***** Hit Monkey (E.D.I. Suit) *****

Sekilicious

@Blackstone said:

@IrisRyu said:
Is there some dynamic to I’m BACK Baby that I’m missing? I fired Hit-Monkey’s black in a few different matches and the first time it created a match-5 for the enemy and subsequent firings created match-4’s before I stopped using it. That seems like high liability for a little bit of board shake. Is there something else to it or is that ability just not very good (to me)?

Honestly, that sounds about right. Like how MEHulk swaps tiles in ways that almost always makes the board worse for you. (maybe that's just my experience)

Random swaps rarely work out for the player.

I have used both HM and MEHulk with mThor. The board shake gets crazy. It is better to ignore the Board state until after they finish their shenanigans and embrace chaos.

DAZ0273

I don't think I have had a single convert to red happen in either PvP I played him in. I guess purple must not be a very common strongest power or something or perhaps it was just this weeks boost list. Not ideal when you were trying to fire She Hulk's red power.

KGB

@Bad said:
Better said, players always remember the negative swaps and usually forget the positive swaps making matches or helping them.
SC is a character who benefits on board movement no matter if is good or bad, and of course if the monkey converts a tile on red or purple.

Very true. It's well known Human Nature that's the reason for this. It let our ancestors survive in the wild. Negative outcomes there usually meant being eaten by animals etc so we became conditioned to remember them more than positive outcomes.

Here's my own negative swap story. In my very first fight of his PvP after I made my initial move, the AI popped a Red tile that made a match 4 that cascaded into a match 5 critical plus some other matches that gave the AI enough Red to fire Monkeys power and enough damage had been done from the match damage to my BRB that he was able to 1 shot kill me on turn 1 forcing me to retreat! That left an indelible negative swap scar in my brain.

KGB

Eirikr56

@DAZ0273 said:
I don't think I have had a single convert to red happen in either PvP I played him in. I guess purple must not be a very common strongest power or something or perhaps it was just this weeks boost list. Not ideal when you were trying to fire She Hulk's red power.

If the other team's strongest power is red, then it will only convert red to purple since it can't convert red to red. Red is a very common strongest color in the meta/boost this week.

Bad

The show is great. I'm already at episode 4. Funny, violent and gore.
Disney didn't want to publicy this content and that's really unfair (like a lot of things they do)

Blackstone

@Bad said:
Better said, players always remember the negative swaps and usually forget the positive swaps making matches or helping them.
SC is a character who benefits on board movement no matter if is good or bad, and of course if the monkey converts a tile on red or purple.

I understand the existence of the phenomena you are referencing. Nothing I said relies on memory however.

Just because people naturally recognize and remember the negative more easily, doesn't mean random swaps are providing a positive effect.

At some point I monitored MEHulks randoms in 100 matches and he overwhelmingly made the board worse. I'm not saying this cost the game or was horrible in any way, just an objective net negative. Do I recall the times he stole a match 5 from me? Sure. Has he ever granted me a match 5? Not that I recall. But that's why bothered checking.

Others may have different results, but you can't realty expect a random effect to offer consistently positive results. Break even over time, or net negative, are much more realistic expectations.

Those with different opinions on this are welcome to have those opinions. My opinion on it comes from testing patterns and accepting the results.

Vhailorx

@Blackstone said:

@Bad said:
Better said, players always remember the negative swaps and usually forget the positive swaps making matches or helping them.
SC is a character who benefits on board movement no matter if is good or bad, and of course if the monkey converts a tile on red or purple.

I understand the existence of the phenomena you are referencing. Nothing I said relies on memory however.

Just because people naturally recognize and remember the negative more easily, doesn't mean random swaps are providing a positive effect.

At some point I monitored MEHulks randoms in 100 matches and he overwhelmingly made the board worse. I'm not saying this cost the game or was horrible in any way, just an objective net negative. Do I recall the times he stole a match 5 from me? Sure. Has he ever granted me a match 5? Not that I recall. But that's why bothered checking.

Others may have different results, but you can't realty expect a random effect to offer consistently positive results. Break even over time, or net negative, are much more realistic expectations.

Those with different opinions on this are welcome to have those opinions. My opinion on it comes from testing patterns and accepting the results.

100 matches? Care to add a little more detail? Actually, even if you did exact per-turn documentation aAMD we could agree on what "worse" means, I am not at all sure 100 matches is nearly enough to be a statistically significant sample?

But more to the point, let's take your thery as true for the sake of argument. how do you think BCS (or demi if it's a legacy system) implemented a hidden system that would make meHulk's tile swap always work in favor if the ai? They would need to make guesses about things like "what colors are you chasing?" "What secondary or tertiary matches are made impossible by this swap?" "What board layout benefits the ai team more than the player team?"

So someone coded a system that could make accurate guesses about all of those factors each turn and then kept it hidden from players (to the point of lying in power descriptions)? (And all of this in a game where the baseline ai is as dumb as a sack of rocks and can't target any individual color/power, cast more than one ability per color per turn, or cast colors out order!)

When that is your position I don't feel like I need to work too hard to disprove your hypothesis.

DAZ0273

@Eirikr56 said:

@DAZ0273 said:
I don't think I have had a single convert to red happen in either PvP I played him in. I guess purple must not be a very common strongest power or something or perhaps it was just this weeks boost list. Not ideal when you were trying to fire She Hulk's red power.

If the other team's strongest power is red, then it will only convert red to purple since it can't convert red to red. Red is a very common strongest color in the meta/boost this week.

Yeah that is what I was saying. With red being such a predominantly strong colour, it means Monkey is skewing towards providing purple. In the example given what with two Monkey PVP's and a boosted champed She Hulk, that didn't much help. Eh, what ya gonna do?

HoundofShadow

Off the top of my head, these are the colours of mera:

Chasm - Black
IHulk - Green
Wanda - Purple
Colossus - Yellow
mThor - Red
Okoye - Black

DAZ0273

Yes but it was a boosted week with She Hulk, Yelena, Big Wheel and Havok. Only Yelena has purple as a strong colour and the other teams I saw all have Mighty Thor or Shang Chi. So all I got was purple. I used it for Yelena's traps so wasn't end of the world but she isn't champed so red for Shulkie would have been better.

Blackstone

@Vhailorx said:

@Blackstone said:

@Bad said:
Better said, players always remember the negative swaps and usually forget the positive swaps making matches or helping them.
SC is a character who benefits on board movement no matter if is good or bad, and of course if the monkey converts a tile on red or purple.

I understand the existence of the phenomena you are referencing. Nothing I said relies on memory however.

Just because people naturally recognize and remember the negative more easily, doesn't mean random swaps are providing a positive effect.

At some point I monitored MEHulks randoms in 100 matches and he overwhelmingly made the board worse. I'm not saying this cost the game or was horrible in any way, just an objective net negative. Do I recall the times he stole a match 5 from me? Sure. Has he ever granted me a match 5? Not that I recall. But that's why bothered checking.

Others may have different results, but you can't realty expect a random effect to offer consistently positive results. Break even over time, or net negative, are much more realistic expectations.

Those with different opinions on this are welcome to have those opinions. My opinion on it comes from testing patterns and accepting the results.

100 matches? Care to add a little more detail? Actually, even if you did exact per-turn documentation aAMD we could agree on what "worse" means, I am not at all sure 100 matches is nearly enough to be a statistically significant sample?

But more to the point, let's take your thery as true for the sake of argument. how do you think BCS (or demi if it's a legacy system) implemented a hidden system that would make meHulk's tile swap always work in favor if the ai? They would need to make guesses about things like "what colors are you chasing?" "What secondary or tertiary matches are made impossible by this swap?" "What board layout benefits the ai team more than the player team?"

So someone coded a system that could make accurate guesses about all of those factors each turn and then kept it hidden from players (to the point of lying in power descriptions)? (And all of this in a game where the baseline ai is as dumb as a sack of rocks and can't target any individual color/power, cast more than one ability per color per turn, or cast colors out order!)

When that is your position I don't feel like I need to work too hard to disprove your hypothesis.

Wow, you're taking this very seriously.

I'm not claiming any of the things you're saying.

I don't think anyone programmed anything to favor AI. That's just silly.

The things you described aren't my position, they're your crazy ideas and assumptions.

I'll try to be clear.

I did some admittedly limited testing after noticing a trend.

No, 100 matches isn't the end all be all, but it was plenty to recognize that the swaps weren't reliable.

Worse meant: I had 4 or 5 matches, swap occurred, I no longer had those 4 or 5 matches.
I had matches ready in MEHulks strongest colors, swap occurred, the strongest match was gone. That's pretty simple and straight forward.

In no way am I claiming this means any of the **** you've tried to put on me. Simply stating there's no reason to think random swaps are going to be helpful. They won't work out for you simply because they are random. I don't even know how you jumped to the things you claimed.

Anyway, I hope that makes more sense and you can calm down a bit.

You're welcome to have the last word as I'm done with this conversation. There really is no need to repeat myself or continue to explain things to anyone accusing me of crazy conspiracies.

Have a great day.

HoundofShadow

I thought it was referring to his colour conversion in general. Only Yelena benefit from the conversion. It's a little tricky to put more trap tiles on the board due to lack of red tiles. A She-Hulk revive did the job to shake some red down. 15k damage per trap tile is pretty good. Maybe next time?

AlexR

@Blackstone said:
I understand the existence of the phenomena you are referencing. Nothing I said relies on memory however.

Just because people naturally recognize and remember the negative more easily, doesn't mean random swaps are providing a positive effect.

At some point I monitored MEHulks randoms in 100 matches and he overwhelmingly made the board worse. I'm not saying this cost the game or was horrible in any way, just an objective net negative. Do I recall the times he stole a match 5 from me? Sure. Has he ever granted me a match 5? Not that I recall. But that's why bothered checking.

Others may have different results, but you can't realty expect a random effect to offer consistently positive results. Break even over time, or net negative, are much more realistic expectations.

Those with different opinions on this are welcome to have those opinions. My opinion on it comes from testing patterns and accepting the results.

The main strength of MEHulk comes from pairing him with America-- with her spawning crit tiles, passive random swaps become very useful. Certain characters (like America with her crit tiles, Shang-Chi draining the board of purple/red and needing the board to change up) benefit from board movement, regardless whether the random board movement itself is that great.
By itself though, I agree, random swaps don't do that much and often aren't particuarly helpful. You really got to have a team mate that actively benefits from such things.

IrisRyu

I’m not sure how this turned into a discussion about negativity bias on tile swaps. I get the Hit-Monkey comparison to MEHulk, but the primary difference in my view is that Hit-Monkey’s tile swapping happens on the enemy’s turn and you are damaged by any succeeding matches following the swap. MEHulk’s swaps happen at the start of your turn and doesn’t carry the same risk of harm.

I just think it’s an interesting power choice for a counter to Chasm, whose primarily match damage based. It’s like the devs threw in an intentional Achilles’ heel given all of HM’s anti-revive shenanigans.

killahKlown

@IrisRyu said:
I’m not sure how this turned into a discussion about negativity bias on tile swaps. I get the Hit-Monkey comparison to MEHulk, but the primary difference in my view is that Hit-Monkey’s tile swapping happens on the enemy’s turn and you are damaged by any succeeding matches following the swap. MEHulk’s swaps happen at the start of your turn and doesn’t carry the same risk of harm.

I just think it’s an interesting power choice for a counter to Chasm, whose primarily match damage based. It’s like the devs threw in an intentional Achilles’ heel given all of HM’s anti-revive shenanigans.

It happens on enemy's turn? Are you sure about that? Description of that power says differently. And I seem to recall it happening at the beginning if my own turn.

Maybe it only seemed that way to you because enemy had a monkey too?

IrisRyu

I’ve certainly been known to not understand how powers work in the past, but I think my understanding (and experience) tracks with the power description.

I'm BACK Baby! - PASSIVE
(PASSIVE) Bryce distracts the target, causing them to deal 15% less damage. At the beginning of the enemy's turn, Bryce deals 487 damage to the target, destroys 2 AP in their strongest color, and swaps the positions of 3 random pairs of tiles on the board. If there is no longer a Bryce tile on the board, this ability becomes OW OW That STINGS. (Max level 1959 damage)

killahKlown

I see. Yeah you're right
I was thinking about the color swap ability.

Blackstone

@IrisRyu said:
I’m not sure how this turned into a discussion about negativity bias on tile swaps. I get the Hit-Monkey comparison to MEHulk, but the primary difference in my view is that Hit-Monkey’s tile swapping happens on the enemy’s turn and you are damaged by any succeeding matches following the swap. MEHulk’s swaps happen at the start of your turn and doesn’t carry the same risk of harm.

I just think it’s an interesting power choice for a counter to Chasm, whose primarily match damage based. It’s like the devs threw in an intentional Achilles’ heel given all of HM’s anti-revive shenanigans.

My fault. I intended something to be a one off comparison and it became something else. Apologies.

True, the timing of HMs swaps feels like a draw back all by itself.

LavaManLee

Yeah, after reading that description, there is no way the random swapping is bad for the opponent. Only bad cascades can happen to you (the player).

Daredevil217

I have to remember to ask the developers their intention with a power that at most will be neutral and at worst will benefit the enemy. I’m sure it’s intentional, but I’m curious what the intention is. I don’t know I’d ever fire it unfortunately.