I finally had a chance to play with him in PvE today (mine is lvl435, 4/4/4, sadly I only had one 370 Nebula).
He's...fine. Really! I'm running him with 672 Starlord and Thanos, and his passive gives him something like 60k additional health at the start of the match. I think it might be true heal, by accident. I was trying to work it out -- I think if he takes less than 60k damage in the fight, then it doesn't "count" (or maybe I'm too dumb to track it correctly).
I didn't notice his AP generation because it's pretty slow, and his blue active didn't seem worth casting -- the damage feels low, and the "reduce enemy's effectiveness"/stun part of it doesn't get the value up to 8ap at the 5* tier.
In that team, I'm only allowed to fire his active yellow on himself, for some reason, but it gives him like 20,000 health. The match damage boost was noticeable but not great, and the ability probably isn't worth 6ap.
I have no idea how his black calculates, but when I cast it, it hit very hard. It feels like enough damage for an 8ap single-target 5* power.
So, like, he's fine. He's not good, and I will never use him unboosted. But he's not Abigail (who has one ok power and two powers that do nothing at all), or pre-buff Wasp (who did exactly nothing), or some of the old 5* like BSS that are badly undertuned for today's MPQ. He's an average 5* in 2023.
Our goal with any character is to place them in at least the top 1/3 of characters of that tier.
Does he fall within the top 1/3 of 5 stars?
@Zarqa said: Our goal with any character is to place them in at least the top 1/3 of characters of that tier. Does he fall within the top 1/3 of 5 stars?
@Zarqa said:
I think you're asking me this? I'll answer anyway!
Well, I'll tell you why I can't answer, more specifically. In the current MPQ meta, I don't believe it's possible to do a ranking of 5*. (Or, at least, I couldn't do this). To me, 5* today fall into 3 general tiers: usable unboosted (this is Chasm, Thor, etc), usable only when boosted (this is like 90% of them), not usable even when boosted (Abigail, Heimdall, BSS, Black Widow, etc).
The "usable unboosted" tier is very small -- way less than 1/3 of the tier. Most 5* fall into the "only when boosted" tier, and that's where I'd put this guy.
(I also think the top and bottom tiers shouldn't exist at all, and are a huge problem, for whatever that's worth. In a world where characters get +100 levels, anybody getting that boost should be good, and nobody unboosted should be better than them.)
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@eb The health boost of 60k you quoted seems too high. Running Evo at 435 with 4 yellow, the boost should be 115/295 * 100% * base health (I will assume 90k for lvl 435) = 35k boost.
I think your observation about this health boost being true heal, matches what I have seen with the 3* version in his pvp.
Your black should be dealing 10% of the target max. health, which will be considerable if you are fighting against lvl 672 opposition, but only as permanent damage to their max. health not their current health.
So...maybe he's bugged, or the descriptions are wrong? Mine is going from 170k health to 230k health when the fight starts. I'll try to get a screenshot of the boost happening.
Also, his black ability is doing WAY more than 10% of the enemy's max health.
Here's a video of the start of a match:
https://streamable.com/2dr65k
Maybe someone can do the math and figure out what's going on here. I boosted black hoping to get a couple easy black matches and fire that power, but...well...no such luck.
@entrailbucket said: Here's a video of the start of a match: https://streamable.com/2dr65k Maybe someone can do the math and figure out what's going on here. I boosted black hoping to get a couple easy black matches and fire that power, but...well...no such luck.
@entrailbucket said: Here's a video of the start of a match:
550 Thanos - 435 Evo = 115 115 / 295 * 100% = 38%
You got 38% boost on health and match damage. Boost levels are ignore, but boost health and match damage are not.
@SourCream said: @entrailbucket said: Here's a video of the start of a match: https://streamable.com/2dr65k Maybe someone can do the math and figure out what's going on here. I boosted black hoping to get a couple easy black matches and fire that power, but...well...no such luck. 550 Thanos - 435 Evo = 115 115 / 295 * 100% = 38% You got 38% boost on health and match damage. Boost levels are ignore, but boost health and match damage are not.
@SourCream said:
I'm not sure what this means overall, but in using him, I felt like the bonus mattered, and it was more than I thought it'd be.
@entrailbucket said: So...maybe he's bugged, or > @SourCream said: @entrailbucket said: Here's a video of the start of a match: https://streamable.com/2dr65k Maybe someone can do the math and figure out what's going on here. I boosted black hoping to get a couple easy black matches and fire that power, but...well...no such luck. 550 Thanos - 435 Evo = 115 115 / 295 * 100% = 38% You got 38% boost on health and match damage. Boost levels are ignore, but boost health and match damage are not. I'm not sure what this means overall, but in using him, I felt like the bonus mattered, and it was more than I thought it'd be.
@entrailbucket said: So...maybe he's bugged, or > @SourCream said:
@entrailbucket said: Here's a video of the start of a match: https://streamable.com/2dr65k Maybe someone can do the math and figure out what's going on here. I boosted black hoping to get a couple easy black matches and fire that power, but...well...no such luck. 550 Thanos - 435 Evo = 115 115 / 295 * 100% = 38% You got 38% boost on health and match damage. Boost levels are ignore, but boost health and match damage are not.
For PVE, it's not a meaningful number. 38% match damage, you can get more simply by buying +50% boost with 100 ISO. Colossus gets 126% just for existing. If ability damage is given too, also not meaningful, Emma is 70% just for existing too. Extra health is nice, but do you really need it ? Anyhow, all the extra % is given to Evo only, not your 550s.
@SourCream said: @entrailbucket said: So...maybe he's bugged, or > @SourCream said: @entrailbucket said: Here's a video of the start of a match: https://streamable.com/2dr65k Maybe someone can do the math and figure out what's going on here. I boosted black hoping to get a couple easy black matches and fire that power, but...well...no such luck. 550 Thanos - 435 Evo = 115 115 / 295 * 100% = 38% You got 38% boost on health and match damage. Boost levels are ignore, but boost health and match damage are not. I'm not sure what this means overall, but in using him, I felt like the bonus mattered, and it was more than I thought it'd be. For PVE, it's not a meaningful number. 38% match damage, you can get more simply by buying +50% boost with 100 ISO. Colossus gets 126% just for existing. If ability damage is given too, also not meaningful, Emma is 70% just for existing too. Extra health is nice, but do you really need it ? Anyhow, all the extra % is given to Evo only, not your 550s.
Oh, don't get me wrong -- he is in no way good, and I hope that whole long post made that pretty clear. But he's also not Abigail or Black Widow-level bad.
@dianetics said:@entrailbucket He has a mini god boost. How do his natural powers compare against like level heroes? He uses 1 entire power slot to push him up or his partners. So does his black hit harder than Elektro? As a like level hero where does he land? Would you use him over Gargantos? Do you think he is better than Crystal?
@dianetics said:@entrailbucket He has a mini god boost. How do his natural powers compare against like level heroes?
He uses 1 entire power slot to push him up or his partners. So does his black hit harder than Elektro?
As a like level hero where does he land? Would you use him over Gargantos? Do you think he is better than Crystal?
See...like...I can't answer this now. The boosts have completely ruined my ability to think this way. Based on what everyone else said, and my own reading of his powers, I expected him to be in the "not usable even when boosted," absolute bottom-feeder tier.
But he was, shockingly...fine. I'd probably not pick him over Crystal or Gargantos when they're boosted, but I don't know if I'll ever have to make that decision. I'd certainly pick him over Crystal or Gargantos when he's boosted and they're not!
@dianetics said: So he is niche at best. I will ask it another way then...would ever take him not boosted? Crystal is a toon that has value not boosted Gargantos is one that does not.
@dianetics said: So he is niche at best.
I will ask it another way then...would ever take him not boosted? Crystal is a toon that has value not boosted Gargantos is one that does not.
I only used him with the boost, but unless I'm missing something huge I can't ever see using him unboosted.
I think that's what I'm saying, though -- most 5* are the same way. There's, what, like 80 5* now? And there's 10 in the good tier and 10 in the trash tier, and everybody else is meh unless they get +100 levels that week. High Evolutionary is squarely in the meh tier.
@dianetics said: @entrailbucket said: High Evolutionary is squarely in the meh tier. TBH I think you are overvaluing him. He wont benefit when he is boosted. His fired powers are weird. Unless he massively over healths the opposing team his usage will be minimal. Honestly from user reporting Fatpin has more value than him.
@dianetics said:
@entrailbucket said: High Evolutionary is squarely in the meh tier.
TBH I think you are overvaluing him. He wont benefit when he is boosted. His fired powers are weird. Unless he massively over healths the opposing team his usage will be minimal.
Honestly from user reporting Fatpin has more value than him.
Maybe! It certainly wouldn't be the first time, or the last.
But also: I have Kingpin at like lvl510 or something and after his buff, dude completely wrecks face when he's boosted. So I'm not sure how much I trust those reports, plus my roster is very weird. I'll be trivially stomping on 550 Chasms with 672 Starlord this week (who is also meh unless boosted).
So what is happening is the boost % is calculated using his unboosted lvl, and is then applied to his boosted stats.
The interesting thing about this is that if you are only ever going to use him during a boost week, then you want him underleveled.
@eb's Evo is level 435 which gives him a 38% boost (115/295 = 38% rounded down) That boost is applied to his boosted stats at lvl 525, raising his health from 170k to 234k
A level 550 Evo only has 206k health
And if Evo had 5 yellows, the boost% would be 38% * 140% = 53% and his health would be 260k.
Would be interesting to work out the optimum level for him for boost week. Would need health data for all levels to calculate this, and I can't intuitively say what it would be.
There's something else going on here, too, though.
I reread his powers, and there's a second part to his black ability that cares about how much more health he has than whatever enemy he's hitting with it. I think that's why I found the damage on it to be... acceptable (it wasn't shockingly good or anything, but it wasn't BAD).
So I'm not sure if you want him underleveled, in that case. It seems like there's no good way to optimize him, because either his yellow will suck or his black will suck
Probably because I am a maths nerd!
I say this, the 5* version might be meh but the 3* version is an incredible tank in PvP.
I ran into a few teams with him baby champed (L168 type thing) and he was boosted to 270 in his PvP. When I fought the team his health was boosted into the 80K range because I was using boosted Grocket (mine is 473 boosted). So this 3* had 5* champ health which was way more than his 2 L380 4*s or my boosted Grocket. I just retreated right away rather than attempt to chew that.
Once he's max champed at 266 when he's boosted he'll have well over 100K health when fighting 5* champs. That's just nuts for a 3* character.
KGB
@KGB said: I say this, the 5* version might be meh but the 3* version is an incredible tank in PvP. I ran into a few teams with him baby champed (L168 type thing) and he was boosted to 270 in his PvP. When I fought the team his health was boosted into the 80K range because I was using boosted Grocket (mine is 473 boosted). So this 3* had 5* champ health which was way more than his 2 L380 4*s or my boosted Grocket. I just retreated right away rather than attempt to chew that. Once he's max champed at 266 when he's boosted he'll have well over 100K health when fighting 5* champs. That's just nuts for a 3* character. KGB
@KGB said: I say this, the 5* version might be meh but the 3* version is an incredible tank in PvP.
I was thinking the same thing today. That version is gonna be a beast for newer rosters.
Ultraman>>better than robocop. The 3* version very well could be the main reason this character will be hugely popular. If his increased health is true heal this character could help a lot 4* and 3* players, while the 5* version is just another meh character more.
