***** Kang (The Conqueror) *****

Vhailorx

@DAZ0273 said:

@Tony_Foot said:

@DAZ0273 said:
Hmm. Not sure having Kang's away insta-win is something they will want to leave intact for mini-bosses like Iron Man in Cosmic Chaos. Sort'a defeats the point - he isn't very tough already but a Boss should at least be a Boss.

Is there a boss event even on the last Round that takes you more than 3 turns anyway? They need to give these bosses 300K health for anyone with a diverse set of champions at 5* level. But I think most people would prefer to be given the 2 covers for no work and have the time off. Boss events were really a 4* challenge developing roster, the level has been updated since then.

I obviously need to learn to type better coz I could swear I gave the specific example I was talking about and two posters now have referenced Boss Events. Maybe boss Events will be insta-win too although that would be a shame for likes of Apocalypse.

You say "Boss" (with caps, too!) And I think "Boss Event."

DAZ0273

@Vhailorx said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@Vhailorx said:

@DAZ0273 said:
Hmm. Not sure having Kang's away insta-win is something they will want to leave intact for mini-bosses like Iron Man in Cosmic Chaos. Sort'a defeats the point - he isn't very tough already but a Boss should at least be a Boss.

I disagree. Building clever teams that can punch above their weight is a fun way for newer rosters to contribute for their alliance and learn the more "advanced" elements of MPQ. Winfinite or niche teams have been a big part of boss events since their Introduction (e.g. the old Charlie's angels team, or using 3* Punisher red for high health enemies, etc). There is no problem with adding "get 9-27 blue ap asap to that list.

Sure, solo bosses will be easy if 9 ap is all you need. But they are already the easiest part of boss events for most players (it's the side nodes on sat./sun. that are the grind for weaker rosters), and many bosses have goon summoning powers too.

But I am talking about regular PvE. Although of course I guess we will find out on Boss Events next week.

That is up to the Devs I guess. We have come all the way from "You're meant to lose" to ""You'll always win" which is fine of course if you are going through the pretence of a player expending any effort at all. Might as well stick a level 65 goon in the final node of Cosmic Chaos and just let a Jiggs + GotG team one shot it from move one. That is just me though I guess.

I just can't care much about how easy 4/36 daily pve clears are. I guess I might be more on your side if kang's passive can overcome puzzle-bosses like kaecilius or Apocalypse that have non-standard win conditions. If the rules of the game are "Do X to win" then characters that can "do Y and win anyway" seem to undermine the spirit of the game mode.

I don't really have a side. I am genuinely trying to understand how the Devs profit from any of this. At the end of the day if this is their plan then the game gets progressively more broken/easy with future releases until we get to a point where either every new character is utterly pointless or utterly broken. It's their game so presumably they know what they are doing.

Bowgentle

I think they're just trying to hammer home Bucket's point that Chasm needs a nerf, if this is what it takes to counter him.

Scofie

Is it any more broken than boosted 5s when levels haven't scaled, or winfinite teams? With Kitty boosted, the boss node is pretty easy and took maybe 20 seconds less with HE/3Kang/IM40 plus 2 supports.

I don't disagree with anything you say, but I guess there are so many ways to win now that its just come down to speed. Perhaps PvE should get rid of the speed element and distribute all the rewards in progression instead... 😈

Perhaps the biggest threat to the game now is burnout, and making it easier/quicker does limit that? I think that some people consider it like a job that they have to play to get the paycheck at the end of the season. I'm not even sure they're having fun anymore.

Vhailorx

@DAZ0273 said:

@Vhailorx said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@Vhailorx said:

@DAZ0273 said:
Hmm. Not sure having Kang's away insta-win is something they will want to leave intact for mini-bosses like Iron Man in Cosmic Chaos. Sort'a defeats the point - he isn't very tough already but a Boss should at least be a Boss.

I disagree. Building clever teams that can punch above their weight is a fun way for newer rosters to contribute for their alliance and learn the more "advanced" elements of MPQ. Winfinite or niche teams have been a big part of boss events since their Introduction (e.g. the old Charlie's angels team, or using 3* Punisher red for high health enemies, etc). There is no problem with adding "get 9-27 blue ap asap to that list.

Sure, solo bosses will be easy if 9 ap is all you need. But they are already the easiest part of boss events for most players (it's the side nodes on sat./sun. that are the grind for weaker rosters), and many bosses have goon summoning powers too.

But I am talking about regular PvE. Although of course I guess we will find out on Boss Events next week.

That is up to the Devs I guess. We have come all the way from "You're meant to lose" to ""You'll always win" which is fine of course if you are going through the pretence of a player expending any effort at all. Might as well stick a level 65 goon in the final node of Cosmic Chaos and just let a Jiggs + GotG team one shot it from move one. That is just me though I guess.

I just can't care much about how easy 4/36 daily pve clears are. I guess I might be more on your side if kang's passive can overcome puzzle-bosses like kaecilius or Apocalypse that have non-standard win conditions. If the rules of the game are "Do X to win" then characters that can "do Y and win anyway" seem to undermine the spirit of the game mode.

I don't really have a side. I am genuinely trying to understand how the Devs profit from any of this. At the end of the day if this is their plan then the game gets progressively more broken/easy with future releases until we get to a point where either every new character is utterly pointless or utterly broken. It's their game so presumably they know what they are doing.

Hasn't the game been there for years already for 5* players? When was the last time there was a real question about a 5* roster's ability to complete a pve event? I have a pretty weak 5* roster and there are only a handful of nodes that can even affect my tram selection, let alone the one or two nodes that might wipe me if I get terrible board luck.

I have certainly been commenting since at least polaris that additional growth in the 4* was wasted effort because each new character was either polaris-level meta-warping, or utterly lost in a sea of 100+ 4*s.

DAZ0273

@Vhailorx said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@Vhailorx said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@Vhailorx said:

@DAZ0273 said:
Hmm. Not sure having Kang's away insta-win is something they will want to leave intact for mini-bosses like Iron Man in Cosmic Chaos. Sort'a defeats the point - he isn't very tough already but a Boss should at least be a Boss.

I disagree. Building clever teams that can punch above their weight is a fun way for newer rosters to contribute for their alliance and learn the more "advanced" elements of MPQ. Winfinite or niche teams have been a big part of boss events since their Introduction (e.g. the old Charlie's angels team, or using 3* Punisher red for high health enemies, etc). There is no problem with adding "get 9-27 blue ap asap to that list.

Sure, solo bosses will be easy if 9 ap is all you need. But they are already the easiest part of boss events for most players (it's the side nodes on sat./sun. that are the grind for weaker rosters), and many bosses have goon summoning powers too.

But I am talking about regular PvE. Although of course I guess we will find out on Boss Events next week.

That is up to the Devs I guess. We have come all the way from "You're meant to lose" to ""You'll always win" which is fine of course if you are going through the pretence of a player expending any effort at all. Might as well stick a level 65 goon in the final node of Cosmic Chaos and just let a Jiggs + GotG team one shot it from move one. That is just me though I guess.

I just can't care much about how easy 4/36 daily pve clears are. I guess I might be more on your side if kang's passive can overcome puzzle-bosses like kaecilius or Apocalypse that have non-standard win conditions. If the rules of the game are "Do X to win" then characters that can "do Y and win anyway" seem to undermine the spirit of the game mode.

I don't really have a side. I am genuinely trying to understand how the Devs profit from any of this. At the end of the day if this is their plan then the game gets progressively more broken/easy with future releases until we get to a point where either every new character is utterly pointless or utterly broken. It's their game so presumably they know what they are doing.

Hasn't the game been there for years already for 5* players? When was the last time there was a real question about a 5* roster's ability to complete a pve event? I have a pretty weak 5* roster and there are only a handful of nodes that can even affect my tram selection, let alone the one or two nodes that might wipe me if I get terrible board luck.

I have certainly been commenting since at least polaris that additional growth in the 4* was wasted effort because each new character was either polaris-level meta-warping, or utterly lost in a sea of 100+ 4*s.

Which is basically my point. 5* rosters did not need this leg up. I can't believe this was the only way to counter Chasm so I have to wonder what the plan is. Why give the 3* Kang the insta-win condition? It took me 4 days to champ him, no doubt others did it instantly and he works just fine. Do the Devs want us to spend less time playing PvE? If so is the plan that we then spend more time playing other parts of the game? I mean the plan can't be for us all to play MPQ even less than we do...can it? Or is there no plan at all? Power creep is always going to be a thing but normally difficulty is adjusted to cope. Maybe there is a big revamp coming? I dunno. Maybe I just find this all confusing when I shouldn't be overthinking it and just jump on the Kang train and not give it another thought.

entrailbucket

@Bowgentle said:
I think they're just trying to hammer home Bucket's point that Chasm needs a nerf, if this is what it takes to counter him.

The problem now is that Kang exists, so they're just digging the hole even deeper. What is the Kang counter going to have to do? A passive that says "the enemy cannot win the game if this character is on your team?"

HoundofShadow

An ability that removes enemy cd passively whenever enemy fires a power will help. His Away is tied to cd. Zero Away cdv= Zero Victory.

DrClever

@HoundofShadow said:
An ability that removes enemy cd passively whenever enemy fires a power will help. His Away is tied to cd. Zero Away cdv= Zero Victory.

The opponent is sent away even if there's nowhere to put a countdown - get just return immediately. If they are the last one standing you still get the win.

Timemachinego

@HoundofShadow said:
An ability that removes enemy cd passively whenever enemy fires a power will help. His Away is tied to cd. Zero Away cdv= Zero Victory.

Yes, let's put yet another reason in this game to run nothing but characters with strong passives or instant-damage abilities. CD based powers are already selected against in general.

entrailbucket

@HoundofShadow said:
An ability that removes enemy cd passively whenever enemy fires a power will help. His Away is tied to cd. Zero Away cdv= Zero Victory.

I know PvE is already a joke but this would pretty much finish it off.

HoundofShadow

@DrClever I didn't know about the countdown "bug" to send them away. I would expect an error message to pop up.

Stun is the universal antidote to most poisons in the game. So, one can always stun.

ArchusMonk

@DAZ0273 said:

@Bowgentle said:
If people want to use a slow team on a non-repeatable node on a single enemy, let them.

I'm not talking about from player perspective but Devs. If I was a programmer and my mini Boss is defeated without one move even needed then I would be embarrassed myself. Perhaps they don't care, I don't know but I would.

I understand your bigger picture point, but I don’t understand why you’re worried about the specific node in question. Even when I was punching up, every “boss node” was a joke. I would sometimes struggle with the CN or 5e, but never these mini-bosses. I never considered them to be a challenge - just free rewards for completing 1 complete circuit of the map. Your argument would hold more weight if you were concerned about how Kang is trivializing CN’s. I save several minutes of time using a Kang team on CN’s. I don’t even use Kang on the mini-boss because it doesn’t save me any time over my standard pick 3 PVE team.

entrailbucket

I have a feeling Kang will work on Kaecilius the first time he shows up. Gonna guess he'll work on puzzle gauntlet too.

Bad

Is Kang a threat on pvp? If he manages to send away one of your characters, yes he is a threat for making you lose some turns. But no more than the chahulk team.
AI never will save 18 blues in order to win the player.
And boss events can be defeated even by 3* characters.
Before collecting 9 blues a boss event can be slaughtered by 5s.
CNs are not a "challenge" anymore, even more if it's a challenge of 3 characters buffed, or one 5* and 2 goons.
The whole PvE content needs a major overhaul on difficulty levels and on more characters diversity and on bigger numbers of pves, imo.

DAZ0273

@ArchusMonk said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@Bowgentle said:
If people want to use a slow team on a non-repeatable node on a single enemy, let them.

I'm not talking about from player perspective but Devs. If I was a programmer and my mini Boss is defeated without one move even needed then I would be embarrassed myself. Perhaps they don't care, I don't know but I would.

I understand your bigger picture point, but I don’t understand why you’re worried about the specific node in question. Even when I was punching up, every “boss node” was a joke. I would sometimes struggle with the CN or 5e, but never these mini-bosses. I never considered them to be a challenge - just free rewards for completing 1 complete circuit of the map. Your argument would hold more weight if you were concerned about how Kang is trivializing CN’s. I save several minutes of time using a Kang team on CN’s. I don’t even use Kang on the mini-boss because it doesn’t save me any time over my standard pick 3 PVE team.

That was just an example from yesterday's play tha jumped out at me - of course he makes CN pointless also. He trivialises everything. I also had my first 3* Kang appear in a red on PvP. So it isn't even just the 5 version.

HoundofShadow

When the dev increases the difficulty levels, players are going to cry.

Bowgentle

@HoundofShadow said:
When the dev increases the difficulty levels, players are going to cry.

Welcome back, dear Strawman.
We've missed you.

DAZ0273

Actually it seems to me that the obvious counter to Kang's away power (and airbourne/stun) is one of the choices in the new character fan favourite poll thingy. Multiple Man - send him away and he makes a duplicate that replaces his displaced self until the original returns. Actually I think the poll closed yesterday so we might find out the winner soon.

Scofie

@DAZ0273 said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@Bowgentle said:
If people want to use a slow team on a non-repeatable node on a single enemy, let them.

I'm not talking about from player perspective but Devs. If I was a programmer and my mini Boss is defeated without one move even needed then I would be embarrassed myself. Perhaps they don't care, I don't know but I would.

I understand your bigger picture point, but I don’t understand why you’re worried about the specific node in question. Even when I was punching up, every “boss node” was a joke. I would sometimes struggle with the CN or 5e, but never these mini-bosses. I never considered them to be a challenge - just free rewards for completing 1 complete circuit of the map. Your argument would hold more weight if you were concerned about how Kang is trivializing CN’s. I save several minutes of time using a Kang team on CN’s. I don’t even use Kang on the mini-boss because it doesn’t save me any time over my standard pick 3 PVE team.

That was just an example from yesterday's play tha jumped out at me - of course he makes CN pointless also. He trivialises everything. I also had my first 3* Kang appear in a red on PvP. So it isn't even just the 5 version.

I use the 3* version in PvE because I've only got 2 blue covers for the 5* so far. CN competed 3 times in about 2 mins, including one retreat. HE died on the last run but had enough to win with just IM40 and 3Kang when the tiles expired. And I normally hate that CN.