s to begin with. It seems to me they're very slowly cleaning up the broken stuff in this game and the new characters are balanced assuming that the broken stuff isn't in there, so of course there isn't much reason to go with new guys while the broken stuff is in the game.

Most of the argument I see boils down to 'how come a guy with a ton of HP doesn't have the best moves?' Well that's why he has a ton of HP. Just because all the broken characters have the best moves and a ton of HP doesn't mean that's the model you should be going for. The guy with the most HP should have relatively weaker moves. I do wonder if Lightning Rod is created to make the DA themed events easier since it usually helps the other side more than it helps yourself, and that DAs oddly don't really need green AP feed (they generally get that from goons already).

The comparison was there with 3* Thor because thats the character that's most natural for ragnarok to be compared to. If you want to compare Ragnarok to more balanced characters like Grocket, Doom, so on and so forth, he's just as underwhelming. I guess I'll have more comparisons to fair characters next time, since it is true that I talk a lot about comparisons to LazyThor when he isn't exactly the most balanced 3* as you said. So sure, not all characters have to be as good as LazyThor, but I'd expect a post balanced character to be at least as good as say, an average character such as Punisher, but its clear that he's much much worse than that. If you want to make the tank argument, fine. Compare him to Grocket who is an above average tank character, and its painfully obvious how much weaker Ragnarok is comapred to him.

iamxzo

i like changes, good gsbw partner

ClydeFrog76

So, how many people are going to sell their Rags?

This "buff" doesn't make me want to play with him at all, so I'm really thinking that it's more worth my while to offload my 5/5 140 at the inflated buy-back price and invest the ISO and HP in another character.

Unknown

I've been using Ragnarok in the current Dr. Doom pvp, and they make a pretty good duo now since Thunderclap feeds Technopathic strike.

Sandwichboy

Well, Loki and Doom got really awesome 3rd powers, guess Rags drew the short straw...

The sad part is that there's a really easy way to keep this powerset and actually make it viable. Add bonus damage to green for each charged tile and change the blue from "creates charged tiles" to "transform 3 basic tiles into 3 green charged tiles." Wouldn't make him compete with Xforce, but it would at least make him playable.

*edit: aaaaaaand just realised that that would be at least a guaranteed 9 green from an 8 blue ability. Which would mean either a cost upgrade or...yeah I take it back. This build is just plain bad.

Unknown

He's the only two power character that got a total redesign instead of just having a third power added, and not only is the new power junk but the redo of his green is terrible. A lame CtS with friendly team damage? Pass. His red feeding blue might give him some gimmick PvE value, but that's about it.

It's a shame. I actually liked the old Rags. A good third power, color, and the ability to hit 166 like all the other cool kids could have made him a nicely usable character. Instead, total dumpster fire. Poor Rags. Poor, poor Rags. Can't even kick it.

Nylarx

The positives we can take from this is that he is now much more docile in PvE, and that my HP went up when I sold him.
Now, I just need to get another cover before he appears in Deadpool Daily - not because I want to rebuild him, but otherwise I will miss out on 2k ISO

Unknown

Nylarx wrote:

The positives we can take from this is that he is now much more docile in PvE, and that my HP went up when I sold him.
Now, I just need to get another cover before he appears in Deadpool Daily - not because I want to rebuild him, but otherwise I will miss out on 2k ISO

Hmm, does anyone know or have a link to what a level 140 Ragnarok will sell for? I'm trying to scrounge up some more HP for Professor X so I think I'll just sell every character that they're going to nerf, not because I think the nerf is bad but I need the HP!

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

Hmm, does anyone know or have a link to what a level 140 Ragnarok will sell for?

Sales price on my level 140 Rags is 1k HP. And 53,316 Iso, in case you were wondering.

simonsez

Everyone who's selling him, please remember he'll probably be the essential in the next PvE

Unknown

Thugpatrol wrote:

He's the only two power character that got a total redesign instead of just having a third power added, and not only is the new power junk but the redo of his green is terrible. A lame CtS with friendly team damage? Pass. His red feeding blue might give him some gimmick PvE value, but that's about it.

It's a shame. I actually liked the old Rags. A good third power, color, and the ability to hit 166 like all the other cool kids could have made him a nicely usable character. Instead, total dumpster fire. Poor Rags. Poor, poor Rags. Can't even kick it.

Honestly, if they had kept the green power the same, and added a blue power that, for 30 AP, cause 1 point of self damage, I'd like the changes more. I still think I'll use him in LRs, but he's actually worse in those than he used to be.

Unknown

I really wanted to like the new Rags. I think a character that has an inexpensive good ability that builds to a subpar expensive one, while tanking good colors and healing himself, would be really interesting. But his blue is freaking terrible. YOU BLEW IT