On Retroactive Rewards

Cactus_Jack_87

I haven't read through all of these posts, so I apologize if someone has already said it, but this whole ordeal is a shining example of why D3 should really consider preemptively consulting with a group of dedicated players who love the game and who invest dozens of hours each week into it BEFORE stuff like this rolls out. This shard issue and retroactive reward update hasn't been simply about not getting enough "free stuff," it's about getting **** after the thousands of hours and dollars that some have put into this game by establishing high expectations and giving so little in return. If the devs had checked with a group of committed players before releasing this mess, I can almost promise you that it could have been fixed into something that would have made nearly everyone happy, instead of making everyone that is "plugged in" to the community very upset and feeling quite cheated.

From the comments that I've seen from the devs themselves on Discord, they don't even understand why people are upset about this. That is a problem. It has long been apparent that devs don't seem to understand the 5* tier and the obsession that many have with PVP, but this seems to be a whole new level of naivety that is pretty worrisome to the overall state of the game for high level players. Get some help D3, we are here and offering it for free to help improve the quality of the game that we all enjoy playing together.

P.S., I nominate @The rockett to be on this theoretical MPQ Player Peer Group, he is a pretty smart guy when it comes to Marvel-themed match three games. Rockett, please remember us lowly people when you hit the big time. Please never forget when we used to Call the Swarm together.

AndiTi

I’ve posted previously on this thread, but after some time to think it through I wanted to provide my total, honest feedback to you, the developers, from a business standpoint. I appreciate the conversations here about fairness, and communication, and what people have the right to expect and what the developers have the right to do. That’s all valid, but ultimately what this comes down to for you, the developers, is was this decision good or bad for business? I can only speak for me, but I’m betting I’m not alone in this.

I think I’m likely an ideal customer for this game. I have a passion for Marvel, for collecting, and I have disposable income. I’ve spent quite a bit on this game, well into 4 figures, because I can and I enjoy it. My GamerID is Andi-Ti, in iOS. I’m sure you can look up my spending habits to validate this. 

I’ve seen the argument that this is your game, you can do what you want with it. Accurate, but also shortsighted. Mrs. Fields can decide to serve vomit flavored cookies. Lexus can decide to sell **** cars. It is their decision to do so. However if it drives customers to not spend money on their business, it’s a really short-sighted decision. You see, true business is about a symbiotic relationship with your customers. You have to balance profit and loss decisions with decisions that keep customers returning to spend money. That’s just plain free-market reality.

So I say this to you now, as honest, measured, candid feedback. This update has angered me enough as a consumer that my spending stops until it is addressed in some manner. You now have my GamerID. You can validate that too, at your leisure. 

It’s really not relevant whether I’m wrong for wanting to “double-dip”, or I’m not respecting it’s “your game”, or I’m whining over “free stuff”. Your business decision, and how you handled it, angered me as a consumer enough to decide not to spend. It’s up to you what you do with that, but I think you ignore that type of customer sentiment at your peril.

Will I continue to play? Sure. I still love collecting and Marvel. But I am far enough along now that I don’t feel I “need” to spend money to advance. I’m not addicted to the spending enough to override my anger at this decision. To spend again, I’d like to see some acknowledgement that this was handled poorly, and some real, honest attempt to reach out to me as a consumer. Make me feel like you care enough about my satisfaction that I want to spend more money on your game. What does that look like? I don’t know. I’ll leave that for you to decide what a middle ground might be.

Thank you for listening.

Kojubat

PinkoMcFlyToo said:

Daredevil217 said:
Back on topic, I don’t know what else needs to be said or how much more “data” needs to be collected before we get an official response. We are all sharing our various stories of how we got hurt by this but the running themes are the same. 

I think we all know the "data" is whether or not their daily/weekly sales are taking a hit.

That data should be available later today - something that traditionally drives high level spending goes live in less than three hours. Anything else could be explained as "expected variance" or "anomalous" by a data spin doctor.

Vhailorx

AXP_isme said:

I can only assume that there are metrics out there suggesting that more items in the larger game economy depresses overall spending. I can’t really see any other reason not to create some good will by showering all the player base with largesse. Seriously, a cover or shard or token or whatever costs almost nothing to give out yet it creates good will and potentially the scenario in which people are more inclined to spend (near a shard threshold, or with extra covers needing to be rostered, for instance). Surely the combination of feeling good about the generosity of the game and the artificial scarcity (or appearance thereof) for a particular commodity creates a more compelling long-term spending paradigm than scarcity alone. 

Just play Santa! Shower everyone with gifts (and not that crummy: “here’s one token for a vault where you’re almost guaranteed to end up with a 2*” type of generosity we usually get) and make them feel good about MPQ. I’ve played for a long time and I feel closer to the exit now than at any time over the last 5+ years. I will wait to see how shards get built in to the progression rewards but if that follows the same pattern, give with one hand and take with the other, then I think I’ll call it a day. I don’t particularly want to, I enjoy the core mechanic a lot, but I’ve almost completely lost faith. 

Yes, demi/d3 clearly feel that more stuff going out = less money coming in.  It's clear from the in-game actions they take, and the framing they use both here on the forums and over at discord.

And I just don't buy that this is always true.  Lots of developers of live service games have discovered that the exact opposite is true, (often as a result of "bugs" that accidentally boost the loot drop rate, and result in a massive surge in player engagement.). This has happened to diablo, and destiny, and anthem, and the division, etc.  "Loot 2.0" is a borderline meme in that gaming space.

Obviously there is some point of finishing returns where giving out too much stuff will prevent spending.  But MPQ seems SO FAR away from that point that Demi/d3's concerns seem myopic. 

As I have been arguing for literal years, why doesn't every player who participates in a release pve event get 1 cover?  This would make players VERY happy.  It would incentivize regular play.  It would not dis-incentivize hard grinding for those who want more covers. It would have no effect on gameplay as a single cover is almost always useless.  It would even increase the roster pressure on newer players (which is probably the #1 driver of 'first mpq purchases') without being particularly punitive because rostering characrers makes people happy and this could be planned out since it would be predictable.

It's such an obvious win-win change that could be done easily and instead demi has just tightened the screws on the other end of things with shield training and other systems.  And this is just one of many ways that I think the devs could offer more rewards without compromisjng the game's viability.

Vins2

LLohm said:

Dear @IceIX,

can you help facilitate a swift resolution with Demiurge so they know what they can expect from Amazon Digital Day?

A swift answer with firm resolution will go a long way with us all and we would love to splurge during this holiday period!

edited for typo and context

I thought mpq wasn't a part of the Amazon digital day sale anymore. Did they get reinstated?

PiMacleod

Blergh said:

Been a while since I posted, but thought I'd add my two cents to the thread. 

I play a lot of games. Kind of my job, work for Future across a lot of their properties like PC Gamer, Kotaku, Games Radar and a few other gaming properties. And in all honesty, I think this outcry about champion rewards is a symptom of much bigger problems in the design of the game. 

I think you guys, like a lot of mobile developers, over-rely on metrics gathered from player behaviour and focus on the numbers too much. I think this kind of makes you forget the most crucial element to any game - the player's emotional invest - or the fun factor. You're entertainment and no one likes living in austerity. You need to make the player feel rewarded for playing, not punished or deprived. It's kind of why achievements/trophies both in-game and on profiles were a big hit. They feel like they've earned something. Make your players feel rewarded. Like they are building something. Getting better - going somewhere. 

The meaningful rewards high end are so restricted, I don't feel like I'm being rewarding in any meaningful way. 

I've seen games with the awesome system, imaginative gameplay fail as they didn't have this, while very badly implemented games thrive as they do. In the case of this game, I think a lot that legwork has already been done by the franchise - most people here play other Marvel games - they are emotionally invested in the characters and property already. But, the game itself has never really got this idea or got how rewarding the player generously will get them to invest more, due to a feeling of them getting more out of it.

When you compared it to other games, it feels very much like MPQ is going through a recession. It's frustrating. And the more you progress in the game the less rewarding the experience becomes - increasingly see the same enemies, competing for rewards gets harder, the majority of your roster is locked out, and progress halts. So, when you actively take away the few rewards you do give out that help that progression, you get a big backlash. 

You give them the sense, yes, I am finally gonna get somewhere this character, and you take it away - impeding them.

I'll unpack why I personally feel the game is unrewarding, as a lot of it is connected, but expressed in different ways. 

One of the biggest unrewarding experiences in the game is the way PVE is organised. The way brackets work and the points are regained force you to play to a schedule and strict pattern if you want to earn the top rewards. If a player comes home late from work and has to ask themself whether they have time to make a cup of tea and some toast before they grind, does that sound like a rewarding or unrewarding experience? Or if they have to apologise to the alliance they've let down for not making the grind due to looking after their ill child, does that sound rewarding? 

So, even before you've begun to play you are creating an atmosphere where the player feels put out by the game. And to a lesser extent, shields in PVP will have the same time restrictions due to length and cool down. So, both aspects of the game need you to have a clear and organised schedule that inhibits the feeling of reward or enjoyment. And wins is kind of too long for 5*s, specially with the colossal healing time.

The feeling of having to sacrifice something negates some of the achievements/rewards they get from finishing in a good position. The resentment may be under the surface but it's there. And the further you progress up the star tier, the more you need to play optimally to progress. As what use is a three cover? Or even a four? or Three elites or even a hero? Not much.

I have 159 shards towards a five cover - so you know, if I keep playing for the next two months I might get a single five cover, which is pretty useless. In 6 months I might get a working five that makes competing in events easier. Slow. So slow. Sure, I could buy it, but why would I? It's hardly a great investment when compared to other games, more expensive for a character in a game that offers me very little return. In other games, I'd most probably be near to having maxed top tier characters within a few months with spending less money- not a single cover. So, I'll invest more in them - as my return is greater. And they are more fun as I am getting rewarded more often.

And that doesn't mean they are giving me more stuff - just making me feel that fun factor or sense of achievement. That I am getting somewhere and getting better. Extra damage across all characters, extra resource collection for levelling up, extra slots to hold stuff, - you know stuff coded in the game that isn't a resource or related to characters. Just unlocked through effort and time. So even though their progress in characters is slow, they are given the illusion of progressing through secondary means - if that makes sense?

And there are loads of way you could create this - customizable alliances that level up - can have an x-mansion, stark tower, and stuff. Alliance ranks unlock new features - some kind of resource bonus for levelling up alliances - extra iso - faster heal time. You know there is a lot you could do with that. And you most probably collect a lot of data on damage, amount of enemies down matches won, quickest four clears - just collating at and making it a non-reward best alliance list could be fun to some people - increase competition in a different way. Even achievements locked to characters for bragging rights would be kind of fun. There are numerous ways that you could increase the personal reward, without increasing the actual rewards.

Progress seems to halt dramatically too. I recently came back to the game after a little break, and I don't hoard. The CP you removed from champion rewards may have been lower than elsewhere in the game, but it regularly tipped me over the amount I needed to draw a from a 5* store. So, I am already frustrated at the pace of progression and you have hampered the pace again. And your metrics might not show this lack of progression as it expresses it in numbers, but it is going to slow my pull rate down. And since being back I have managed to get 7 Ice-man about 6 professor x and 6 Carnage covers and loads of fours whose release I missed. Numbers alone would say I am progressing - my roster is being built up. But is it meaningful and rewarding to me as a player? 

The answer is no. A resounding no. Having champed 5*s means the majority of 4*s are useless. They are just a way to access rewards - like CP and LTs or covers. That is the only use I have for them. And you have just reduced their value. There is no excitement or fun there because I am locked out of the tier. There is value but is hardly rewarding. All a new four-star is to me, the majority of the time, is a slow backing invest unlock the rewards I want.

It isn't really exciting or fun as I'll never use it beyond a battery for rewards. The same goes for the under-levelled 5*'s I've got. With champed fives, I can't really use them anyway - as they'll be out levelled and classed by MMR or levels. So even though it looks like progress, it doesn't feel like it. At all. It's more frustrating and slow as the majority of the time I am getting nowhere. And not even fast. So, metrics can lie.

Luckily, I have largely given up on progressing and just play it to pass the time. Thinking over a feature, or whether a piece of content I am preparing for the next day has the right tone or information for the brand audience - mindless match while I chew over it. But that means I also give the game almost (not totally) zero invest money-wise. You know, no emotional investment. I'm getting nothing from the game. Getting a better return else-where. It's more an effort thing usually - drop tenner or go through the effort. Prrft. I'm pretty lazy.

If you look at your player base's comments on this forum, you'll see how frustrated they feel about the progress. It presents in a number of ways, people talking about the dilution of characters, feeling frustrated hoarding for the next good five and wanting to pull but not wanting to be punished for it, or their struggling to tread water by getting all 4*s to 209. None of that talks about progression - in fact, two of the main roster methods are based on halting progression - hoarding and stopping at 450 or building fours to  209 and stopping. Does that seem like a fun way to play? Does it seem rewarding? Does it seem like a good basis for a game with RPG style levelling system?

I mean, the reward structure has largely remained the same for a few years. Might insert new currencies, but you never increase them - while increasing the difficulty to build a meaningful roster. Reducing rewards is like reducing the living wage while increasing inflation. It makes it less fun and gives the player base a great sense of austerity. You have to increase the reward element somehow. At least give the illusion of progress and not make people feel like they're just keeping their head above water. 

There is more to it than this, but I've waffled on for too long.

So people aren't really moaning for free stuff. They're moaning as they don't have the resources to grow. They are moaning as they feel unrewarded as if they're not really achieving anything. They feel stagnant. Frustrated. Stuck. And you don't have to fix that by giving out more rewards - or increasing the rewards in progression. Or even providing more ways to earn a reward - although that would help. You just have to make their efforts or investments feel like they are getting rewarded for it. 

You need to find a way to inject the fun back in for higher rosters, give them that feeling that you're achieving something, not just wasting time or struggling for a 4* cover that won't really give them anything in return, your building something, your progressing - not hitting a dead wall and being punished. Once you looked at metrics, and think about a change - ask if it is rewarding to the player base as a whole - if it will make them go wow and emotionally invest. If not, then it's most probably a bad idea. Think about the whole entertainment aspect. 

So the biggest problem for me is that the reward system doesn't offer me any rewards in any meaningful way. Others will disagree. But I think that's what you really need to fix to stop massive backlashes. 

Giant post.  And i find it hard to read those sometimes, because they can drone on...

HOWEVER -- this post was right on.  

I dont normally complain (much)... Usually just state my current thoughts, and move on.  Little things.  But this post right here?  It spoke to me.  And i read ALL of it.

You see, we all have some sort of RL friends/family that play other games.  Could be any type... But point is, there are other games, and if you're like me, you've been invited to try it.

I usually say no.  I tell them "my life only has enough extra time for ONE mobile game".  And its true.  I dont need more excuses to stare at a tiny screen.  But over time, i've noticed the rate of growth, the return on investment, and the variety of gameplay that other games offer.  There's quite a difference depending on the games you compare MPQ to!

Now, im not about to jump ship anytime soon.  After all, i have fun with puzzle games, and for me, the puzzle is figuring out the new anti-meta and other unconventional ways to win (without raising my time played per day too much).  Recently, i posted elsewhere about an anti-gritty-juggs team i found, and someone else replied to it, saying that it did them wonders as well, when it came to fighting that meta-monster (quake/bishop/nightcrawler).  That was fun.  Thats stuff i like doing.

But the slow return on investment.... Rewards being reduced.... Things taking so long...  Building a usable new character up...  Everything is a slog.  

That post was right on.  The game was already slow compared to all other mobile games, match-3 or not... And now it just got slower.

Side note: i used to try to get others to play MY mobile game of choice, but lately... I know its just not something i would put a new player through.  How can i describe to them what i play, and then tell them "just dont expect a roster like mine until you get at least 2 years or more in, depending on your level of spending"...?  

Blergh

AndiTi said:

I’ve seen the argument that this is your game, you can do what you want with it. Accurate, but also shortsighted. Mrs. Fields can decide to serve vomit flavored cookies. Lexus can decide to sell tinykitty cars. It is their decision to do so. However if it drives customers to not spend money on their business, it’s a really short-sighted decision. You see, true business is about a symbiotic relationship with your customers. You have to balance profit and loss decisions with decisions that keep customers returning to spend money. That’s just plain free-market reality.

Sorry, going slightly off topic, but that's kind of interesting as I have different take on it. 

I don't they solely own the game. A game is partly owned by the community that plays it, whether it is a mobile game or even sports. 

I mean, we invest in it. We give it rules that the creators haven't like 'pvp' etiquette of checks and stuff. A game is kind of owned by the community. As soon as it has entered the community it is upto us how to play, and what is fun. Without people playing it, it would no be a game.

Is a kid on his own, kicking a ball against a wall playing soccer? How about two kids passing it back and fore? How many players are needed before it becomes a game? And who creates the rules them or Fifa? And do we just use it like a product, or give back in terms of advice, guides, and recommendations that help build and define that community? By doing that we are building the game. 

I know, the anology is always flawed. I am just saying a game needs a community. And that community always has a say on how the game is played. They may own the rights, create the rules, characters, but we both are investing in it. As soon as either party disown, it becomes nothing. 

What we are buying isn't the right to play, but some to keep the rules fair, giving us more fun ways to play, and an increased way to interact with the community. So it isn't like a product you buy and use. It is something you invest in and build with them. 

I might be total weirdo though, with a screw loose. 

shadow2999

And yet another day comes without any sign of developer input and insight into what they are actually discussing and what options might be on the table, or at the very least a reasonable and honest explaination as to how we got here.  And every day this goes on with lack of that dialogue the more it will cement people's choice to not invest any further real cash.  They are wasting every opportunity here, and that in mind is borderline criminal negligence.  If I ran a company, even if I had NO intention of admitting to a mistake, I'd at least try to explain the decision and see if I could win back at least a little trust.  Apparently, that doesnt seem to be a priority.

BriMan2222

We were explicitly told that as long as we had the 4 star on our roster we would get all of the updated 5 star rewards when those changes happen.  Whether you think that is "fair" or not, this is what we were told in no uncertain terms would be the norm going forward with next to no warning that this might change.

shadow2999

Thanks man.  Its good to remind the new people to the game to what the rules as outlined by the Dev team themselves said they would go with.  It is clear they screwed up.  It is clear what they need to do to fix the situation, eat a little crow, and then we can all move on.  Its just a matter of whether or not they have the courage and good sense to do what is right for the community and the game (and their bottom line) or not.  Honestly, I don't know why this is even a debate on their end.  They could end this right now, if they so choose.  Dragging this out, serves no benefit to anyone.

cpeyton3535

BriMan2222 said:

We were explicitly told that as long as we had the 4 star on our roster we would get all of the updated 5 star rewards when those changes happen.  Whether you think that is "fair" or not, this is what we were told in no uncertain terms would be the norm going forward with next to no warning that this might change.

I suppose that if they really wanted to they could say that shards aren't covers and point out that they did in fact give us covers where covers were the reward (ie at 280).  I really hope they don't do that, though.  It's counter to the spirit of what was said here b/c shards didn't exist at the time.  Further, it would suggest that delaying many of the new feeders until after the move to shards was a willful and pointed effort to circumvent rewarding covers past 280.  Sadly the latter seems more and more true with each post I read here.

Vhailorx

BriMan2222 said:

We were explicitly told that as long as we had the 4 star on our roster we would get all of the updated 5 star rewards when those changes happen.  Whether you think that is "fair" or not, this is what we were told in no uncertain terms would be the norm going forward with next to no warning that this might change.

Right up until 9 hours before the shard update, when they stealthily gave us contrary information with no explanation.

fmftint

BriMan2222 said:

We were explicitly told that as long as we had the 4 star on our roster we would get all of the updated 5 star rewards when those changes happen.  Whether you think that is "fair" or not, this is what we were told in no uncertain terms would be the norm going forward with next to no warning that this might change.

Except champ reward were not updated with 5star COVERS they were updated with 5star shards. 

MegaBee

fmftint said:

BriMan2222 said:

We were explicitly told that as long as we had the 4 star on our roster we would get all of the updated 5 star rewards when those changes happen.  Whether you think that is "fair" or not, this is what we were told in no uncertain terms would be the norm going forward with next to no warning that this might change.

Except champ reward were not updated with 5star COVERS they were updated with 5star shards. 

I hope that's not what they were going for, but...

DAZ0273

I would also like some clarification moving forward. For example - what happens when Beta Ray Bill gets a feeder?  Is it going to be the exact same chaos as this where if an existing 4* is chosen a whole bunch of players might miss out on retroactive rewards?

bluewolf said:

CAttitude said:

Practically asking, how far should we promote a new, non-feeder 4 in this shard hellscape?  279?  297?  I am worried about CapWorthy in this upcoming Civil War event.

This probably needs to be a separate thread but yes, the underlying message for players who care more about eventual 5's than using a high level 4 is to stop at 299.

It's just amazing that they are telling us that it hurts us to level people too much.

It is a pretty crazy situation. Can they even really risk making any of the old 4* feeders ongoing without getting absolutely murdered? Or does it mean they would need to immediately announce who the feeder is going to be for every new 5*?

Hey Devs - who is going to be feeding Beta Ray Bill please?

pheregas

BriMan2222 said:

We were explicitly told that as long as we had the 4 star on our roster we would get all of the updated 5 star rewards when those changes happen.  Whether you think that is "fair" or not, this is what we were told in no uncertain terms would be the norm going forward with next to no warning that this might change.

It's nice to see that it only took them two years to completely walk back on established official protocol.

And anyone willing to parse semantics unironically about how shards are not 5* covers so it doesn't count can see themselves immediately to the door.

whitecat31

BriMan2222 said:

We were explicitly told that as long as we had the 4 star on our roster we would get all of the updated 5 star rewards when those changes happen.  Whether you think that is "fair" or not, this is what we were told in no uncertain terms would be the norm going forward with next to no warning that this might change.

This is my new Photo Avatar. 

Loosie

@IceIX do have any update? Are the devs/d3 actually getting/reading this feedback?

Is there any talk of people getting the full shards they should have received or any secondary character shards?

zonatahunt

Guys, I’d imagine the screenshot above of how they’d told the player-base protocols going forward would be, is enough proof to warrant refunds of purchases made in preparation for the update.  They said it, and then they strayed majorly from THEIR established protocols.  I’d say any and all refunds are deserved.

gascangascan

Loosie said:

@IceIX do have any update? Are the devs/d3 actually getting/reading this feedback?

Is there any talk of people getting the full shards they should have received or any secondary character shards?

My guess: they are waiting on financial/usage data to see if corrective action, if any, is necessary. That's why we haven't heard anything.

Bottom line: The company currently sells shards for cash - giving away shards is like giving away money - they won't do it unless it is necessary.