@Bowgentle said: Again, this community is very bad at evaluating stuff on paper. I'll wait and see how he plays.
I think you overstate this point most of the time. . .but not in this instance. This kit is extremely complex and does new/unique things. It's anyone's guess what these descriptions actually mean, let alone how they will interact with the rest of the game, so I don't think it's really possible to evaluate this kit on paper.
Soooo... will we get a banner for every single match of the enemy plus a repeater placement animation? So for a cascade of 2-3 matches we'll wait like a minute for our next move, like on chasm mirroring?
Please get these boring delays fixed before dishing out passives like this one 🫶
@Bowgentle said: @entrailbucket said: @Bowgentle said: Again, this community is very bad at evaluating stuff on paper. I'll wait and see how he plays. I'd say the community is pretty bad at evaluating complex ability sets without using the character (and part of this is due to absolutely baffling, bizarre wording chosen in ability descriptions). Most of the significant misses happened because a character's abilities just didn't make sense on paper. Like, now I have a really good idea of all the stuff Chasm does, and I have no idea what any of his abilities actually say, or how I'd write descriptions of those abilities. Characters with relatively uncomplicated, vanilla type abilities tend to get evaluated pretty accurately. This particular guy is exactly the opposite of uncomplicated. Yeah they seem to be in love with complicated skill sets. One could argue they should get their basic stuff in order before adding more complexity. But of course that would be "the players", holding the devs back.
@Bowgentle said:
@entrailbucket said: @Bowgentle said: Again, this community is very bad at evaluating stuff on paper. I'll wait and see how he plays. I'd say the community is pretty bad at evaluating complex ability sets without using the character (and part of this is due to absolutely baffling, bizarre wording chosen in ability descriptions). Most of the significant misses happened because a character's abilities just didn't make sense on paper. Like, now I have a really good idea of all the stuff Chasm does, and I have no idea what any of his abilities actually say, or how I'd write descriptions of those abilities. Characters with relatively uncomplicated, vanilla type abilities tend to get evaluated pretty accurately. This particular guy is exactly the opposite of uncomplicated.
@entrailbucket said:
I'd say the community is pretty bad at evaluating complex ability sets without using the character (and part of this is due to absolutely baffling, bizarre wording chosen in ability descriptions).
Most of the significant misses happened because a character's abilities just didn't make sense on paper. Like, now I have a really good idea of all the stuff Chasm does, and I have no idea what any of his abilities actually say, or how I'd write descriptions of those abilities.
Characters with relatively uncomplicated, vanilla type abilities tend to get evaluated pretty accurately.
This particular guy is exactly the opposite of uncomplicated.
Yeah they seem to be in love with complicated skill sets. One could argue they should get their basic stuff in order before adding more complexity. But of course that would be "the players", holding the devs back.
It's tough, I mean...this game is deeper than it looks, but it's not THAT deep. They don't have infinite design space for these characters, like you might have in a game that was more complex, with more mechanical levers you could design for.
It's really pretty impressive that we have however many characters, they're (mostly) all distinct, and they still manage to come up with new ideas like this guy, or Chasm, or Kang.
I guess I don't fault them that much for making complicated stuff, because the other guys sorta already made most of the possible simple powers.
@Gymp28 said: Well, as a player whose roster is ~450 i’m excited for this character! As others have pointed out his yellow passive appears to mean that as long as you bring a god boosted character he himself can get up to a 140% boost to health and all damage! Furthermore he’ll be giving up to a 70% boost to health and all damage to his teammates including the already naturally god boosted character…. What phrase shall we coin for this boost? Turbo God? Giga God (GG boost has an apt ring to it, as it rapidly heralds the end of the match… good game!).
@Gymp28 said: Well, as a player whose roster is ~450 i’m excited for this character! As others have pointed out his yellow passive appears to mean that as long as you bring a god boosted character he himself can get up to a 140% boost to health and all damage! Furthermore he’ll be giving up to a 70% boost to health and all damage to his teammates including the already naturally god boosted character….
What phrase shall we coin for this boost? Turbo God? Giga God (GG boost has an apt ring to it, as it rapidly heralds the end of the match… good game!).
I'm thinking its not gonna work that way. It says boosts team up to his level. I take that as if he is say a level 450 then he only boosts allies per level up to that point. And characters higher than that get no boost at all.
I'm expecting something with this yellow power to change here pre-release.
Wall of text incoming ...
I like the character idea of %boosting allies and %diminishing enemies, but I think this good idea is bloated with passives and conditions that add very little value. Blurring his role into support/soaking seems a bit weird.
some specifics thoughts :
All in all Several good ideas stitched together that look close but works differently . I want to test him to see how it pans out in game
P.S. : I think in general, add and remove ap for free are BAD, unless there is counterplay. I'm pretty sure lucky T1 cascade followed by getting nuked by ap generated by hevo passive can be a solid source of frustration, reminiscent to getting mandatory 3* killed by chasm T1 cascade.
I hope they don't change his blue passive, that's the most interesting part to me. Instead of using valkyrie, melinda, or deathlok I can bring someone that can actually pitch in with the fight also. And since it's not YOUR strongest color, it's not unbalanced, but can be a nice perk if it works out to something you can use.
It might make me actually more willing to fight some mthor teams lol.
He feels like a 3,5,5 to me. Also he will not need to be one of you high level characters. In fact he will be better as a lower level character that lets his yellow give him a huge boost in health. It will also boost his black damage.
Black will be best as a first hit on an opponent and high health opponents overall.
I see the value of blue on a long match, but in PVP or PVE how many times does you opponent really make 10+ matches?? I see the occasional value in blue especially if he ends up to pair with a better black user.
I could be wrong, but 3,5,5 feels like the better build
@wymtime said: Black will be best as a first hit on an opponent and high health opponents overall.
I disagree here. Black works best as a finishing move when the opponent is low on health. The reason is the bonus damage gets higher when the opponent has less health since the difference part is always calculated against your 'max health'.
Example Both characters have 90K health. If you fire Black, you only do 12% damage = 10.8K permanent damage Enemy character has 30K health. If you fire black you do 3.6K permanent damage + (90-30)*.18 = 10.8 = 14.4 damage.
Once the enemy reaches ~15K you will down them.
KGB
Blue is very thematic. The longer the fight goes...The more time you allow EVO to plot and plan (sort of like Sinister). His Research Counters seem to be similar in a sense to Shang's Combo points and more so Big Wheel's Speed points... Suppose Research points does not have a ring to it, but you get the idea.
Yellow could add another layer to MPQ gameplay. For 550 5's it could let you bring along any one of the 4's and potentially boost them up to a viable threat. When boosted, EVO can bump up any unboosted. B-Champ 5*'s and below get even more possibilities.
Could feel like the Lost in Time: Balancing Act event
@darkwatcherDEZ said: **Yellow could add another layer to MPQ gameplay. For 550 5's it could let you bring along any one of the 4's and potentially boost them up to a viable threat. **When boosted, EVO can bump up any unboosted. B-Champ 5*'s and below get even more possibilities.
@darkwatcherDEZ said:
**Yellow could add another layer to MPQ gameplay. For 550 5's it could let you bring along any one of the 4's and potentially boost them up to a viable threat. **When boosted, EVO can bump up any unboosted. B-Champ 5*'s and below get even more possibilities.
This is what I hope for the most. Some of the soft-cappers have said that they want to stay where 4* are still useful, and I get that given the large 4 roster and how fun team-building can be. Hevo sounds like he can add some tier synergy that was missing before. If this is the goal behind his kit, he sounds very interesting. As someone looking to transition to 5* it sounds like he might be he helpful there too. If his yellow is worded correctly (I really hope it is, but I worry they might mean highest level on his team rather than highest on either team), it sounds like he could also be useful and fun on pve nodes.
I agree that his complicated description ensures that we need to see how he really works before making any judgments; but if he does make a lot more teams viable in difficult encounters, I am fine with how complicated his powers are.
@dianetics said: @KGB said: I disagree here. Black works best as a finishing move when the opponent is low on health. The reason is the bonus damage gets higher when the opponent has less health since the difference part is always calculated against your 'max health'. I think your reading of the ability is wrong. "Then if his maximum health is greater than the target's" It appears that bonus damage is based on the opponents maximum health not current health. So it should be used as an opener.
@dianetics said:
@KGB said: I disagree here. Black works best as a finishing move when the opponent is low on health. The reason is the bonus damage gets higher when the opponent has less health since the difference part is always calculated against your 'max health'.
I think your reading of the ability is wrong. "Then if his maximum health is greater than the target's" It appears that bonus damage is based on the opponents maximum health not current health. So it should be used as an opener.
So you're reading 'his' as 'his opponents' health? I read 'his maximum health' as meaning High Evolutionary's max health (including any bonus health from his Yellow boost) since target clearly refers to the target your damaging.
In other words, you get the 2nd part of the damage if High Evolutionary's max health is > targets current health.
This is just one example of a few odd wording choices on this guy...I have a feeling that when we start using him his powerset will make sense, but until then I don't think we can judge too well.
This could force people into some tough decisions. > @KGB said:
@dianetics said: @KGB said: I disagree here. Black works best as a finishing move when the opponent is low on health. The reason is the bonus damage gets higher when the opponent has less health since the difference part is always calculated against your 'max health'. I think your reading of the ability is wrong. "Then if his maximum health is greater than the target's" It appears that bonus damage is based on the opponents maximum health not current health. So it should be used as an opener. So you're reading 'his' as 'his opponents' health? I read 'his maximum health' as meaning High Evolutionary's max health (including any bonus health from his Yellow boost) since target clearly refers to the target your damaging. In other words, you get the 2nd part of the damage if High Evolutionary's max health is > targets current health. KGB
I feel like we need to recruit an MTG editor to help parse descriptions now. These conditionals really do have impact on how they will be played in the heat of the match. It goes without say, Legion is great for events like puzzle gauntlet. But even if Legion stats were 5* meta, no one would use him at the end of their climbs/hops because its complicated to play effectively.
Based on the dev's events road- map, I would like to get a better understanding of the mix of pve/pvp/ independent(Boss Events, one-shots, puzzle gauntlet). Is it going to be 40/40/20 per season? Complex characters have a roll in events with non-standard rule sets. The devs need to outline a roadmap of the types of events we will see. In return, the players can better evaluate chars in that context.
There's nothing confusing about the phrasing. You know there are female characters in the game too right? Why would "His" be referring to the enemy character when the enemy is quite possibly a female?
@dianetics said: @KGB said: So you're reading 'his' as 'his opponents' health? I read 'his maximum health' as meaning High Evolutionary's max health (including any bonus health from his Yellow boost) since target clearly refers to the target your damaging. I am reading it as: EVO's maximum health and his opponents maximum health. Not his opponents current health. To use your terminology: EVO's max health is > targets max health.
@KGB said: So you're reading 'his' as 'his opponents' health? I read 'his maximum health' as meaning High Evolutionary's max health (including any bonus health from his Yellow boost) since target clearly refers to the target your damaging.
I am reading it as: EVO's maximum health and his opponents maximum health. Not his opponents current health.
To use your terminology: EVO's max health is > targets max health.
If it works the way you describe his Black power will be garbage because it will be doing less and less damage as the target gets weaker and weaker. Yes, the opponent max health will be going down 'some' via the Black power permanent damage component but other damage sources (match, powers from other characters, attack tiles etc) won't lower the opponent max health.
Yellow passive says: he receives up to 50% bonus max health and 10% bonus ability and base match damage based on the difference in levels, up to level 550. So if I play a level 450 Evo and I have another character at level 480, the difference would be 30 levels. The way I see it, he would gain at level 5, 75 levels, then he would be like a level 525. " Then his team gains half those bonuses, up to his level". If his level is the initial one, the character level 480 and the other one (if it's above Evo) wouldn't receive any bonus. If it's this new level, 525, the character level 480 would receive like 30 levels and the other one, based on their level. Obviously this second option is totally broken and I think the first case it's the right one so imo it's advisable to not have an Evo too high, but also not too low for to support a third character, also because of the active yellow and black. Then it's needed to see if it's working like my guess, if it's working without bugs, and finally if it doesn't get a prenerf.
@KGB said: @wymtime said: Black will be best as a first hit on an opponent and high health opponents overall. I disagree here. Black works best as a finishing move when the opponent is low on health. The reason is the bonus damage gets higher when the opponent has less health since the difference part is always calculated against your 'max health'. Example Both characters have 90K health. If you fire Black, you only do 12% damage = 10.8K permanent damage Enemy character has 30K health. If you fire black you do 3.6K permanent damage + (90-30)*.18 = 10.8 = 14.4 damage. Once the enemy reaches ~15K you will down them. KGB
@KGB said:
It is up to 18% of the damage. This means if they are both 90K health once the target hits 73.8K health or 18% below max health black will do max damage. That would be 8856 permanent damage and 13284 permanent damage. If you are waiting for 15k damage you are wasting damage. You would be better off using black earlier than later.
@wymtime said: @KGB said: @wymtime said: Black will be best as a first hit on an opponent and high health opponents overall. I disagree here. Black works best as a finishing move when the opponent is low on health. The reason is the bonus damage gets higher when the opponent has less health since the difference part is always calculated against your 'max health'. Example Both characters have 90K health. If you fire Black, you only do 12% damage = 10.8K permanent damage Enemy character has 30K health. If you fire black you do 3.6K permanent damage + (90-30)*.18 = 10.8 = 14.4 damage. Once the enemy reaches ~15K you will down them. KGB It is up to 18% of the damage. This means if they are both 90K health once the target hits 73.8K health or 18% below max health black will do max damage. That would be 8856 permanent damage and 13284 permanent damage. If you are waiting for 15k damage you are wasting damage. You would be better off using black earlier than later.
@wymtime said:
So your saying it works like this:
Both characters have 90K health. If you fire Black you do 12% permanent damage (10.8K) and then since his health > target health (current or max?) you do 12% more damage (difference between 90K and 79.2) or another 10.8K for a total of 21.6 damage.
Enemy Has 70K health (current or max?). If you fire Black you do 12% permanent damage (8.4) and then since his health > target health) do you 18% more (capped at 18% enemy health difference since enemy more than 18% from his max) or another 16.2K (90*.18) for a total of 24.6 damage.
That certainly makes his Black a lot better since that 18% part gets fixed at 16.2K damage pretty quickly once the target gets more than 18% lower than his max health.
@KGB said: @wymtime said: @KGB said: @wymtime said: Black will be best as a first hit on an opponent and high health opponents overall. I disagree here. Black works best as a finishing move when the opponent is low on health. The reason is the bonus damage gets higher when the opponent has less health since the difference part is always calculated against your 'max health'. Example Both characters have 90K health. If you fire Black, you only do 12% damage = 10.8K permanent damage Enemy character has 30K health. If you fire black you do 3.6K permanent damage + (90-30)*.18 = 10.8 = 14.4 damage. Once the enemy reaches ~15K you will down them. KGB It is up to 18% of the damage. This means if they are both 90K health once the target hits 73.8K health or 18% below max health black will do max damage. That would be 8856 permanent damage and 13284 permanent damage. If you are waiting for 15k damage you are wasting damage. You would be better off using black earlier than later. So your saying it works like this: Both characters have 90K health. If you fire Black you do 12% permanent damage (10.8K) and then since his health > target health (current or max?) you do 12% more damage (difference between 90K and 79.2) or another 10.8K for a total of 21.6 damage. Enemy Has 70K health (current or max?). If you fire Black you do 12% permanent damage (8.4) and then since his health > target health) do you 18% more (capped at 18% enemy health difference since enemy more than 18% from his max) or another 16.2K (90*.18) for a total of 24.6 damage. That certainly makes his Black a lot better since that 18% part gets fixed at 16.2K damage pretty quickly once the target gets more than 18% lower than his max health. KGB
I think his black might be better than i originally thought. I read it as if Evo max health is larger then target's max health he does 18% of his max health as damage. This would be flat damage in this case, since max health doesn't change (right?) This should be boosted by his yellow, since it boosts his max health if he isn't the highest level, giving him like 200k+ health (right?) - 18% of that is something like 40k damage, plus the permanent 9k for like 8 ap...
@dianetics said: The way it reads is he deals damage equal to the difference of EVO's and the targets health up to 18% of his total health. "he deals additional damage equal to the difference" So at 450 if he has 90k health and he casts it on shang chi who has 60k the difference is 30k. He will only do 16k. If he casts is on colossus who has 80k he will only do 10k not the 16k.
Good catch about the difference. But it should still be amplified by his yellow. At 450 he would have 228k health (if I understand his yellow correctly and someone is 450+ levels, 96k +140%). So if target has 60k, the diff is 168k and 18% of that would be a 30k. He would do an additional 12% permanent damage of 7k for a total of 37k damage for 8ap. If target has 80k, the diff would be 148k and 18% of that would be 26k. He would do an additional 12% permanet damage of 9k, bringing the total to 35k damage for 8ap.
That seems pretty solid damage, plus the huge heath from yellow, makes it seem like he would be tough to beat on defense. Might be too slow to be Meta, but might be solid. If any can run him in a simulator and see how he works in action, we might be able to really see how good he is.