The ChaHulk meta

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  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,999 Chairperson of the Boards

    The metagame in sim has been exclusive and boring for years. It really is a trash event. I quit playing it when 100% of my fights were Bishop teams. Maybe you're misremembering, or you've moved up a matchmaking tier since then?

    Soft counters like Hit Monkey don't reduce usage. Look at the 4* tier -- like 12 4* in a row were soft counters to Polaris, and she's still the most used 4*. Gamora 5* was meant to counter the damage reduction meta and basically saw zero usage. A passive ability needs a passive counter. Active counters to passive abilities never work.

    Hard counters do reduce usage, but unless they're designed very carefully they cause other problems. A hard counter for an overpowered character is going to be overpowered themselves, unless they're extremely narrow. Like Scarlet Witch was designed to counter hulk's aoe, but ended up countering cascades and attack tiles too.

    A narrow hard counter for Chasm could be a guy who has a passive that turns off only Chasm's or only Hulk's resurrection power. He'd have to be usable otherwise though -- a guy with that passive but nothing else worthwhile wouldn't be very good. They could also just give us a guy who passively removes all void tiles every turn.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,471 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2022

    Alternatively change Void tiles from being an unowned tile to being something that can be removed by any of the myriad powers that remove special tiles.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,999 Chairperson of the Boards

    @ThaRoadWarrior said:
    Alternatively change Void tiles from being an unowned tile to being something that can be removed by any of the myriad powers that remove special tiles.

    Yeah, this has to be a bug/oversight, right?

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,471 Chairperson of the Boards

    No, I kind of think Chasm was an intentional Mary Sue. Plus Broken Circle seems really enamored with character specific tiles for some reason.

  • killercool
    killercool Posts: 280 Mover and Shaker

    @ThaRoadWarrior said:
    No, I kind of think Chasm was an intentional Mary Sue. Plus Broken Circle seems really enamored with character specific tiles for some reason.

    Wouldn’t Chasm be a Marty Stu?

  • Zalasta
    Zalasta Posts: 294 Mover and Shaker

    Maybe they should rework Hela (goddess of death) and give her a passive that negates the resurrection meta.

  • GrimSkald
    GrimSkald Posts: 2,668 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @ThaRoadWarrior said:
    Alternatively change Void tiles from being an unowned tile to being something that can be removed by any of the myriad powers that remove special tiles.

    Yeah, this has to be a bug/oversight, right?

    Unfortunately, no. There is a category of tiles that are considered "unowned" and therefore don't belong to either team The big example are Web tiles, but they also include things like charged tiles, locked tiles (I think,) and some really odd ones like the Silver Surfer's black hole (it continues to be there even if the Silver Surfer is downed, it's really weird.)

    Most of the "special tile" targeting things treat these unowned tiles like basic tiles - MThor for example will still destroy them (I think, not 100% sure of Void tiles but I have seen her blow up web tiles,) but not prefer them, hitting them no more than any other tile.

    But I agree, having Chasm "own" the void tiles will help - a lot of the "special tile destruction" powers are very specific (they say "Strike, Protect, or attack tile") but some aren't.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2022

    The categorisation of tile types can be found in the game faq. It has been there since I played MPQ in 2017. What's weirder is that players don't seem to be aware of its (in-game faq) existence.

  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2022

    It is less than they are not aware of what is and isn’t a special tile or the in game faq, it’s why what is considered special hasn’t been updated to include the new character specific tiles.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2022

    Special tile members are fixed because there hasn't been any new tile of its class created. If it's not special tile, then it falls into other category.

    Any power that target random tiles will be able to target playable characters' character tiles, subjected to RNG. The tricky part is trying to figure out non-playable characters' character tiles, which are usually found in boss events. For example Dr Ock's tentacle tiles or Ultron's bombs.

    If we are talking about Abyss tiles, I believe it was revealed to be character tiles in his character thread.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,999 Chairperson of the Boards

    Void tiles aren't listed in that FAQ at all. Neither are tentacle tiles (Doc Ock). I can't see a "last updated" date on there but it probably hasn't been updated since before 5* Doc Ock was released.

  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards

    I agree, there is no reason special tiles couldn’t be updated. They just haven’t been.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    Probably because it wasn't necessary? Players can figure out by using deduction/logic if they decide to put in a little effort.

    Strike, Protect, Attack, repeater, cd, Invisibility are special tiles. These are the only special tiles in the game. If there is new special tile, the dev will likely create a new thread about it.

    The confusion comes from destruction of tiles. Powers that destroy random tiles will be able to target all tiles in the game, subjected to RNG. mThor destroys random tiles, so it will also target Character tiles. Because her power prioritises special tiles, it will always destroy special tiles first. Again, the tricky part is that some boss events have their own special rules.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    I think it has more to do with players playing MPQ without much thoughts all these years due to meta characters finishing matches in a few turns. You'll barely know what most of the other non-meta characters do if you're a meta chaser unless for some reasons, they are difficult to deal with.

    When Chasm came to MPQ with his Abyss tiles, he slows things down and force players to think about his mechanics and Abyss tiles. Players can't finish matches in a few turns like they did with Polaris/R4G or Hulkoye.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,999 Chairperson of the Boards

    I mean, which is it? Players are too lazy because they don't look at the documentation (where everything is explained), or players don't need complete documentation because they should figure things out on their own?

  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2022

    I think if Abyss tiles were considered special then Chasm would have his nerf in mThor. The question wasn’t what are considered special tiles it was speculating how the Chasm meta might have looked with this minor tweak. It is a good question. But everyone gets that is not the case.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,471 Chairperson of the Boards

    There are a lot of rules that feel inconsistently implemented to my game developer’s eye, but what can you do?

    @Zalasta said:
    Maybe they should rework Hela (goddess of death) and give her a passive that negates the resurrection meta.

    About 20 pages back I remarked that Hela, Thanos, and Black Panther are all characters that could use a freshening up and have strong thematic Death Control opportunities.

  • hygge_hound
    hygge_hound Posts: 55 Match Maker

    @entrailbucket said:
    I mean, which is it? Players are too lazy because they don't look at the documentation (where everything is explained), or players don't need complete documentation because they should figure things out on their own?

    It's whatever his dev deities want him to say it is at the time he's commenting to defend them (which is at all times).

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    Hela countering chasm? No, no.
    They already equipped SS with a counter, and I don't see SS at all. First, is a classic and not everyone has a classic champed. Second, Hela is outclassed. She belongs to an era where special tiles did matter. Her green could be ok, but red and blue are really meh because of that.
    Why is so good SW, a counter to Ihulk and AoE? There are many factors and it should apply to any new counters:

    • counters AoE but also counters multiple hits (electro not so she is more niche although gives yellow)
    • has sinergy with every character in the game
    • gives protection which can be used to troll AI as AI will fire a power dealing a lot less damage
    • board control and the ice on the cake, damage boost.
      She is a hard counter to Ihulk but these factors make her a top tier character for pvp, although she only lacks speed.
      Speed would be actually the most important factor and is determinant to see character's usage (SS doesn't prevails against chasm).

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