*** Ragnarok (Dark Avengers) ***

Phaserhawk

Phantron wrote:

camichan wrote:

Phantron wrote:

camichan wrote:

Serious question: Given recent comments on how Rags new blue may be a net detriment, has the optimal rags build become 5/5/0? If so, I'd be glad to soft cap him and warehouse him indefinitely, and put my scarce ISO elsewhere.

It's only a detriment if you're expecting him to somehow fend off opponents on defense. There are probably better use for iso 8 than leveling him, but I sure wouldn't purposely not get a blue cover. While it's true Lightning Rod could potentially hand a game away on offense, unlike Power Surge, Lightning Rod isn't used to power anything so if it looks like a situation where Lightning Rod can be detrimental you can just not use it. This isn't like Thor's case where not using Power Surge makes Smite do laughably low damage. Obviously there will be situations where you've to take a chance but if I'm that desperate I'll live with the consequences.

So 5/5/3 is a good bet for consensus on optimal coverage? (I had heard rumblings somewhere 3/5/5 was going to be, but that appears misled)

Neither Godlike Power nor Lightning Rod is all that great but I'd think Lightning Rod has a higher chance of being useful than Godlike Power. Since Ragnarok is never going to be in a heroic roster, you're just not going to find too many situations where enough other quality green users are missing so make Godlike Power a reliable pick, so you might as well go with Lightning Rod which at least can always accelerate green. I wouldn't worry about his covers either way because he sure doesn't look like he's going to be a go-to character you'd count on. Since most people probably already have 5/5/0 to start you might as well use 5/5/3 for a while and see it works out and it's not like you've to worry about blue Rag cover raining from the sky.

Agreed. Red is the only "good' power the rest suck, but since red accelerates to blue I figure I might as well go 3 5 5 over time, but like Phantron said, I'm not going to go crazy over getting blue.

Pure and simple, they have overestimated charged tiles to the same extreme as they underestimated them with 4hor. So they went very safe and have him only make 3 charged with the thinking, "he puts 9 AP on the board for 9 AP and gains health, this sounds right" except it's not. I hope they quickly buff his blue to create 5 charged tiles, since they are always green you can get away with less than 4hor who spread it over multiple colors.

jojeda654

SangFroid wrote:

Ok I won't argue that any increase in use is not a good thing. I will point out though that you are using him as a "replacement" for a 2 . Rags is a 3 that you are now using occasionaly when a "better" 2 is not available. That is NOT a good thing and does not speak well for Rags.

Well at least now we have a second blue battery. My IM40 is just rusting away...

cletus1985

SangFroid wrote:

Ok I won't argue that any increase in use is not a good thing. I will point out though that you are using him as a "replacement" for a 2 . Rags is a 3 that you are now using occasionaly when a "better" 2 is not available. That is NOT a good thing and does not speak well for Rags.

Honestly I used him a lot in the Gauntlet (him being buffed obviously helped) with Mags and Cstorm and he's the perfect compliment to those two. He's the necessary tank you have to have with them and he tanks red for Mags and green for Storm (I assume he would also tank blue fully leveled). Mine is only 3/0/1, so I can't speak with full knowledge here, but I would assume if he was maxed he would be the best complement to stormneto in the game, Mags creating blue and red for windstorm and either magnetic flux->more ap or Rags red->blue and more windstorms depending on the situation. His blue being a battery into green for Lightning Strike->more ap. These could be the best ap generating 3some other than Hood/Loki/OBW which doesn't exactly have great power moves outside of Pistols.

teknofyl

DFiPL wrote:

Kyllian wrote:

i recall some post that states the order the covers are placed is random...

What puzzles me is that they redone the char, made a pve event around him, now they're giving him as pvp rewards, yet he is off the tokens pool...

Unless I'm completely misunderstanding what's going on here (and I don't think I am) the cover rewards for the top 5 tiers (not counting the #1 overall reward) aren't random. The covers given out for a 2-150 finish are typically the characters due to have a PVP event next. I mean, that's anecdotal as hell, but I got Daken for a top 100 finish in the last event. Who's the required character for the next PVP? Daken.

And that's a trend I've been noticing for the last several weeks, if not months.

I'm gonna predict that the next PVP event is gonna be a Ragnarok event.

Not the character is random, the color... so which one is t5, t25 and t100. Absolutely the character is the next event one.

Marc_Spector

I'm still not sold on the value of his new blue @ 5 covers -- dropping green to 3 cuts its damage by half, but raising blue from 3->5 adds one more charged tile and a third more fake-healing.

As mentioned above, its not like blue covers are falling from the sky right now -- but I'm hoping by the time my Rags gets to 5/5/3 that the blue may have been slightly improved to add an extra charge tile or two @ max covers.

Unknown

MikeHock wrote:

New powers are almost always "randomly" chosen to be Top 5 rewards in PvP??

How convenient for D3. I call ****.

I know, I swear it's almost 1/3 the time!

Unknown

I like the idea of 5 blue but with so few charged tile you dont have a way of knowing if you will be able to match them
anyway, the distribution of covers sucks, all builds have to be 535, 355, 553, and those 3 covers usually make it useless, they should work on that
I think only OBW is decent with 3 purple, and all the rest feel a waste since you can't make more fun builds without wasting a skill

Unknown

Marc Spector wrote:

I'm still not sold on the value of his new blue @ 5 covers -- dropping green to 3 cuts its damage by half, but raising blue from 3->5 adds one more charged tile and a third more fake-healing.

As mentioned above, its not like blue covers are falling from the sky right now -- but I'm hoping by the time my Rags gets to 5/5/3 that the blue may have been slightly improved to add an extra charge tile or two @ max covers.

I'm going 355. The only time I see myself using rag is with xforce to form a loop. Also if any of his skills are ever revised, it's going to be the blue for more charged tiles.

His green is garbage imo

babinro

Handsome3314 wrote:

[anchor=ragnarok3]Ragnarok (Dark Avengers Thor)[/anchor]
3 Star Rarity (Rare) Discussion link. Wiki link.
At Max Level: HP: 8611 Tile damage: 11/61/11/12/61/12/3.0

Godlike Power - Green 14
Ragnarok slams his hammer down, releasing a wave of electricity that scars the battlefield. Deals 203 damage to all enemies and 137 to allies. Destroys a random column. Does not generate AP.

Level 2: Deals 266 damage to enemies and 137 to allies. Level 3: Deals 331 damage to enemies and 137 to allies. Level 4: Deals 461 damage to enemies and 137 to allies. Level 5: Deals 719 damage to enemies and 137 to allies.

MAX Level 5: Deals 2276 damage to all enemies and 435 to allies.

Thunderclap - Red 6
Ragnarok gathers dark clouds and calls down a bolt of lightning. Adds 2 Blue tiles to the board, then deals 71 damage.

Level 2: Convert 3 tiles. Level 3: Dealing 128 damage. Level 4: Convert 4 tiles. Level 5: Dealing 185 damage.

Max Level: 1175 damage

Lightning Rod - Blue 8
Ragnarok hurls his hammer into the thunderclouds, where it absorbs the power of the storm. Creates 1 Green Charged tile. Catching the hammer charges the cyborg with electricity, giving him a burst of 312 health.

Level 2: Creates 1 Charged tile. Ragnarok heals 371 health. Level 3: Creates 2 Charged tiles. Ragnarok heals 371 health. Level 4: Creates 2 Charged tiles. Ragnarok heals 480 health. Level 5: Creates 3 Charged tiles. Ragnarok heals 552 health.

MAX Level 5: Creates 3 Charged tiles. Ragnarok heals 1754 health.

IceIX wrote:

Kamala Khan (Ms. Marvel)
3 Star Rarity (Rare) Wiki Link
At Max Level: HP: 6800 Tile Damage: 79/13/12/70/61/11/3.5x

Bring Out The Best - Passive
(PASSIVE) Kamala's can-do attitude keeps her fighting and inspires everyone around her. Whenever an ally fires an ability, Ms. Marvel gives the team a burst of 110 health.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Gives the team a burst of 132 health. Level 3: Gives the team a burst of 154 health. Level 4: Gives the team a burst of 198 health. Level 5: Gives the team a burst of 286 health.

Max Level

Level 3 - Gives the team a burst of 487 health. Level 4 - Gives the team a burst of 626 health. Level 5 - Gives the team a burst of 905 health.

Inhuman Stretchiness - 8 AP
Ms. Marvel stretches to solve the situation at hand... by punching it. With her hand. Converts a chosen basic tile and 2 random basic tiles of the same color to Green.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Converts 3 additional random tiles to Green. Level 3: Converts 4 additional random tiles to Green. Level 4: Converts 5 additional random tiles to Green. Level 5: Converts 7 additional random tiles to Green.

Embiggened Bash - 12 AP
Ms. Marvel's embiggened fists of rage strike down her enemies! For justice! Deals 411 damage to the enemy team.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Deals 493 damage to the enemy team. Level 3: Deals 575 damage to the enemy team. Level 4: Deals 740 damage to the enemy team. Level 5: Deals 1069 damage to the enemy team.

Max Level

Level 3 - Deals 1826 damage to the enemy team. Level 4 - Deals 2347 damage to the enemy team. Level 5 - Deals 3390 damage to the enemy team.

How are these skills balanced?

I'm leaving out the fact that GSBW and Thor exist because those characters were made during vastly different times. Marvel and Rags are being release within 1 MONTH OF EACH OTHER. They should be subject to the same level of quality assurance/statistical analysis.

Why does Rags' green cost 2 AP more, deal 1114 LESS damage AND have a drawback?

I'll concede that both characters are an internal battery to generate green AP. It's easy to see why Marvel makes the superior green battery but they both work as one from a design view.

I'm left to think that the only justification here is the difference in health pools between the characters. Marvel has a lower health pool so her green is stronger. But does that really account for such an enormous difference in strength? Especially seeing as Marvels green initiates a team heal benefit?

I don't get this at all.

Seems to me you need run those numbers and correct this.
One of these characters are either WAY too weak or WAY too strong.

If I'm missing something here then please help me understand. This just doesn't add up though.

over_clocked

Ragnarok now has 10200 HP at max. I think he's not supposed to actually be good, being a clone and the like.

Pylgrim

over_clocked wrote:

Ragnarok now has 10200 HP at max. I think he's not supposed to actually be good, being a clone and the like.

Yeah, flavour justification is good and all but this is not MTG, with around 15k cards and around 250 new ones released every quarter, where they can justify the luxury of having "bad cards" for learning purposes or flavour. Ragnarok is one of 30-something 3*s in which players invest money and/or effort. There's no justification of a character to be purposefully weak just to make some flavour point. They simply dropped the ball with Ragnarok. Most likely it happened because he was released at the same time of the announcement of 4hor's nerf, and since he resembles her more in abilities than 3* Thor does, they figured that making Ragnarok seem too good would more pointedly make 4hor look like a glorified 3* post-nerf.

Basically, "hey it's okay for 4*s to be this weak, because 3*s can be this weak!"

scottee

They have some kind of internal valuation system that we can only guess on. Something like:
- damage is worth valuation = to its points
- each charged tile created = X value
- healing = X value per hp healed
- 1 column destroyed = X value
- self-team damage = -X value

I'm sure when they added up all their numbers and took into account health, they thought it was balanced. The player base just disagrees on the valuations.

I think Rags isn't as bad as people think. But not as good as the devs think. 3 charged green tiles are certainly valuable, but require gathering. People forget that the 1 vertical column destroyed does additional damage and can cause cascades, but it doesn't cascade as well as the old 2 columns destroyed. His red is pretty cheap and is about on par with Psylocke's cheap damage skills, though people don't value the blue generation as much as the devs, because unless you're playing with Mystique, getting blue just for Rag's heal isn't all that exciting.

I think overall he's pretty average, but people see him as especially weak right now because he's most often compared to LThor, who was the strongest 3* for a long time (until IF), and Kamala Khan, who is going to be top tier as well.

puppychow

I don't know if I see Kamala as top tier, because at 6.8k health is she is REAL squishy. With patch (same health) at least he could heal every turn. I hope ppl don't expect to rely on Kamala's passive yellow to keep HER alive during a match. If she's the only AoE character on the AI team, she'll be priority one to take out.

As for Rag vs. Kamala, I don't know who is better for my play style until I get to use Kamala for a few rounds. I don't know if I would bother using her green ability all that much because 12 green colors is a LOT. I suspect she would be great for a pve event, but not uber for pvp.

Unknown

It's not that Rags himself is bad, it's that Rags' is very very bad. Just... in every way. Does less damage for the same AP as Thor who has the same HP, does WAY less damage than KK and GSBW. The only reason to consider 5 green on Ragnarok is he's likely to be the last one alive, both on offense and on defense, and as his biggest offensive skill it can't really be ignored, but god is it terrible.

Best way to fix it, just make it cost 12. Clearly ~600 damage per AP on tanks is ok since we now have something like 850 damage per AP on a 6800 health guy, so why is Ragnarok doing so little damage? It'd be one thing if you could choose the column destroyed, or it destroyed the 2 center columns still, but as it stands the 1 column for about 500 damage plus the 2276 damage makes him about 525 damage per AP. And that's with team damage. At 12 AP it becomes ~610 damage per AP which is at least respectable.

puppychow

Frankly, I would use Rag strictly for his red ability. It's relatively quick damage, and even generates blue tiles with a possibility of random matching. I agree his green is lousy, and I have yet to fire his green ability even once. That's pretty amazing considering I'm up to 800 points in the current rag pvp event.

Unknown

Lerysh wrote:

It's not that Rags himself is bad, it's that Rags' is very very bad. Just... in every way. Does less damage for the same AP as Thor who has the same HP, does WAY less damage than KK and GSBW. The only reason to consider 5 green on Ragnarok is he's likely to be the last one alive, both on offense and on defense, and as his biggest offensive skill it can't really be ignored, but god is it terrible.

Best way to fix it, just make it cost 12. Clearly ~600 damage per AP on tanks is ok since we now have something like 850 damage per AP on a 6800 health guy, so why is Ragnarok doing so little damage? It'd be one thing if you could choose the column destroyed, or it destroyed the 2 center columns still, but as it stands the 1 column for about 500 damage plus the 2276 damage makes him about 525 damage per AP. And that's with team damage. At 12 AP it becomes ~610 damage per AP which is at least respectable.

He'd still be worse than Thor. We don't really need another Green Team Nuke character. I think Rags's main flaw is that his blue is so terrible, leaving him with only one usable ability that at least does some cheap damage but doesn't really have a helpful effect unless paired with Fury or cMags

Just make his blue do 1k more fake healing and create one more charge tile (or, keep it as is but reduce the cost to 6). Now we have a tanky support character who can tank red and green (both good colors) and boost blue and/or green powers for other characters, with a subpar green to fall back on if he's last man standing

Unknown

Yea, maybe, except you aren't going to see many team damage nukes outside of green. And if it has to be a green team damage nuke you may as well make it worth using. At 10 at least you could have the choice between the cheap damage now vs the better more AP damage of Thor. KK is going to blow both out of the water if you can get someone to tank green for her, which is everyone who has a green power, which makes Ragnarok actually decent when paired with KK, as you can use her purple to pick up the charge tiles generated by Rags.

Either way, at 14 AP you aren't using Ragnarok until he's the only green option left.

babinro

puppychow wrote:

Frankly, I would use Rag strictly for his red ability. It's relatively quick damage, and even generates blue tiles with a possibility of random matching. I agree his green is lousy, and I have yet to fire his green ability even once. That's pretty amazing considering I'm up to 800 points in the current rag pvp event.

I'll agree with you there.

I plan to actually use Rags in the PvP as a blue AP engine to fuel Fury's Demolition.

Unknown

Abilities aren't designed in a vacuum. Give aggressive recon to Dino and he becomes a tier 1 character.

wymtime

Something else to consider is the fact that Rags is a consistan villian in PVE. Because of this he will consistantly scale to higher and higher levels. By giving him a poorer green it makes him easier to deal with. Think of Khan at level 300 that green would stupid broken. Rags will have goons feeding him green fo 14 AP he will do damage, but he will not make you throw your phone. For players he will be 3,5,5 and he will feed someone else green while taking for others. For the AI he will be a pain caus damage and probably kill himself sometimes, but he will not be broken