The ChaHulk meta

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  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,828 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2022

    Any character complaint thread is perceived as an attack by players who rely on an overpowered character. They know x guy is too good, they see people complain about him, and they think "oh no, if the developers see this, they'll find out x is too good and take my overpowered toy away!" It's been repeated on this forum over and over and over again for years, with whoever the latest overpowered guy is.

    Complaint threads like this never have any effect though. They're not taking your overpowered guy away -- the last time they did that was what, 5 years ago? Let people vent and complain and work out ways to counter him. They're not attacking you and even if they do want your guy taken away, the devs have proven that they won't ever do that, no matter what the consequences are.

  • AlexR
    AlexR Posts: 453 Mover and Shaker

    I am waiting for the reports of how Riri teams or Hit-Monkey do in pick-2 vs Chasm/iHulk. Because I'm at the cusp of entering 5* territory and I refuse to move up unless I have a counter to deal with this. Passive AP drain + multi-revival characters sound so, so tedious to fight.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,828 Chairperson of the Boards

    If you're at the point of 550ing characters, there are at least 4 excellent counters to Chasm in pick-2 -- they just change every week! 675 Court Death hits for about 80,000 this week. I can beat 550 Chasm/Hulk in a few moves -- it's a joke. Anything at or below 550 looks like a cupcake when you're running 600s or 675s.

    Of course, many players didn't bother leveling up the old guys, instead choosing to max level one or two of the best 5*. This used to be the best way to do things, but isn't anymore. The optimal roster, post-5* boosts, is a diverse, relatively-evenly-leveled 5* tier that can run 2 different high level boosted guys every week. The hoarders do still get to win shield sim, I guess.

  • IrisRyu
    IrisRyu Posts: 174 Tile Toppler

    I think I was still in 3-star land when Thanos was released! He’s well covered for a classic, but mine can’t hang on non-boost weeks. I’ll give him a shot boosted and will learn to love him those weeks!

  • killahKlown
    killahKlown Posts: 583 Critical Contributor
    edited December 2022

    @Sekilicious said:
    I can close it if that is what people want. The thread has went from “what is a good counter” to alternating between “Chasm is the worst” and “Chasm is easily countered”. We are rehashing all of the same arguments over and over ad nauseam. That being said, this thread still has pretty high engagement. As such, if this thread makes people’s experience on the site worse I can help with that. If you want it to remain to give people a spot to tinykitty about the meta (like the worst moment of the day thread) I will just leave it be. Just let me know.

    I wouldn't miss it if it were gone. Tired of seeing it actually. It's mostly the same few people saying the same things over and over. But now they begin posts with "As I said before" or "like I said from the beginning"

  • Codex
    Codex Posts: 304 Mover and Shaker

    Maybe the solution is increasing boosted 5* to six or eight different characters every week in regular PvP. Not sure what to do about sim other than not play.

    This may also give ppl that hoard a pause and consider being more diverse in their roster rather than fixating on meta characters.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2022

    I think this thread can be closed. There's nothing new to add. The next thread about Chasm should be something like "Say bye bye to Chasm with this 5* release", which could happen as early as the January 5* release. Then, around August 2023, we'll have another new nerf thread talking about healthpack usage due to the new meta team.

  • GrimSkald
    GrimSkald Posts: 2,640 Chairperson of the Boards

    I see no point in closing the thread, it does show off how strong the opinions are. Look, I know a lot of you think "Oh, it's another nerf thread." I can speak for myself - I rarely call for a nerf, and I do think that Chasm is over-powered, and, worse, over-powered in a way that makes the game a chore to play.
    There are reasonable counters for him, and in a week where they're boosted you're going to see more diversity (i.e. this week where both SW and Thanos are okay at countering Chasm,) but on weeks were there isn't it's going to really suck to play anything else. Sure, you can beat the team, but after you get high enough you won't be able to net points because you're a bright shiny target.
    I do think that Chasm changed the meta substantially, and I do think that's bad for the game. I'll adopt a "wait and see" attitude myself because I have a reasonably high Chasm and a very robust roster -- I can afford to tinker around with the counters. But someone not in such a great position would definitely be getting very frustrated.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    Why bothering to play SIM? Because it's fun.
    Because for once the player is free to use any team. Personally I like to play with my best team.
    And indeed it reveals the most annoying meta team of the moment. For many years was kitty grocket, bishop BRB, cap worthy and HE, a lot of years brolaris, hulkoye, colSW, etc... Still I think there wasn't any year having exclusively one team on SIM tops, like now.
    We as players are the culprit for playing them? No, not at all. We will chase and play the best tool at the moment.
    However when the meta becomes exclusive and boring(and this is a general perception, not just me), developers must question why those teams are overplayed and must design good tools for to have a second option.
    Do they want to soft counter it a bit with riri and the monkey? Nice, be it. But then release more soft counters in order to having more options.
    And one last thing, advanced rosters and MMRs are experiencing this situation because they have more resources and they aim for top characters.
    Give more time to 4* players to chase chasm without an ultimate counter (a character that chasm always will skip) and you will have the same situation we are experiencing.
    Also the drop in pvp points is something serious and it never happened since I've been playing, perhaps for that reason there are already 2 5* characters in a row released soft countering the chahulk team.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,828 Chairperson of the Boards

    The metagame in sim has been exclusive and boring for years. It really is a trash event. I quit playing it when 100% of my fights were Bishop teams. Maybe you're misremembering, or you've moved up a matchmaking tier since then?

    Soft counters like Hit Monkey don't reduce usage. Look at the 4* tier -- like 12 4* in a row were soft counters to Polaris, and she's still the most used 4*. Gamora 5* was meant to counter the damage reduction meta and basically saw zero usage. A passive ability needs a passive counter. Active counters to passive abilities never work.

    Hard counters do reduce usage, but unless they're designed very carefully they cause other problems. A hard counter for an overpowered character is going to be overpowered themselves, unless they're extremely narrow. Like Scarlet Witch was designed to counter hulk's aoe, but ended up countering cascades and attack tiles too.

    A narrow hard counter for Chasm could be a guy who has a passive that turns off only Chasm's or only Hulk's resurrection power. He'd have to be usable otherwise though -- a guy with that passive but nothing else worthwhile wouldn't be very good. They could also just give us a guy who passively removes all void tiles every turn.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2022

    Alternatively change Void tiles from being an unowned tile to being something that can be removed by any of the myriad powers that remove special tiles.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,828 Chairperson of the Boards

    @ThaRoadWarrior said:
    Alternatively change Void tiles from being an unowned tile to being something that can be removed by any of the myriad powers that remove special tiles.

    Yeah, this has to be a bug/oversight, right?

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards

    No, I kind of think Chasm was an intentional Mary Sue. Plus Broken Circle seems really enamored with character specific tiles for some reason.

  • killercool
    killercool Posts: 280 Mover and Shaker

    @ThaRoadWarrior said:
    No, I kind of think Chasm was an intentional Mary Sue. Plus Broken Circle seems really enamored with character specific tiles for some reason.

    Wouldn’t Chasm be a Marty Stu?

  • Zalasta
    Zalasta Posts: 285 Mover and Shaker

    Maybe they should rework Hela (goddess of death) and give her a passive that negates the resurrection meta.

  • GrimSkald
    GrimSkald Posts: 2,640 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @ThaRoadWarrior said:
    Alternatively change Void tiles from being an unowned tile to being something that can be removed by any of the myriad powers that remove special tiles.

    Yeah, this has to be a bug/oversight, right?

    Unfortunately, no. There is a category of tiles that are considered "unowned" and therefore don't belong to either team The big example are Web tiles, but they also include things like charged tiles, locked tiles (I think,) and some really odd ones like the Silver Surfer's black hole (it continues to be there even if the Silver Surfer is downed, it's really weird.)

    Most of the "special tile" targeting things treat these unowned tiles like basic tiles - MThor for example will still destroy them (I think, not 100% sure of Void tiles but I have seen her blow up web tiles,) but not prefer them, hitting them no more than any other tile.

    But I agree, having Chasm "own" the void tiles will help - a lot of the "special tile destruction" powers are very specific (they say "Strike, Protect, or attack tile") but some aren't.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2022

    The categorisation of tile types can be found in the game faq. It has been there since I played MPQ in 2017. What's weirder is that players don't seem to be aware of its (in-game faq) existence.

  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2022

    It is less than they are not aware of what is and isn’t a special tile or the in game faq, it’s why what is considered special hasn’t been updated to include the new character specific tiles.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2022

    Special tile members are fixed because there hasn't been any new tile of its class created. If it's not special tile, then it falls into other category.

    Any power that target random tiles will be able to target playable characters' character tiles, subjected to RNG. The tricky part is trying to figure out non-playable characters' character tiles, which are usually found in boss events. For example Dr Ock's tentacle tiles or Ultron's bombs.

    If we are talking about Abyss tiles, I believe it was revealed to be character tiles in his character thread.

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