Nerf Okoye

PiMacleod

Yeah, I would never call for an Okoye nerf.  I understand how crazy strong she is, but honestly, she isn't unbeatable, and she's got her own crutches (requiring AP, and needing to be in front).  

And yes, half-Thor powers her yellow well... which requires a couple turns to GET that AP, so that you can have it on the board to match, so that your powers can be...well...powered.

For a little while, I WAS running the Thorkoye 2099 team.  Love it.  Great team.  But when Polaris came out, it was basically a matter of "oh, this takes NO AP to start, and it's nearly impossible to not find a strike tile to play with".

That's all.  What's that acronym...  YMMV?  That's probably the point.  It might even be partly the point that my Okoye has only been recently champed around, maybe, a year ago?  So it's a baby champ, and doesn't have all those extra levels that everyone else has.  My Kitty is in the same place... and maybe that's the better alternative, due to the baby-champ status?  

I find that sometimes, my half-Thor/baby-champ Apoc is just as fast, but it has the same requirement -- but instead of TU AP, it's just yellow I need.  The red will eventually hit 7 around when yellow does, and then Apoc punches peeps for a nice spread of 48k across the enemies.  Add in baby-champ SamDak for a nice passive black outlet to proc those yellow Shared Strength tiles.

It's all subjective.  Where's my board luck gonna put me?  Is there plenty of yellow?  Team Up AP?  ...or do I just choose Pocket Kitty, and match a strike, no AP needed...  

I'll be honest... I haven't played with the idea TOO much, but I'm thinking of moving my supports around.  If I can find a combination that allows me to do Kitty/Polaris/Juggs, with supports on that create strikes and attacks consistently, it might even be faster.  I just need to buckle down and figure it out, then test it.

EDIT:  I looked at MY supports -- no dice.  I mean, I tried.  Polaris makes one after a turn... Kitty had a support on that made a strike % of the time when matching the strongest color... Juggs had one that had a % chance of making one at the start of the turn.  But there's no way this is as fast.  Too many variables and creating only one at a time, even if it happens, still doesn't guarantee that it gets into a matchable position for Polaris to abuse.  I don't have many strike-creating options, but the ones I have don't guarantee success.  Maybe someone else has better options...  I've never won any infinity gems, and only have 6 rank 4 supports.

Polares

I am going to add something to your consideration @PiMacleod and it is "fun". I think you might be right and Polaris+Kitty+Rocket can be the fastest team around, and I also agree it is probably safer than Thoryoke99 BUT it looks pretty boring. Other than match a strike in the beginning to start the ball rolling you dont have to do anything, just match any tile, buff all of your strikes passively and after a few turns you win. You can try to get blue to stun some of the enemies to make things even easier, or fire Kitty yellow to protect the team a bit, but you dont really need it that much. Seems like a pretty boring even though extremely effective team.

At least with Thoryoke+spidey99 you have to fire some powers, match some colors, try to maximize the TU conversion with Okoye's yellow, etc. This is a fun team to play.

So, as I just play to get all progression rewards, I think for now I prefer that team ( also because my Kitty is not champed :P )

PS: kitty+brb+polaris might be a tad slower but maybe a safer team for scl10?

shardwick

ursopro said:

I just want to ask to people to stay on topic please, also, to the people calling me a troll, that's just rude

Well it's not like your initial post gave any reasoning for why she should be nerfed so I can understand why people would see this as trolling. Honestly this thread should get nerfed.

ursopro

I don't want to impose my believes onto someone else, that's why the opening was kinda vague.

I'm sure everyone here has one or another reason to nerf Okoye, and whatever their reasoning may be is as valid as someone else's.

Anyway, just to keep this thread moving, my first advice to nerfing her would be making her healing the burst type, not permanent.

Thoughts on that, fellow MPQuesters?

ursopro

Just a side note, I want to thank the moderators for keeping this place in order.

BriMan2222

ursopro said:

I don't want to impose my believes onto someone else, that's why the opening was kinda vague.

I'm sure everyone here has one or another reason to nerf Okoye, and whatever their reasoning may be is as valid as someone else's.

Anyway, just to keep this thread moving, my first advice to nerfing her would be making her healing the burst type, not permanent.

Thoughts on that, fellow MPQuesters?

I don't see how that nerf would help anyone but the devs since you'd have to use more health packs when you play her.  When you face her whether her healing is permanent or burst healing doesn't change anything at all.  It's only when you, the player, use her that you will need to use a health pack. 

Borstock

There are many characters that have been released with pathetic attack numbers simply because the dev team anticipates you're using someone to boost their powers. If you nerfed the characters that do the boosting, you turn all of those characters into jokes.

You can't nerf Okoye.

PiMacleod

Borstock said:

There are many characters that have been released with pathetic attack numbers simply because the dev team anticipates you're using someone to boost their powers. If you nerfed the characters that do the boosting, you turn all of those characters into jokes.

You can't nerf Okoye.

Or... you can nerf Okoye if you BUFF EVERYONE!!!  :P

amiright?  amiright?! 

@Polares i can see your point of view there... but honestly, its all the same flavor to me.  Dull.  I've come to accept that MPQ has moved on from it's PQ roots and is basically just a roster collecting and managing game.  The match-3 aspect is very minimal, as all basic meta strategies revolve around the main details, set by the team used.
 --  Is Okoye there?  Match TU AP, yellow as secondary chase.  Fire her yellow all the time; keep her in front.
 --  Is Polaris there?  Match a S/A/P tile.  Fire blue when available.
 --  Do you have 5* Thor on your team?  Get him below half health, don't heal him up, ever.
 --  IHulk on your team?  Don't match greens; use with Okoye, see Okoye's rules.

I can keep going.  And I know you can too.  We all can.  The meta comes down to being really really easy to use with near-guaranteed results, as long as you follow a set formula dictated by the characters you're using.  Some don't even add to the formula, depending on the team!  Example:  If using 2099 with Thorkoye, follow Okoye's and Thor's rules.  2099 doesn't add to them, because (unless you got some weird damage-boosting supports on him for blue tiles), he'll never tank over Okoye or Thor.  Sure, firing his powers add to how quick the team wins, but he doesn't really change how you 'play' the match 3 game.

This can all be wildly misconstrued as "PiMacleod is bored with MPQ"... but I'm not.  Instead, I've moved on from my initial reason for discovering and loving MPQ -- adapting to this stage of the game.  I accept that this game is more about the grind for resources, and the fights are just how to get what you need.  The only puzzles left are the Challenge Nodes, The Welcome to Shield 4th nodes for Day 2 and 3, K-Silly (debatable too), and PvP metas.... and even then, the PvP meta doesn't allow for a lot of "puzzle" either.  Once upon a time, I'd add the bosses in there, but now that's at the point of just "outdamaging" them before they do much.

So, yeah... matching S/A/P tiles is probably boring to some... but I say the same thing for green doors and harbinger antics.  It's all the same formula to me.

killahKlown

I agree with OP

Dogface

True heal is one of the main reasons I love Okoye. It saves so many health packs. I regularly play Grockitty on alt account and at some point you will need to use a health pack, usually on Kitty. 

On her own Okoye isn't a meta character. She doesn't boost herself and her red is quite expensive and not overly powerful. 

killahKlown

The best way to "fix" okoye without making her completely useless is to make her black boost work with active powers only, not passives.

ursopro

killahKlown said:

I agree with OP

thank you sir, I knew there were like minded individuals like me out there.

Xair

nerf Okoye? ridiculous!

generally speaking:
MPQ is mostly about strategically improving your roster, over months and years.
the time investment in each char is huge compared to any other game out there.
using the nerf on meta characters, goes against what this game is mostly about.
as of now the is no real compensation for nerfing a char you worked years on improving.
thus, as long as the character isn't completely broken nerf should be avoided.
if the character is complete broken, the nerf should come sooner rather than later.
 
Okoye specifically:
is essential for CL10 gameplay.
nerfing her wouldn't just hurt all the years of effort put by the all the top players,
it would also hinder cl10 gameplay for all players.

[redacted]

**Mod note: removed inappropriate comments - fight4thedream

fight4thedream

SolidusMox said:

Please provide insight into the topic. Why do you think Okoye should be nerfed?  What do you think is wrong with her and how should she be reworked? Nerf post are pointless unless you also contribute to a solution.

While I won't go so far as to say Okoye needs a nerf, the meta is heavily skewed towards favoring passive boost abilities and it's an issue that should be addressed in some fashion for the sake of better game balance. A new character's value is largely determined by how exploitable their powers are when boosted by such characters.

The problem as I see it is that there currently doesn't exist a good counter strategy to keep Okoye's passive boost ability in check. At least with Kitty, you have Black Suit Spidey and Eddie Brock Venom who can nullify her boost on strike and protect tiles, respectively, as well as a handful of other useful abilities that interact with special tiles (most notably Daredevil's Sonar Strike and 3* Loki's Trickery). Yes, stunning works to some extent but requires AP collection, needs to be long, and requires board luck. However, such a strategy is rather slow and cumbersome.

The reason Okoye/iHulk pairing currently dominates the meta is simple: it's quick, easy and painful to fight against. The opposing player has to worry about four tiles on the board: Green to prevent the AoE, Red to avoid the potential Hulk nuke, Yellow to prevent Okoye healing and generating TU tiles, and TU tiles to prevent boosting Hulk's AoE. To my knowledge, viable options against Okoye/iHulk are Kitty/Beta, Beta/Prof X and Onslaught/Apocalypse. Beta/Carnage is also an option but perhaps too slow to use effectively for climbing unless you have them leveled significantly high.

Not surprisingly, Beta/Kitty is the most reliable because of their strong synergy of protect tile spamming and Kitty boosting those protect tiles. However, they lack the speed and brute efficiency of Okoye/iHulk.

Ideally, what should happen is the same thing that happened with 5* Thor: a natural enemy that hinders Okoye's passive should be implemented. With the arrival of iHulk, there was a steep drop in use of Thor among high end players because in order for Thor to do his thing, he needs to be below 50% health. With the introduction of iHulk's AoE, the risk of running Thor at 50% is too high and simply not sustainable. That's not to say Okoye/iHulk team cannot defeat an Okoye/iHulk just that it lacks the same speed, sustainability and is simply outgunned.

Fortunately for the God of Thunder, PvE does not feature constant AoE attacks so he still has a place at the meta table. 

What has happened in high end PvP play is basically a dividing of those who have a high level Okoye and those that do not (generally speaking of course, there are those that have high level counter teams but they are far fewer). As @thedarkphoenix hinted at in their post, if this situation is not addressed then by simply having invested in this one character you have basically won when it comes to PvP and PvE, regardless of what new characters are released.

Such players only need to wait for another character with another easy passive or cheap attack ability to exploit utilizing Okoye's passive to continue to excel at PvP.

This is also a similar issue with Kitty. I think it was a serious design misstep for the dev team to enable her to boost all strike, protect, and attack tiles. Had they limited her to just strike tiles, for example, they could have left the door open for other characters to boost the other type of tiles. It's actually part of the reason why the recently released Magneto's own passive ability has been so poorly received. But I digress.

I know @Vhailorx mentioned adding more damage boosters but under the current game design that will simply mean people will drift to the character with the most efficient and highest damaging boost. It doesn't really solve the problem at all. Although admittedly, Vhailorx and I value different things when it comes to PvP.

So what are the solutions to this situation?

Natural enemies
Natural enemies with counter abilities, in this particular case we need a character or characters that does one or some of the following and it will most likely have to be a passive ability in order to be effective:

*punish healing abilities: maybe something like a poison ability that does extra damage when a character tries to heal

*punish TU collecting: This would have to be a high damage passive ability that increases in damage for each TU the opponent has

*TU denial: Onslaught does this to some extent, but I am sure this area can be expanded upon

*TU burning: Another ability that will have to be a passive to be effective and the character will have to do something else awesome cause this isn't going to fly by itself

*Stun: probably the one players will least like judging by the distaste many had for Bishop

Buff abilities on existing characters

5* Wasp: A prime candidate for a buff, if she had a passive ability that placed one or two swarm tiles on TU tiles per turn and included damage reduction per each swarm tile on the board, it would help offset the high cost of her abilities and better enable her active abilities to do higher damage. Probably, wouldn't make her meta because high AP cost abilities are undesirable but would make her a lot more fun and interesting and would make her a viable partner to counter Okoye teams.

There are other things that can be done but that goes into what some might call a nerf area so I will leave it be.

tl; dr: If left as is, characters with good passive abilities such as Okoye and Kitty will be a perennial fixture in high end PvP play. This affects the meta negatively because a new character's value is largely determined by how well their abilities can be exploited by passive boost characters. It also creates a two-class system that favors having a high level boost type character to the detriment of other character types. I advocate for the introduction of characters that hard counter characters who have passive boost abilities.

HoundofShadow

If Okoye is nerfed, I believe that the number of players who quit will be significant. 

Okoye is easy to beat and easy to use. Her damage boost can be countered easily by not putting her in front. Generic counters are stunning her or sending her airborne. Her abilities aside, she also represents the kind of values that Marvel has been moving towards: diversity. Therefore, the probability of the dev nerfing her is virtually zero.

Instead of nerf, counters would be more appropriate because it could help to shift the meta around. Currently, in 5* land, there are two specific counters: OMD to deal with her healing and Onslaught to deal with TU tiles. Another type of direct counter is creating character who can steal TU ap passively. Think GED or 5* Deadpool. 

I don't think Okoye is essential for scl10 because Polaris/BRB/Kitty can get the job done. However, Okoye is essential if you are targeting to finish SCL 10 within 20-35 minutes, depending on the levels.

So, more counters are generally better.

Xair

the second one abuses power is when one start losing it.
one might not realize it right away, cause one might still be high on it. 
but on retrospect one will see when it all began.

JackDeath666

If anything I think she needs a buff. 

Vhailorx

Dogface said:

True heal is one of the main reasons I love Okoye. It saves so many health packs. I regularly play Grockitty on alt account and at some point you will need to use a health pack, usually on Kitty. 

On her own Okoye isn't a meta character. She doesn't boost herself and her red is quite expensive and not overly powerful. 

I am pretty sure okoye DOES boost herself (and she certainly applies her boosted damage to the aoe attack created by the royal talon fighter support).  The problem is that by herself, red is her only direct damage and is relatively slow.  I would also suggest that it's a bit disingenuous to argue that okoye isn't meta because she is only ok solo. 

(1) I don't know that it is true that she is only ok solo.  she is slow on her own, but still reasonably strong thanks to a high damage ceiling and true heal. 

(2) Almost all of this game requires team play and the selection of at least 2 character (only the scattered 1v1 nodes and the challenge column of welcome to shield are pick1), and by her very nature okoye makes just about any teammate much better (and any teammate that can generate lots of damage ticks OR produce yellow AP becomes sublime with her). 

So I would argue that okoye is inarguably meta no matter how you cut it.  I just think that the case for nerfing her is terribly weak.  She is easy to fight, so she doesn't have a strong negative effect on subjective PVP experience, and she is a huge time save in PVE where the game that asks for 40+ (60+ below CL10) matches from players every day. 

The solution, IMO, is to add more damage boosters to the game.  damage boosting is such a huge part of the meta, and has been since at least 2018, that almost all new characters are designed in anticipation of their boosted numbers rather than their base damage. Yet we still only have three top tier damage boosters in the game, (kitty, apoc, okoye, and a few second tier options like DD and 2099).  More options will make each of those strong meta characters feel less dominant.  (incidentally, this is why I am relatively high on Heimdall's future meta prospects: cost-reduction is effectively backdoor damage boosting.  If he just got a partner that could passively make lots of red fortified tiles, I think he would pretty clearly become factor in the meta.)

ThaRoadWarrior

Some character who can boost say Quake's defense passive the same way Okoye can boost iHulk's offensive passive would potentially help, but that power can't be active if they want it to "work" in practice against a passive. It never has, but it keeps happening. Unless your power costs 3ap (a single standard match you can get on the start of battle turn), it costs too much to "work."

Bzhai

How bout you suggest buffs to underperforming characters instead? God knows the devs need the practise.