On Retroactive Rewards

Omegased

I've already posted about some of my concerns previously - but i've come to realise more over the past few days as i've continued to play.

The shards i've lost at 2star level, means I'll forever have wasted shards on certain characters. I really don't want Spare shards for characters that i typcially don't use due to my level. The problem is this will ALWAYS be the way, so i will continuely be reminded of the loss. forever. every time i play.
 

abenness

They released 9 new feeders at once, giving a path to guaranteed colourless covers for those for anyone wanting to specifically target them or get the elusive missing colour. Kudos, this is one thing that people have wanted for a long time.

They have given the retro reward of the initial fed cover if 280+.  Good.

They top-up the shards if you are inside the grouping of shards leading to 500 shards at the levels which would have been a cover.  This is fair, ensures that you have enough shards for that cover when you do reach the milestone.

They did not give out the covers for every level reached. People expecting this generosity from prior feeder rollout understandably very upset.  But please recognise that this has been generosity. It would have been more fair to always use brand-new 4* as feeders, so retro rewards didn't apply...

Instead, giving out 20% of a cover worth of shards for these milestones. Hmmm

Going forward, everyone receives 5* covers for new progress on their 4* feeders. Fair, to all.

Announcing the feeders, but not having the information on retroactive rewards released at the same time.  This is where I have a pretty big issue.  It was a reasonable expectation that the double-dip of previous feeders would apply.  I and many other people would have pulled or targeted to get the new feeders over milestone levels, to get the LL now and double dip-on the feeder cover/shards.   

When the information was released, it was clear to me that you would get 20% shards instead of covers after level 280. Luckily (for me), that's as far as my roster goes anyway, so I don't have the strong reaction, just disappointment for my friends.


People demanding that the old feeder reward schedule be handed out now for each of these 9 feeders because of the backlash of how this has been handled.  Realistically, this is not going to happen, and I think that we all know this.


One thing that I do see as viable is to compensate those people who have just missed out by passing a milestone level.  eg already at 300, receiving only 100 shards for that milestone, where someone on 299 would have received 250 shards for their top-up, and will get the other 250 with a single level on the 4*. This does seem unfair.

My proposal for that:
People receive the retro cover for their first milestone (280), as well as 500 shards for being at level 300-305, 320-325, 340-345, 350-355, in addition to the 100 shards per milestone level.  This effectively means that they get another cover-worth of shards for a "recent" milestone, even though missing out on 80% of the shards for levels in between.

shadow2999

The biggest issue that I have is lack of a real conversation from the devs to handle this head on and actually stand infront of the community and start answering questions and handling in an open and honest way.  There is way too heat to just take it to a back room and not communicate with the rest of the class....at least that is what I would do if I were in charge...letting this fester is only going to make it worst.  And it has.  Each day of radio silence rather an active engagement is a lost opportunity.  And while it may be childish to say, I hope that shows in thier bottom line if that is what it is going to take to get them out and public.

A_Wise_Man

BlatantFix said:

2*s were handled ok for the most part. I still think it was cheap to not award the mighty tokens retroactively for level 143, but whatever, the shards were at least given retroactively correctly.

3*s - For those you changed the feeder for I get not handing out new shards if the cover was already given, after all, covers were already received there, even if it's a bit annoying it was for a different character (incidentally I'd love to hear why Daredevil and Elektra both still only feed 4* Elektra when every other instance of this got changed).

But for secondary feeders I don't understand the logic of not handing out the shards, as you've created the scenario where I would have been better off not leveling anyone for two weeks prior to this change. My level 201 Iron Man for example, has now missed 120 secondary shards for having been leveled, 55 of which I would have absolutely got as I've added at least a couple of levels to him within that time frame, only to now find myself too high level to earn a reward. In what world does that make sense?

Even worse for 4* characters, while it doesn't personally affect me, anyone just over level 300, 320, 340 etc. has been massively hit by this, as they are literally receiving less rewards than they would a few levels lower as per the examples in this thread. Offer any player the chance to take that legendary token back for the better rewards and I'm sure they'd take it, but they can't.

Someone in my alliance just unloaded a 2 year haul of command points thinking it would be beneficial. Now not only was it not beneficial, it was plain detrimental. They would have been unequivocally better off for having done so a few days later. Again, why?

To top it all off the update was made at short notice, with vague communication that included this statement:
"At the same time, for 4-Star characters that are receiving all-new rewards, we want to ensure that players receive those rewards for the level they have reached."
This was simply not true, they did not receive those rewards, they received a small fraction inconsistently applied. The fact you didn't even mention 3* secondary feeder shards not being given suggests you knew it would be unpopular. Then a member of your team openly insults players reactions on discord, which you can claim isn't official, but as far as I can tell most of my alliance gets news on there way before I do reading here.

This entire thing was a mess, and it just didn't need to be. What's worse, the way it was rolled out suggested you knew it wasn't really beneficial to anyone, but just thought no-one would kick up too much of a fuss. And are only now reacting because you misjudged that.

Offical, not official, it shouldn't matter.  In my line of work if I had *any* interaction with a customer that was related to work in any way, even if it was outside of work and on off hours....and I basically told them to stop whining....I'd be out of a job.  If you're dealing with customers in matters of business you are a representative of the company.  Off hours or no, social media or no.  You should behave as such.

A_Wise_Man

grumbLEGO said:

From what I can tell from some of these truly impressive posts and my own experience (2019 play days, shield level 155) it all boils down to something very simple. 

The communication seemed to indicate that the change in rewards would be treated like previous feeders. It was not. They could have gone so far as to change the reward and give nothing retroactively, at least that didn’t happen, but that’s small comfort because the retroactive rewards are a. Inconsistent with previous retroactive rewards and b. Just don’t make a whole lot of sense. 

Also. Is there any real reason why we need to split up shard rewards in champ levels and not just award 500 at one level and give other rewards at the other levels? You got to 500 shards (or the equivalent for lower cover tiers) at the same place you’d get a cover before anyway, why split it up?

It's a tax because it builds towards a colorless cover.  The bit I don't get about this is that this is supposed to help combat dilution by focusing on specific characters.  That's all well and good, but if you've played this game for more than a week you know you need *all* the characters just to participate in events.  Taking away resources to make pulls more focused isnt combating dilution.  It's actually making the problem worse for all but 1 character.  If I only needed 1 character that would be fine, I guess, but it would also be very very boring.  Being able to focus is fine, but what's needed are more resources, not less.  You're combating inflation by paying people less but allowing them to put more money towards one single bill.  Thanks for keeping my lights on, but I also have to pay for gas, food, clothes, rent, etc etc etc.

BigSoftieFF

shadow2999 said:

The biggest issue that I have is lack of a real conversation from the devs to handle this head on and actually stand infront of the community and start answering questions and handling in an open and honest way.  There is way too heat to just take it to a back room and not communicate with the rest of the class....at least that is what I would do if I were in charge...letting this fester is only going to make it worst.  And it has.  Each day of radio silence rather an active engagement is a lost opportunity.  And while it may be childish to say, I hope that shows in thier bottom line if that is what it is going to take to get them out and public.

It’s called obfuscation. But hey, at least they got lucky with the HP sale timing right?

MoosePrime

Two years ago, when the first 4* Champion rewards were updated to have 5* covers, we were told any future updates would credit the covers for levels that had been achieved.  This is why I (and probably many others) expected to receive the shards for the levels we had passed.

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/749081/#Comment_749081

fmftint

MoosePrime said:

Two years ago, when the first 4* Champion rewards were updated to have 5* covers, we were told any future updates would credit the covers for levels that had been achieved.  This is why I (and probably many others) expected to receive the shards for the levels we had passed.

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/749081/#Comment_749081

Except a loophole is right in there,  any new champion reward COVER, they didn't update champ reward covers that updated for shards 

Brigby said:

Hi Everyone. I spoke to the developers this morning, and they provided the following information.

1. Any future 4-Star characters that have their Champion Rewards changed to offer 5-Star covers, will also retroactively credit those covers to players that had already achieved those levels.

whitecat31

At present time. It looks to me. The shard system was designed to have people spend hero points more on a piece meal like system, playing at people's addictive behaviors.

I am sure it was not designed to reward players more as was hinted at. Simple math shows it rewards less, and to claim otherwise is disingenuous. 

This lack of shards rewarded retroactively, does not seem accidental. It feels like it was a deliberate greed filled ploy designed to have players buy shards to fill all of those voids.  

To enable this sham of a system, you slowed the game down with a constant drip drip of shard rewards with a cumbersome shard addition system.
You also destroyed bonus heroes, which had always been a huge bright spot in the game for people and math says it was more rewarding. 4% versus 5%.

Many of the feeder rewards like command points and hero points that were in place to help players catch up, were removed to install the system
This alone says this is not designed to help new players bridge the gap.
Math says it creates a wider gap.

Also, there is this horrible caveat that unless a new 4 star is an immediate feeder to a 5 star, it makes it a horrible idea to champ that new 4 star, because we now know your new retroactive compensation system is punitive.
But you guys knew that last caveat, because that was why full compensation was given to players in the past. 

This system of being more beneficial to the players is a lie.
This system makes the game less enjoyable and more cumbersome. 

The implementation of this system showed a systematic approach to take and reduce what is being given to the players.
This system has created a more united backlash amongst the player base than I have ever seen, and I have over 2000 days played.
It hurts and betrays the veterans and fundamentally breaks the promise given in November of 2017 
"Any future 4-Star characters that have their Champion Rewards changed to offer 5-Star covers, will also retroactively credit those covers to players that had already achieved those levels."
https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/749081#Comment_749081
It increases the gap between new and old players.
It stinks of a short term cash grab instead of something that lays a foundation of long term benevolence. 

The rockett

HoundofShadow said:

I find it amusing that players like to fantasise that devs will be generous with rewards, and yet, they are aware, and they have always repeated in the forum that the devs has always being stingy with rewards.
However, this doesn't stop them from expecting the devs to fulfil their fantasies.

In the first place, don't you guys find that something is amissed when they decided to push out 9 4* feeders and 28 new 3* feeders simulataneously?

Between the second last update and the latest update, it's a fact that the full information about the retroactive rewards was not posted yet. Yet, players decided to jump the gun and assumed that things will be done the good old way.  You guys need to take responsibility for your actions and your choices for jumping the gun and for assuming. I've seen this happening so many times over the last two years, and yet, you guys have never apologised to the devs for jumping to conclusions and assuming that things will be done according to your fantasy.


Some of the biggest mistakes made by the team were not defining the scope of "retroactive rewards" and posting how retroactive rewards work <10 hours before the update goes live.

The players are at fault for jumping the gun before full information is out and for assuming that you will be flooded with over 100 Mighty Tokens and tons of 4*/5* covers and shards.

In the future, the devs really need to define the definitions of words. In this case, the players have defined "retroactive rewards" as Mighty Tokens, 5* shards, 5* covers, 4* shards, 4* covers, double dipping and hell, even triple dipping, and whatever. This has happened so many times, and I can pull up cases after cases for your references.

Also, the team need to put this disclosure at the top of every post when they decide to be a little nicer: "Past goodwill/generosity is not indicative of future goodwill/generosity." The team need to understand this cold hard truth, players in here don't see you as humans. They see you as only rewards machine. They don't care whatever happened to you in your and they have said that it's not their problems if you guys can't hit your KPIs. They have clearly defined the relationship between you and them.

The players need to stop assuming things and expecting the devs to fulfil your fantasies. You guys are adults. If you want to assume things, you need to take responsibility for your own actions when things didn't happen the way you expected. Ask and verify. If you can't get an answer, then you need to decide what to do next. You either wait or make educated guesses. 

Excuse me?  

2 years ago the Demi/D3 made the choice to update the rewards like they did. This was NOT a player mandate. This was driven BY Demi/D3 to the point they followed this road map for 2 years and 20-4*->5* champ updates.  This was not a one time thing, this was THEIR standard operating procedure, not ours.  

They decided to make an updated post less than 12 hours before this update that when live and did not even come out and say what was truly happening. I gave an example of what this meant to my roster with the time and energy it took to get here.  

THEY decided to make this unclear, not us.  
WE asked for more communication, didn’t get it. 

This is not on the players head, this is on Demi/D3 heads.  

nycjonny

I'm just going to reiterate what others have said elsewhere. Don't engage with people who are just here for attention and are actively trying to derail real discussions. It is a waste of your valuable energy. 

HoundofShadow

The only group of players who have legitimate cases are:

1) players with 370 Hulkbuster and the likes receiving 2 covers instead of 6 covers
2) 4* Secondary shards

The rest such as expecting 100 Mighty Tokens, triple dipping and whatever is simply ridiculous.

Bloodhades

Hi, a nice update, but I've not gotten any shards at all. Gotten my 5* covers though. 

The rockett

HoundofShadow said:

The only group of players who have legitimate cases are:

1) players with 370 Hulkbuster and the likes receiving 2 covers instead of 6 covers
2) 4* Secondary shards

The rest such as expecting 100 Mighty Tokens, triple dipping and whatever is simply ridiculous.

Ok, see I agree with you. They have never gave out tokens and honesty I was not expecting that.  What I would except is the shards/covers I am/we are missing.  I know some players want the tokens but that is really unrealistic.  I just want the normal champ rewards that they have done in the past, the covers that we will never be able to recover from. 

fight4thedream

**Mod note: Please keep this thread on topic. Removed a couple of posts and issuing a warning on flame baiting.

ThaRoadWarrior

I don’t know, I don’t think it was that unreasonable to expect to see the Mighty Tokens. Champion Rewards are updated almost never, and when they are, it has historically just been to replace LTs with fixed cover drops. And just as historically, players who were past those adjusted levels got 100% of the newly added items, which classically took the form of covers. To see that you got one of every new thing for the past 2 years and expect this new batch of new things to follow the same pattern isn’t a wild leap in my opinion.

pheregas

We are at 10 pages of comments. Most are well structured and reasonable commentaries that reflect the current in-game mood and the failure of the shard rollout/updated reward system.

@IceIX It’s been almost two days. Are dev meetings happening? Are remedies being discussed? Is there a timetable to any of this?

I’m not trying to fan flames, but this is a ticking clock situation. The player dissatisfaction is real and many of the players engagements are lowering dramatically.

This is not the sort of thing that should take weeks to fix, but days or hours. 

At least please chime in with an update to let us know we are being heard and if there are any updates on discussions so we may give further input and ideas.

spidyjedi84

And to further Pheregas's point, the worst thing you can do in a crisis this bad, is exactly what IceIX and Brigby are doing and remaining radio silent. Not addressing the issue in any capacity. This is horrible PR practices. The mobs not going to go anywhere, and only going to get worse the longer it's quiet.

Cheetah1982

The mob may actually move on...to a new game

Vhailorx

All of the white knights (and at least one dev) keep suggesting that players are wrong to be upset and that, since all of these rewards are just free stuff given purely because of the generosity of d3/demi, should just be happy with whatever we get.

I fundamentally disagree with that framing of the issue. Retroactive champ rewards were NOT an act of "generosity" by demi, no more than daily resupply, or +7 bonus cp for a stark purchase are "generosity."

All of these are business strategies used to incentivize particular behaviours by players or to prevent foreseeable problems from developing.

Daily resupply is obviously meant to promote daily play.

bonus alliance cp are meant to incentivize larger purchases as well as collective purchases and alliance membership

Retroactive rewards were meant to keep players building out their rosters without concern that they would be facing an unknown opportunity cost by foregoing access to later rewards. (The original system may not have been the only way to accomplish this goal, but it DID accomplish this goal, and had the further benefit of being pretty easy to administer.)

All of these practices are the "carrot" side of a carrot-and-stick approach to keeping players invested (gameplay elements like expiring covers, roster slot costs, time stores, essential nodes, and healthpacks are the "stick" side).

So retroactive rewards served a useful purpose for demi/d3, and made players happy. Furthermore, it doesn't seem to have been a strong disincentive from purchasing because the people who benefited most from the system are also the game's biggest spenders.

By contrast, the new system pisses of large portions of the player base, AND strongly dis-incentivizes players from building their 4* roster aggressively (as many have noticed, the only smart play now is to freeze all progress on every non-meta., non-feeder 4*. If you aren't worthy or bishop or a feeder, then the only state I want to see a 4* is parked at level 209 saving every cover. We are back to softcapping. And if a 6 star tier is ever introduced, why would any player focus on building up their 5* roster beyond 450 until the feeder question is answered. It's just a terrible outcome for just about everyone.

Let's just all dispense with the moralizing here. Players aren't greedy, entitled whiners who want things they don't deserve. D3/Demi aren't benevolent philanthropists OR evil megacorps engaged in fraud. This is just a MTX/freemium game. That means it's a constantly transactional relationship between players who want quality entertainment and companies that want to be profitable. The recent string of changes have reached a breaking point, and the game is apparently no longer offering quality entertainment that is worth the new cost for some portion of players. Demi/d3 aren't obligated to make any additional changes, but neither are players obligated to feel satisfied with whatever demi/d3 set as the ground rules.