Tapping.....

Sm0keyJ0e

Daredevil217 said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

You people that are trying to defend tapping as a legitimate way to win the best rewards are delusional and/or simply kidding yourselves or trolling. Not only have the devs come out and said it's not intended gameplay (and have actually tested removing it), the tappers themselves have admitted it's no good! One of the most notorious tappers posted here on the forums how his wrist and fingers ached, he become grumpy and irritable, and basically what an awful experience it was. He also said he'd never do it again but continues to do so every single event.

They need to be saved from themselves. Blood clots are real!!!

I’m a psychologist and one of the golden rules of therapy is you cannot work harder than your clients. People have to want to change. You think you’re saving him but really the game isn’t the problem. It’s a character structure issue. Similar to how adult children of alcoholics see alcohol as inherently evil and the “problem”. The alcohol isn’t the problem. It’s the addictive character structure of the person. So trust me when I say that you aren’t saving anyone from themselves.

So then you'd also certainly understand you don't surround a recovering alcoholic with liquor. If there are rules in place to prevent this behavior, they won't be able to engage in it.

Daredevil217

CharlieCroker said:

I think someone nailed it in the last tapping thread and it's at least been alluded to in this thread.  

If I as a random player know that a number of players in my bracket are tapping and unless I'm also willing to sacrifice hours of my life to compete, what chance do i have of achieving good placement and is there any point in my even trying.  This leads to gradual disillusionment and can turn even the most dedicated players away from the game.  Meanwhile the tappers are doing NOTHING for the devs/publishers bottom line, as they generally tap nodes that don't need healthpacks.

In my current 3.9 bracket I have at least 3 players who have tapped out 1000+ points so far, a couple of more who have done some tapping, and two mega whales who somehow are holding onto t5 without (afaik) tapping.  If I'd know this beforehand I wouldn't have bothered trying to compete (possibly for t10) and would've played casually instead of on a schedule.  And it's not just limited to CL9, I've seen worse in CL7 albeit both times in release events.

This is absolutely fair. Though nothing will change whether the developers give you a timeline or not. You could have played casually this event knowing tapping was a thing. You chose not to. Say the developers say “the next test will be during our next release event”.... I mean you could play casually until then, but really you could do that now. So I guess I’m confused as to how knowing the timeline helps. You will know well before each event if tapping is allowed or not. Plenty of time to choose your strategy accordingly. 

Daredevil217

Sm0keyJ0e said:

Daredevil217 said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

You people that are trying to defend tapping as a legitimate way to win the best rewards are delusional and/or simply kidding yourselves or trolling. Not only have the devs come out and said it's not intended gameplay (and have actually tested removing it), the tappers themselves have admitted it's no good! One of the most notorious tappers posted here on the forums how his wrist and fingers ached, he become grumpy and irritable, and basically what an awful experience it was. He also said he'd never do it again but continues to do so every single event.

They need to be saved from themselves. Blood clots are real!!!

I’m a psychologist and one of the golden rules of therapy is you cannot work harder than your clients. People have to want to change. You think you’re saving him but really the game isn’t the problem. It’s a character structure issue. Similar to how adult children of alcoholics see alcohol as inherently evil and the “problem”. The alcohol isn’t the problem. It’s the addictive character structure of the person. So trust me when I say that you aren’t saving anyone from themselves.

So then you'd also certainly understand you don't surround a recovering alcoholic with liquor. If there are rules in place to prevent this behavior, they won't be able to engage in it.

I’m not taking responsibility for another person’s sobriety. I can keep all the liquor away from someone but if they really want it they’ll go to a liquor store. Ultimately the onus is on each individual to make changes they deem healthy for themselves. Prohibition is not the answer.  

Sm0keyJ0e

Daredevil217 said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

So then you'd also certainly understand you don't surround a recovering alcoholic with liquor. If there are rules in place to prevent this behavior, they won't be able to engage in it.

I’m not taking responsibility for your sobriety. I can keep all the liquor away from you but if you really want it you’ll go to a liquor store. Ultimately the onus is on you to make changes you deem healthy for yourself. Prohibition is not the answer.  

I like how you've conveniently turned this into second-person as if I have the issue. 

Just disable tapping, please. It's stupid and unhealthy.

broll

Borstock said:

CharlieCroker said:

I think someone nailed it in the last tapping thread and it's at least been alluded to in this thread.  

If I as a random player know that a number of players in my bracket are tapping and unless I'm also willing to sacrifice hours of my life to compete, what chance do i have of achieving good placement and is there any point in my even trying.  This leads to gradual disillusionment and can turn even the most dedicated players away from the game.  Meanwhile the tappers are doing NOTHING for the devs/publishers bottom line, as they generally tap nodes that don't need healthpacks.

In my current 3.9 bracket I have at least 3 players who have tapped out 1000+ points so far, a couple of more who have done some tapping, and two mega whales who somehow are holding onto t5 without (afaik) tapping.  If I'd know this beforehand I wouldn't have bothered trying to compete (possibly for t10) and would've played casually instead of on a schedule.  And it's not just limited to CL9, I've seen worse in CL7 albeit both times in release events.

You act like t50 rewards are a pittance. I've built my roster with t50 rewards and have almost every 4* champed. I rarely ever t10 anything in this game. I can count the number of times I've finished t10 in PvE on one hand.

I still say this is a "problem" that affects about 5 people per bracket, each slice.

I both agree and disagree at the same time.

I agree because I'm in the same boat.  Can count on one hand the number of T10s, I have 86% 4*s champed in a little over 2 years on just T20/T50 rewards. 

I disagree because the jump from T10 from T20 is huge with 4* vs 3* covers.  I'd be curious to see how much time it cut off my progression if I was handed T10 even after event.  

broll

redacted

Dartmaster01

What's funny to me is, all these people saying tappers are taking their top 10 rewards when most (not all) of the people I see tapping are the one's that would be top 10 anyway. If you weren't a top 10 player before tapping, you're probably not going to be one after either.

CharlieCroker

Borstock said:

CharlieCroker said:

I think someone nailed it in the last tapping thread and it's at least been alluded to in this thread.  

If I as a random player know that a number of players in my bracket are tapping and unless I'm also willing to sacrifice hours of my life to compete, what chance do i have of achieving good placement and is there any point in my even trying.  This leads to gradual disillusionment and can turn even the most dedicated players away from the game.  Meanwhile the tappers are doing NOTHING for the devs/publishers bottom line, as they generally tap nodes that don't need healthpacks.

In my current 3.9 bracket I have at least 3 players who have tapped out 1000+ points so far, a couple of more who have done some tapping, and two mega whales who somehow are holding onto t5 without (afaik) tapping.  If I'd know this beforehand I wouldn't have bothered trying to compete (possibly for t10) and would've played casually instead of on a schedule.  And it's not just limited to CL9, I've seen worse in CL7 albeit both times in release events.

You act like t50 rewards are a pittance. I've built my roster with t50 rewards and have almost every 4* champed. I rarely ever t10 anything in this game. I can count the number of times I've finished t10 in PvE on one hand.

I still say this is a "problem" that affects about 5 people per bracket, each slice.

If you like I can PM you a screenshot of my bracket (3.9.1).  I'd say that excluding the 5 tappers there are 15-20 people affected.  And the same applied for a 3.7 last event.

And like you I built up my roster generally with t20-50 placements.  And then I progressed to 5* land, and the best way to build my roster up more is LT's and cp (and to a lesser extent covers).  And as well as overall rewards, tappers are guaranteeing themselves the 3/5cp for t10 in each sub and making it harder to get for others.

@Daredevil217, I do appreciate your point, but allowing tapping increases the randomness.  Sometimes you get lucky and get a bracket without tappers (later flips as a rule) and sometimes you get half a dozen.  And you won't know until it's too late.

Raud

Tappers are like a cheaters, some players can play against them with no problem and some says that is no fun.

broll

Raud said:

Tappers are like a cheaters, some players can play against them with no problem and some says that is no fun.

If tapping is cheating, then battle chats are also cheating.  Both are working within the rules of the game with 0 exploits or hacks but leveraging clever, strategies to get better rewards in a way the devs probably didn't intend.

Edit: For the record the point of of this is NOT that I think BCs are cheating, but that I don't think tapping is either.

PenniesForEveryone

Dartmaster01 said:

What's funny to me is, all these people saying tappers are taking their top 10 rewards when most (not all) of the people I see tapping are the one's that would be top 10 anyway. If you weren't a top 10 player before tapping, you're probably not going to be one after either.

This is a cop-out.  In events where I have time to compete I can T10, but with tapping I have no shot at T10 at all, so I don't even try. I don't even play in the same slice now because the slice doesn't really matter much if I'm just playing casually anyway.

Bowgentle

You guys are lucky if you find brackets without tappers.

2.9 has the. Same. People. In. T5. Every event. Without fail.
It's the only slice that works for me, so I know before entering that I won't make t5.

All of those people have MASSIVE 5s, 550s in some cases.
Still, they tap.
Every.
Sub.

The worst offender tapped for 2000 points in TAT.
1000 of those came from sub 1.

And that is every PVE in 2.9.

Raud

broll said:

Raud said:

Tappers are like a cheaters, some players can play against them with no problem and some says that is no fun.

If tapping is cheating, then battle chats are also cheating.  Both are working within the rules of the game with 0 exploits or hacks but leveraging clever, strategies to get better rewards in a way the devs probably didn't intend.

Edit: For the record the point of of this is NOT that I think BCs are cheating, but that I don't think tapping is either.

Where i say that tapping is cheating? Are dev fighting against battle chats?

PenniesForEveryone

Daiches said:

Dogface said:

There's a lot of talk about tapping and that it isn't what the devs intended. I can also argue that the way it is now where how fast you reach a number of points decides your placement isn't what the devs intend. 
If they wanted a speed based game, then why isnt there a timer, like in Candy Crush and the like? Because it's a game of skill, where you carefully pick your matches either going for your own colors or denying the enemies' colors. 
Right now people are meticulously timing clears, steamrolling nodes, making certain they have the best internet connection, turning off animations all because of speed. This is not a speedrun, or it shouldn't be at least.

Dude. Just because the timer isn't an actual stopwatch doesn't mean there isn't a timer. The timer is right there, regenerating points.

While you are correct, I'm not convinced that the devs would agree.  Based on some of the PvE tests that we saw and some of the comments they made while going through that testing seem to indicate that the PvE mode has traditionally be a way for newer players to get rewarded for time spent playing.

For example - that event where points were fixed and they didn't realize there would be tons of ties.  And then were later afraid of having points for all nodes drop to zero for fear of ties.  The vast majority of the player base doesn't get anywhere close to 7 clears, let alone 4 on open and 3 at close - and certainly not tapping above and beyond that.  So the tapping problem is pretty limited to the upper echelon of play.  I feel like the dev thinking on PvE has always been "the more you play the better your rewards and placement......up until this maximum of 7 clears - and if multiple people put forth the same effort the player that does it fastest wins."  The speed was a secondary tie breaker to effort.  They had no idea people would try to overcome that barrier by absurd amounts of tapping though.

So while I'm confident that tapping was never the intent, and think the reason we haven't seen a permanent fix yet is because they are hesitant to make it entirely a speed based game as well.

Daredevil217

Sm0keyJ0e said:

Daredevil217 said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

So then you'd also certainly understand you don't surround a recovering alcoholic with liquor. If there are rules in place to prevent this behavior, they won't be able to engage in it.

I’m not taking responsibility for your sobriety. I can keep all the liquor away from you but if you really want it you’ll go to a liquor store. Ultimately the onus is on you to make changes you deem healthy for yourself. Prohibition is not the answer.  

I like how you've conveniently turned this into second-person as if I have the issue. 

Just disable tapping, please. It's stupid and unhealthy.

C’mon now. You know I didn’t mean you specifically or think you specifically have a drinking problem or a tapping problem. That was a general “you” meaning anyone. Let’s not turn this into that please. I’ll edit my post so as not to confuse anyone else so we can discuss the main point I was making. 

You started your response to me with “you’d also certainly understand that...”

Which I don’t and explained why. Since I’ve addressed the perceived slight by explaining and editing, feel free to respond to the actual point I was making. If you want. If not that’s fine too. 

Phumade

PenniesForEveryone said:

\They had no idea people would try to overcome that barrier by absurd amounts of tapping though.

So while I'm confident that tapping was never the intent, and think the reason we haven't seen a permanent fix yet is because they are hesitant to make it entirely a speed based game as well.

Its power creep that enables this.  The math was always easy to game out and debates on clearing order and if tapping was possible were frequent discussion points even back in the days of fistbuster..  What wasn't predicted was that power creep would keep escalating against a  static enemy composition.

you see this in the oldest pve events.  They are most tap friendly and accessible to even mid tier rosters with just 4*.  Modern events are much harder to tap efficiently unless you've grown your roster and resources to endure that kind of sustained play and pace.

While there are math tricks to try and eliminate tapping,  ultimately better math tricks  and infinite char power creep will reveal more flaws in their system and new and novel solutions will be designed to ensure placements.

Ultimately,  they just need to go back and rebalance events in light of what modern rosters can actually do.

Sm0keyJ0e

Daredevil217 said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

Daredevil217 said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

So then you'd also certainly understand you don't surround a recovering alcoholic with liquor. If there are rules in place to prevent this behavior, they won't be able to engage in it.

I’m not taking responsibility for your sobriety. I can keep all the liquor away from you but if you really want it you’ll go to a liquor store. Ultimately the onus is on you to make changes you deem healthy for yourself. Prohibition is not the answer.  

I like how you've conveniently turned this into second-person as if I have the issue. 

Just disable tapping, please. It's stupid and unhealthy.

C’mon now. You know I didn’t mean you specifically or think you specifically have a drinking problem or a tapping problem. That was a general “you” meaning anyone. Let’s not turn this into that please. I’ll edit my post so as not to confuse anyone else so we can discuss the main point I was making. 

You started your response to me with “you’d also certainly understand that...”

Which I don’t and explained why. Since I’ve addressed the perceived slight by explaining and editing, feel free to respond to the actual point I was making. If you want. If not that’s fine too. 

It's odd that we're debating anything at all since we both seem to think that tapping is not good for the game. So let's leave it at that.

broll

Raud said:

broll said:

Raud said:

Tappers are like a cheaters, some players can play against them with no problem and some says that is no fun.

If tapping is cheating, then battle chats are also cheating.  Both are working within the rules of the game with 0 exploits or hacks but leveraging clever, strategies to get better rewards in a way the devs probably didn't intend.

Edit: For the record the point of of this is NOT that I think BCs are cheating, but that I don't think tapping is either.

Where i say that tapping is cheating? Are dev fighting against battle chats?

Raud said:

Tappers are like a cheaters

Maybe I misunderstood what you mean, the English is a little broken.  Not being rude just saying your point might have been lost, feel free to clarify.

Brigby

Hi Everyone. This is a rather hot-button topic, so just for due diligence before things get out of hand, I want to give everyone a friendly reminder to please keep all comments civil and on-topic. Thank you!

ZeroKarma

Borstock said:

CharlieCroker said:

I think someone nailed it in the last tapping thread and it's at least been alluded to in this thread.  

If I as a random player know that a number of players in my bracket are tapping and unless I'm also willing to sacrifice hours of my life to compete, what chance do i have of achieving good placement and is there any point in my even trying.  This leads to gradual disillusionment and can turn even the most dedicated players away from the game.  Meanwhile the tappers are doing NOTHING for the devs/publishers bottom line, as they generally tap nodes that don't need healthpacks.

In my current 3.9 bracket I have at least 3 players who have tapped out 1000+ points so far, a couple of more who have done some tapping, and two mega whales who somehow are holding onto t5 without (afaik) tapping.  If I'd know this beforehand I wouldn't have bothered trying to compete (possibly for t10) and would've played casually instead of on a schedule.  And it's not just limited to CL9, I've seen worse in CL7 albeit both times in release events.

You act like t50 rewards are a pittance. I've built my roster with t50 rewards and have almost every 4* champed. I rarely ever t10 anything in this game. I can count the number of times I've finished t10 in PvE on one hand.

I still say this is a "problem" that affects about 5 people per bracket, each slice.

For the people at the top end of the game, T50 isn’t doing much for your roster. The top 5 spots in cl9 are Legendary Tokens that are the most valuable currency in the game. There is a significant difference.

5 people per bracket per slice is equivalent to the ENTIRE amount  of Legendary Tokens available in the entire PvE game mode, LOL. That seems a fairly significant percentage.i would value an LT more than 3 Chos. So for a cl8 reference, imagine T1-T5 only tappers getting 3 Chos and the 6th person getting nothing.