*** Ragnarok (Dark Avengers) ***

ErikPeter

From playing against him in the PvE I think he's a pretty solid character. The "minor" damage from Thunderclap scales pretty high and the heal from Lightning Rod isn't insignificant either. He has gone from being the DA I take down last to the DA I take down first, especially with the green/blue generation feeding Daken. (Who, in PvE, seems to be more powerful when over-leveled.) He's even gotten a couple of those annoying cascade chains going. Having deleted him once a long time ago, my Rags is only 3/2/0, sitting at 40, but I will be excited to try him out in the new bluespam meta.

Edit to add: I also like that Lightning Rod creates green, which could then fuel Lightning Storm or Call the Storm.

john1620b

timber wrote:

Anybody else feel like his animations are all mixed up? I think his former animation for Godlike Power should be the new Lightning Rod. The new Godlike Power should be like Thor's Mjolnir's Might. And Thunderclap could be....um....

Yes! The biggest thing (well, maybe not the *biggest* thing...) that bothers me about his change is his red ability animation changing. That one was my favorite.

Unknown

Can you guys rename the blue power to "just hand over the match why don't you?"

Unknown

EpicBeastmode wrote:

Can you guys rename the blue power to "just hand over the match why don't you?"

Maybe when the AI uses it, and I'm not complaining about that.

dkffiv

ErikPeter wrote:

From playing against him in the PvE I think he's a pretty solid character. The "minor" damage from Thunderclap scales pretty high and the heal from Lightning Rod isn't insignificant either. He has gone from being the DA I take down last to the DA I take down first, especially with the green/blue generation feeding Daken. (Who, in PvE, seems to be more powerful when over-leveled.) He's even gotten a couple of those annoying cascade chains going. Having deleted him once a long time ago, my Rags is only 3/2/0, sitting at 40, but I will be excited to try him out in the new bluespam meta.

Edit to add: I also like that Lightning Rod creates green, which could then fuel Lightning Storm or Call the Storm.

Thunderclap is unchanged and overall weaker, I'd much rather him gain blue AP than green. His LR heal is meh and its nice that the player can usually take advantage of the charged tiles. He cascades far less than he used to and his damage is much lower than it used to be (eating a green + red every turn when he was 300+ resulted in several thousand damage) - his green is basically unusable without a feeder goon. Think about how hard it is to get off CotS and Thor has an excellent skill for green ap generation.

I'd rather him do something like eat all the charged tiles on the board, doing x damage per but not generating AP. Maybe keep red the way it was and green the same except in addition it would generate a few charged tiles. Barring interaction with charged tiles, have the new ability generate strike tiles and keep the old green and red the same.

Unknown

I recently levelled Rags to 140. I primarily used his red to fuel certain green abilities but he still felt quite lacking. I actually like this new ability setup. Why? Because I often use X-force and Doom. They have powerful abilities that can really wreck any team but I always needed a good red ability. Rags was sometimes a part of that team and I think he will still be so. Activating his cheap red will propel me into Doom's blue ability faster, which in turn propels me into X-force's black even faster. I can definitely see a lot of incoming pain for the enemy team here. Used right, X-force black wins the whole fight for you.

However, in a vacuum, I still see this new Rag version as quite useful. He's a tank, he has a blue ability (which I often lack on my teams) that will both keep him alive longer and accelerate green abilities (at least his own, if not anything else), his red is still cheap and useful and his green is damaging enough and definitely better than his old green.

Overall, this new Ragnarok will be even more useful for me, so I'm pleased. 553 will probably be the most useful build for me.

dkffiv

Daige wrote:

I recently levelled Rags to 140. I primarily used his red to fuel certain green abilities but he still felt quite lacking. I actually like this new ability setup. Why? Because I often use X-force and Doom. They have powerful abilities that can really wreck any team but I always needed a good red ability. Rags was sometimes a part of that team and I think he will still be so. Activating his cheap red will propel me into Doom's blue ability faster, which in turn propels me into X-force's black even faster. I can definitely see a lot of incoming pain for the enemy team here. Used right, X-force black wins the whole fight for you.

However, in a vacuum, I still see this new Rag version as quite useful. He's a tank, he has a blue ability (which I often lack on my teams) that will both keep him alive longer and accelerate green abilities (at least his own, if not anything else), his red is still cheap and useful and his green is damaging enough and definitely better than his old green.

Overall, this new Ragnarok will be even more useful for me, so I'm pleased. 553 will probably be the most useful build for me.

I feel like LThor will serve you better in any situation where you'd consider using Rag.

If you're looking for a blue user, I'd take Beast, Black Panther, Captain America, Daredevil, Daken, Doctor Doom, Magneto, Rocket & Groot or Spider-Man over him. Psylocke is about even and his blue is better than IM40.

His green is a lot worse than his old one and his blue brings nothing to the table.

Trilateralus

dkffiv wrote:

Daige wrote:

I recently levelled Rags to 140. I primarily used his red to fuel certain green abilities but he still felt quite lacking. I actually like this new ability setup. Why? Because I often use X-force and Doom. They have powerful abilities that can really wreck any team but I always needed a good red ability. Rags was sometimes a part of that team and I think he will still be so. Activating his cheap red will propel me into Doom's blue ability faster, which in turn propels me into X-force's black even faster. I can definitely see a lot of incoming pain for the enemy team here. Used right, X-force black wins the whole fight for you.

However, in a vacuum, I still see this new Rag version as quite useful. He's a tank, he has a blue ability (which I often lack on my teams) that will both keep him alive longer and accelerate green abilities (at least his own, if not anything else), his red is still cheap and useful and his green is damaging enough and definitely better than his old green.

Overall, this new Ragnarok will be even more useful for me, so I'm pleased. 553 will probably be the most useful build for me.

I feel like LThor will serve you better in any situation where you'd consider using Rag.

If you're looking for a blue user, I'd take Beast, Black Panther, Captain America, Daredevil, Daken, Doctor Doom, Magneto, Rocket & Groot or Spider-Man over him. Psylocke is about even and his blue is better than IM40.

His green is a lot worse than his old one and his blue brings nothing to the table.

I find it hard to believe you'd actually take Beast over Ragnarok. Beast is widely considered the worst 3* to the point of being virtually unusable and Daige specifically said he would use Rags to accelerate Dooms

I also disagree that his is worse now. Vastly slower yes, but having played against him in the Hunt it packs a punch and the self damage is minimal compared to someone like Sentry. I do agree LThor is better in almost any situation if you have him. His is pretty unimpressive but it can help sustain him.

Unknown

It's the "L.Thor is better in any situation if you have him" that makes his green a steaming pile of garbage.

Compare:
BP: 3700 team damage, give away 5 AP, costs 12
Thor: ~2300 team damage bonus 2300 on target, costs 14
GSBW: 3912 team damage, bonus tile break damge on target, cost 19
Rags: 2276 team damage, self team damage 435, costs 14. <- WTH is this power trying to do here?

Rags green is inferior to many existing team damage powers, and a candidate for 3 covers. Rags himself becomes Red -> Blue -> Green charges for any other green user and you have his green to back you up if he's last man standing. It wouldn't take much to push it the other way, a cost or 12 or maybe 10 would do it.

The idea that "he's ok when facing him in PvE so he must be good on my team" is false. He's over leveled over covered green fed on those nodes. Not an accurate picture of reality.

Ludaa

I think this is a case where they OVERVALUED charged tiles. The chance you get to match even one of those three green charged tiles right after they're placed is slim. That means the AI might slop into them in further turns. So, 14ap just seems wrong to me. That leaves him as a tank that feeds pretty well.

3/5/5 because his green stinks, 5/5/3 because bursts of healing only help the PvE AI. 0/5/0 for team ups?

Trilateralus

Lerysh wrote:

It's the "L.Thor is better in any situation if you have him" that makes his green a steaming pile of garbage.

Compare:
BP: 3700 team damage, give away 5 AP, costs 12
Thor: ~2300 team damage bonus 2300 on target, costs 14
GSBW: 3912 team damage, bonus tile break damge on target, cost 19
Rags: 2276 team damage, self team damage 435, costs 14. <- WTH is this power trying to do here?

Rags green is inferior to many existing team damage powers, and a candidate for 3 covers. Rags himself becomes Red -> Blue -> Green charges for any other green user and you have his green to back you up if he's last man standing. It wouldn't take much to push it the other way, a cost or 12 or maybe 10 would do it.

The idea that "he's ok when facing him in PvE so he must be good on my team" is false. He's over leveled over covered green fed on those nodes. Not an accurate picture of reality.

Don't get me wrong, I agree he's bad. I don't have a team I'd put him on but the suggestion that Beast would be a better choice was ridiculous.

Unknown

His red was a good ability, even after the nerf: half a Thor yellow, for half the cost.

That said, I think one of new-Rag's biggest problems is a shocking lack of good blue abilities.
For 3*, there's cMags blue, and what else? If we look at other rarities, 4* have Fury, I guess, and 2* have cStorm.

Rag's blue seems weak, although to be fair, I have no experience with it. I guess it's kind of an anti-Thor red . Similar healing to Thor's damage, and if you have a green match available, you will probably gain a little AP on the following match. Probably best used if a green Surgical Strike is about to go off.

The green looks awful. I'd have to take a closer look at the exact numbers, but I believe it probably gives IM40 blue a run for its money as far as overcosted/underpowered AoE attacks are concerned.

dkffiv

Trilateralus wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I agree he's bad. I don't have a team I'd put him on but the suggestion that Beast would be a better choice was ridiculous.

In a situation where I only need a blue ability (like if I've decided on human torch and xforce) and I had a choice between a maxed rag or a maxed beast, I think beast is the better option. Granted there are probably better 2* options but comparing just those two I think beast edges him out.

Unknown

WolfmanX25 wrote:

That said, I think one of new-Rag's biggest problems is a shocking lack of good blue abilities.
For 3*, there's cMags blue, and what else? If we look at other rarities, 4* have Fury, I guess, and 2* have cStorm.

I enjoy Grocket's blue and Doom's blue works as a nice black battery.

Trilateralus

dkffiv wrote:

Trilateralus wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I agree he's bad. I don't have a team I'd put him on but the suggestion that Beast would be a better choice was ridiculous.

In a situation where I only need a blue ability (like if I've decided on human torch and xforce) and I had a choice between a maxed rag or a maxed beast, I think beast is the better option. Granted there are probably better 2* options but comparing just those two I think beast edges him out.

Couldn't disagree more. While Rags blue isn't great Beast's is just terrible. Even boosted I can't think of a situation where Beast is good as anything but a meat shield. Also if you're going with HT and XF you're missing purple as well, you're better off with Doom or Mystique. Really HT and XF are just a bad match, bringing Beast is just asking to lose.

dkffiv

Trilateralus wrote:

dkffiv wrote:

Trilateralus wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I agree he's bad. I don't have a team I'd put him on but the suggestion that Beast would be a better choice was ridiculous.

In a situation where I only need a blue ability (like if I've decided on human torch and xforce) and I had a choice between a maxed rag or a maxed beast, I think beast is the better option. Granted there are probably better 2* options but comparing just those two I think beast edges him out.

Couldn't disagree more. While Rags blue isn't great Beast's is just terrible. Even boosted I can't think of a situation where Beast is good as anything but a meat shield. Also if you're going with HT and XF you're missing purple as well, you're better off with Doom or Mystique. Really HT and XF are just a bad match, bringing Beast is just asking to lose.

Beast's blue is bad because you almost never get the 4 special tiles (I think you average either 1 or 2) but I'd rather have 2 strength 105 tiles than a temp heal and potentially giving the enemy charged tiles. I think the new Rag is on the level of Beast bad. Yes, there are many other choices but if you had the option of a 166 Rag or 166 Beast I would choose Beast. Again, I'm not recommending that you level either of them, but if I was given the choice of those two potential teams I'd side with Beast. Similarly if there was a node where there were no blue or green users besides Beast or Rag, I'd pick the Rag node because I think it'd be easier.

HT + Xforce + Nick Fury is a fairly good team, Torch is one of the best spammable reds. If you surgical into a stockpile of red, torch can do some serious damage (if there are at least 2 red left on the board).

Trilateralus

I won't argue about the effectiveness of HT's red. It just seems like a poor choice to bring such a fragile character on the off chance that SS gets you red.

dkffiv

Trilateralus wrote:

I won't argue about the effectiveness of HT's red. It just seems like a poor choice to bring such a fragile character on the off chance that SS gets you red.

Xforce tanks green and black for him and you only match red when its really worth it / safe. Its especially effective if the enemy's strongest color is red (Capt. Marvel, L/4Thor, enemy Torch, IM40, Sentry come off the top of my head). Fragile has nothing to do with it, I take OBW/GSBW/Hood against 395 teams all the time, its a matter of making sure they aren't out front if an ability goes off.

Trilateralus

dkffiv wrote:

Trilateralus wrote:

I won't argue about the effectiveness of HT's red. It just seems like a poor choice to bring such a fragile character on the off chance that SS gets you red.

Xforce tanks green and black for him and you only match red when its really worth it / safe. Its especially effective if the enemy's strongest color is red (Capt. Marvel, L/4Thor, enemy Torch, IM40, Sentry come off the top of my head). Fragile has nothing to do with it, I take OBW/GSBW/Hood against 395 teams all the time, its a matter of making sure they aren't out front if an ability goes off.

I get the theory but XF is tanking green and black because you're not going to use HT's.

Unknown

Due to characters like Thor and X Force (who has a lot more HP than he appears) people seem to have this idea that the guy with the highest HP is also supposed to have the best moves. That simply cannot make sense from a balance point of view. Ragnarok was probably #4 in the DA lineup prior to this change but the guys ahead of him are Juggernaut, Daken, and Ares. All those 3 guys would be unbelieveably overpowered if we could get them at the level DAs get them at, so that wasn't saying much. Godlike Power (original) is actually a very strong power and it's not because the AI secretly activates a 'better cascade' button when they use it. For his HP class he seems pretty balanced now. Sure, the AI has a tendency to commit suicide with Lightning Rod but that's no different than Thor (4*) after the nerf. Charged tiles are supposed to be risky and thus not that good for defense, but there's still PvE where you don't have to worry about defense. No he doesn't compare well with the guys who have both HPs and the best moves but those guys are supposed to be some kind of aberration.