Polaris has ruined PVP???

Bad

So Mr passive disabler would screw okoye, ihulk, polaris, brb, kitty, juggernaut, grocket, wanda, apocalypse,thor, medusa, morbius, AW, colossus, etc...
Not bad! I think one can finish faster saying wich characters would not be affected by that Mr.

Borstock

Bad said:

So Mr passive disabler would screw okoye, ihulk, polaris, brb, kitty, juggernaut, grocket, wanda, apocalypse,thor, medusa, morbius, AW, colossus, etc...
Not bad! I think one can finish faster saying wich characters would not be affected by that Mr.

The ideal Mr. Disabler probably wouldn't affect a lot of those characters. For example, Medusa could still drop her tile and the tile itself could still do it's dmg once on the board. I don't even think he'd stop Wanda, actually. He'd stop Polaris' dmg at the start of a turn, iHulk's AoE, Jugg4rnaut's AoE, Morbius' frenzy (dmg only), etc... You'd be looking to calm down Polaris and the other characters who get dmg for doing nothing. You're not trying to break the game.

KGB

Borstock said:

Bad said:

So Mr passive disabler would screw okoye, ihulk, polaris, brb, kitty, juggernaut, grocket, wanda, apocalypse,thor, medusa, morbius, AW, colossus, etc...
Not bad! I think one can finish faster saying wich characters would not be affected by that Mr.

The ideal Mr. Disabler probably wouldn't affect a lot of those characters. For example, Medusa could still drop her tile and the tile itself could still do it's dmg once on the board. I don't even think he'd stop Wanda, actually. He'd stop Polaris' dmg at the start of a turn, iHulk's AoE, Jugg4rnaut's AoE, Morbius' frenzy (dmg only), etc... You'd be looking to calm down Polaris and the other characters who get dmg for doing nothing. You're not trying to break the game.

That's entirely different that a total passive disabler. A power (passive or AP cost) that just reduces / disables passive damage (iHulk, Juggs  etc) / damage boost (Okoye) is something reasonable and could scale via covers (20/40/60/80/100).

A total passive disabler would be off the charts OP regardless of whether it was a passive power or one that had a condition (special tile at start or AP cost power for X turns). Imagine trying to cost it like Thanos Purple (disabled for X turns) given his costs 9 just to disable board manipulation. A total passive ban would need to cost like 20+ AP for a few turns.

KGB

P.S. Polaris biggest issue to me is that her passive that creates tiles is allowed to create before the tile drop process so that subsequent cascades that hit newly placed specials do more damage and create more specials. If that passive just did damage on the initial match and then placed all the newly created specials at the end of the cascade sequence it would be reigned in nicely.

entrailbucket

KGB said:

Borstock said:

Bad said:

So Mr passive disabler would screw okoye, ihulk, polaris, brb, kitty, juggernaut, grocket, wanda, apocalypse,thor, medusa, morbius, AW, colossus, etc...
Not bad! I think one can finish faster saying wich characters would not be affected by that Mr.

The ideal Mr. Disabler probably wouldn't affect a lot of those characters. For example, Medusa could still drop her tile and the tile itself could still do it's dmg once on the board. I don't even think he'd stop Wanda, actually. He'd stop Polaris' dmg at the start of a turn, iHulk's AoE, Jugg4rnaut's AoE, Morbius' frenzy (dmg only), etc... You'd be looking to calm down Polaris and the other characters who get dmg for doing nothing. You're not trying to break the game.

That's entirely different that a total passive disabler. A power (passive or AP cost) that just reduces / disables passive damage (iHulk, Juggs  etc) / damage boost (Okoye) is something reasonable and could scale via covers (20/40/60/80/100).

A total passive disabler would be off the charts OP regardless of whether it was a passive power or one that had a condition (special tile at start or AP cost power for X turns). Imagine trying to cost it like Thanos Purple (disabled for X turns) given his costs 9 just to disable board manipulation. A total passive ban would need to cost like 20+ AP for a few turns.

KGB

P.S. Polaris biggest issue to me is that her passive that creates tiles is allowed to create before the tile drop process so that subsequent cascades that hit newly placed specials do more damage and create more specials. If that passive just did damage on the initial match and then placed all the newly created specials at the end of the cascade sequence it would be reigned in nicely.

Again, I think Mr. Only Passive Damage Disabler suffers from the same problem as v1.0.  He seems like someone that players would really like to use, but would be extremely upset about having to fight against.

Imagine the devs sticking that guy in a CL10 challenge node.  I think half the game would just quit on the spot.

hothie

KGB said:

P.S. Polaris biggest issue to me is that her passive that creates tiles is allowed to create before the tile drop process so that subsequent cascades that hit newly placed specials do more damage and create more specials. If that passive just did damage on the initial match and then placed all the newly created specials at the end of the cascade sequence it would be reigned in nicely.

I like this idea because that one cascade can change the outcome of a game, but I think I disagree with it because of how it would affect other characters. One of the aspects of this game that I appreciate is the concise sequence of events that occurs. The developers have obviously spent a lot of time considering when things happen, and in what order. That's one of the attractive aspects of the game for me, that disambiguity of when things occur in a sequence.

For example, how would this affect Daken on a green match? Would the devs have to change the entire sequence process to make it fair and consistent across the board, or just the wording on Polaris' ability?

Borstock

KGB said:

Borstock said:

Bad said:

So Mr passive disabler would screw okoye, ihulk, polaris, brb, kitty, juggernaut, grocket, wanda, apocalypse,thor, medusa, morbius, AW, colossus, etc...
Not bad! I think one can finish faster saying wich characters would not be affected by that Mr.

The ideal Mr. Disabler probably wouldn't affect a lot of those characters. For example, Medusa could still drop her tile and the tile itself could still do it's dmg once on the board. I don't even think he'd stop Wanda, actually. He'd stop Polaris' dmg at the start of a turn, iHulk's AoE, Jugg4rnaut's AoE, Morbius' frenzy (dmg only), etc... You'd be looking to calm down Polaris and the other characters who get dmg for doing nothing. You're not trying to break the game.

That's entirely different that a total passive disabler. A power (passive or AP cost) that just reduces / disables passive damage (iHulk, Juggs  etc) / damage boost (Okoye) is something reasonable and could scale via covers (20/40/60/80/100).

A total passive disabler would be off the charts OP regardless of whether it was a passive power or one that had a condition (special tile at start or AP cost power for X turns). Imagine trying to cost it like Thanos Purple (disabled for X turns) given his costs 9 just to disable board manipulation. A total passive ban would need to cost like 20+ AP for a few turns.

I knew all of this.

shardwick

Borstock said:

shardwick said:

KGB said:

shardwick said:

The game just needs a 4* with a passive ability to disable enemy passive powers as long as a certain condition has been met so it doesn't become completely OP. Something like tile fortification where the character starts the game with a fortified tile and just as long as it's on the board enemy passives are disabled. That would cripple so many characters like Polaris, Okoye, iHulk, 5witch, Colossus, Chavez, Prof $, Half Thor, 5trange, Medusa, Kitty and more.

A passive that disabled passives would be vastly OP.  For example all goon AP generation comes via passive so such an ability would break PvE with goons. Even XMen vs Apoc boss event would be ruined because Apoc's heal and AP destruction are all passive. Then it would totally over power so many other characters who aren't even close to meta (ie would disable healing by Wolverines, Dakens, X-23s and Phoenix rising from ashes and so on).

Then what happens when 2 such characters play against each other. Are both teams passives disabled or does my passive disable your passive because I went first .

I imagine it would be a nightmare of coding to attempt such a thing and we'd all be asking for a nerf of it immediately because it is so OP.

Stunning is the time honored way to disable passives.

KGB

I'm not sure why you went on a big rant when I clearly said that I wanted the ability to have a condition that was met so that it wouldn't be OP. Also, are people begging for a nerf of 5* Thanos' purple because it shuts down a lot of abilities when its countdown is on the board? Something similar could be done for passive abilities. 

The reason no one cares about Thanos' purple is that he's usually dead before it comes into play. Its not a great example for your argument, because it isn't a true hard counter. A true hard counter to a power that has no conditions is another power that also has no conditions.

Having a passive power that disables passives and doesn't need a condition to do so would be overpowered which I've already said, which is why I said that it needs a condition otherwise people will be screaming like banshees to nerf the character. Just some similar ways that the power could be done.

Make a match 4/5 to gain an ability with a special board tile- 5* Doc Ock
Have more AP than opponent to gain an ability - Chavez
If Character's health is above/below X% health they gain an ability - Warlock, 5* versions of Thor and Daredevil
Have X amount of certain AP to gain an ability - Okoye, Warlock
Have X amount of all AP to gain an ability - Wiccan
Spend X amount of AP to disable abilities - 5* Thanos
Removing character specific tile gains an ability - Gwenpool

HoundofShadow

Such ability will cause the game to be buggy, I suppose.  However, using teamup as an example, it seems they already have the code to filter out abilities that can't be sent.

Again, I'm not sure how much more advantages the players need. The AI have a lot of disadvantages like:

1) matching their own special tiles
2) hardly makes match-5
3) can't fire powers of the same colour multiple times (except under rare circumstances)
4) doesn't know how to save up aps
5) can fire powers only in specific sequence
6) Can't move players' characters to the front actively

Now, you want an ability that denies them passive abilities. Such abilities actually already existed in the game: stunning them or sending them airborne. I think if such mechanic exists, everyone's passive abilities should be locked out instead. Think Balance of Power where all characters' levels are the same. However, goons will be sitting ducks because they can't move tiles at all.

The dev can simply do a trial by locking out all characters with at least one passive ability. First, they can avoid potential bug. Second, players will have a feel of how it's like to play "actively" again. 

Cannibalqueen

I think a cool passive power would be that if an enemy fires an AOE, base damage would be reflected back at a random enemy.
And that damage would probably end up being amplified by Apoc or Okoye and also strikes because it would be generating from an ally.

edit: off topic from my original post but two more pretty massive advantages players have is being able to fire a power after making a match 5.  Which might fall under number 5, but specifically worth mentioning I think.

and then also how they nerfed RNG on the AI’s turn.  If I remember correctly that is.
the tiles on an enemy’s turns don’t fall randomly, they are actually slanted to give less profitable drops in regards to making further cascades,I remember this being a thing that was actually announced at some point.

acescracked

How the heck does a mirror match work with a character that has a passive power that disables passive powers?!?!

Srheer0

One would act before the other.  

I believe yours works before the enemies

Bad

So Mr Passive Disabler Not Breaker Game it is released and he becomes meta. Instantly he becomes a third for hulkoye teams SIM on defense. 
Great job! Now go and face a hulkoye team with crippled skills, and smiling meanwhile. 

DAZ0273

Cannibalqueen said:

I think a cool passive power would be that if an enemy fires an AOE, base damage would be reflected back at a random enemy.
And that damage would probably end up being amplified by Apoc or Okoye and also strikes because it would be generating from an ally.

edit: off topic from my original post but two more pretty massive advantages players have is being able to fire a power after making a match 5.  Which might fall under number 5, but specifically worth mentioning I think.

and then also how they nerfed RNG on the AI’s turn.  If I remember correctly that is.
the tiles on an enemy’s turns don’t fall randomly, they are actually slanted to give less profitable drops in regards to making further cascades,I remember this being a thing that was actually announced at some point.

I believe that the AI has a limit on how many cascades it can get per turn but think that might have only applied to PvE not PvP.

DAZ0273

At the rate we are going here, we will end up with a character who passively wins the match just by selecting him/her/them. Then we will ask the Devs to have an option where the game auto-selects that character and 2 other random/essential ones. 

HoundofShadow

The cascade limit (due to new players' complains) applies in pves, not pvps.

Players' passives always kick off first. This is not the first time a passive ability to disable passive abilities was brought up. I imagine it will require a lot of efforts from the devs because they have to change the behaviours of goons and hard code some abilities to interact with the anti-passive passive. For example, 4* Juggernaut's AoE is hardcoded not to work with Okoye and Supports. Also, imagine playing against opponents that simply sit there and do nothing. Ultrons can't destroy tiles and they don't have active powers to fire. They can only match damage you to death.

Edit:
However, they can build ideas around the above. Make it Balance of Power version 2. Not only everyone's at 550, but all passive abilities are disabled.

Bad

By the way there are 2 powers in game crippling passives and other powers: debilitating hex, and insatiable darkness.
A passive disabling passives no matter how you put it, it is OP.

ThaRoadWarrior

Active powers that are intended to counter passive powers always seem to cost way more turns to gather AP for than is effective, to the degree they really don't work at all. 

The Darkness Hungers costs 8 black AP + 3-5 purple AP to cycle over to that skill. At best you're looking at 2-3 turns to fire that, and since C&D have 4* health, it really isn't a great option at the 5* tier.

Debilitating Hex costs 9 blue, so again even with as much pre-blue as you can bring to the match you're still 2-3 turns from laying one down. 

It should be said also that neither of those abilities stops a passive through direct passive blocking, they just drop the covers on an ability down to minimum 1, which is definitely helpful, but won't for instance stop an iHulk from reviving or Chavez and Karnak from dropping criticals on you. It will drop Kitty's repeater down below the threshold where it can overwrite CDs though, so it's at least proof against that.

Thano5's purple I really think is a great example of how you can mitigate problematic passives without actually blocking them outright, it just costs too much to be effective. It even has the risk/reward of preventing his own teammates from manipulating the board (barring a few outliers like I think Doom's yellow)

And of course there is the old Archangel and Lumbercap attempts to stop rampant passive AP gain (Aerial Superiority, 7 Black AP) and active power spam resulting from rampant AP gain (Man Without a Country, 6 Purple AP), but that feels like a meta that's long past in regards to the kinds of passive abilities we see today which are mostly just passive damage or passive mega-boosting of damage.

Kolence

acescracked said:

How the heck does a mirror match work with a character that has a passive power that disables passive powers?!?!

First, I just wish to say that such a passive is a terrible idea. What's left in the game that could trump it, after a power like that? Counters should be more specific, especially the easier they are to work and the stronger their effects, imo...

But mechanically, it could disable everything but itself, easy peasy.

entrailbucket

ThaRoadWarrior said:

And of course there is the old Archangel and Lumbercap attempts to stop rampant passive AP gain (Aerial Superiority, 7 Black AP) and active power spam resulting from rampant AP gain (Man Without a Country, 6 Purple AP), but that feels like a meta that's long past in regards to the kinds of passive abilities we see today which are mostly just passive damage or passive mega-boosting of damage.

What's interesting is that both Archangel and IW Cap were targeted counters, aimed at Gambit, whose passive AP gain completely dominated the meta at that time.  Neither one had any impact on his use.  Shortly after that Gambit was nerfed.

I'm sure this is just meaningless trivia that will never repeat itself in the future.

Kolence

entrailbucket said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

And of course there is the old Archangel and Lumbercap attempts to stop rampant passive AP gain (Aerial Superiority, 7 Black AP) and active power spam resulting from rampant AP gain (Man Without a Country, 6 Purple AP), but that feels like a meta that's long past in regards to the kinds of passive abilities we see today which are mostly just passive damage or passive mega-boosting of damage.

What's interesting is that both Archangel and IW Cap were targeted counters, aimed at Gambit, whose passive AP gain completely dominated the meta at that time.  Neither one had any impact on his use.  Shortly after that Gambit was nerfed.

I'm sure this is just meaningless trivia that will never repeat itself in the future.

They might have worked on the initial Gambit AP gain. Though I doubt it? 

They had no chance against Gambit 2.0's own passive AP drain though. Even as a relatively cheap powers, playing 1 AP vs 7 AP when exchanging simple match-3s is quite enough to make them fail, but on top, they were tied to Countdowns and thus vulnerable to Gambit's Purple too.