Tapping.....
Comments
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What you are asking is:Dogface said:Why should i with a lesser roster rank lower while i clear exactly the same amount of nodes? And it it costs me more effort too (at least in time).
Should a player who has been playing longer deserve more rewards than someone who is newer to the game? If so, isn't that just the rich getting richer which will never enable me to catch up?
The answer to that is:
No. They shouldn't even be competing against one another. Shield Clearance Levels were the way the developers tried to make it so. It works on some levels, not so much on other levels.
Placement prizes have been known to drive players mad. Like, seriously tinykitty crazy. I believe they should be wholly removed from PvE, but I gave up on caring about placement prizes a long time ago. Give me my tokens and ISO for whatever I placed and I'll happily go about my day.2 -
I agree to a degree with you, Dormammu. I don't really care for placement unless im near getting there. What i mean by that is this: at the moment i have two accounts, one on Steam and one mobile. The Steam one doesnt have Thor, so i chose SCL7 (also based on roster strength). Top 50 daily (and that yummy 100hp) is out of the question, and anything below t50 is pretty much the same ****. So now my goal is to get max progression and at least scrape those cp from nodes. Final placement is not important here.
On my mobile account however i have all essentials, so believing this event was high in goon nodes i chose SCL8 and since im not spending on this account, there's the extra incentive to place t50 here (which i managed first two days). If i'm placing t50 all 4 days, it's almost certain i'll end up t50, but if i'm not (but close) i will put in the extra effort. I'm close after all. But even here end placement is more a result of adding up daily placement.0 -
In a no tapping world HP boosts (all AP & All damage) would catapult players to t1/t10 spots. It was all about fastest opening grind and holding ending grind as long as possible.broll said:
Sure but the number of players that tap are statistically very very small. It’s 0-10 players per bracket? So less than 1% I’d be surprised if the % of players even aware of it are higher than 5-10%.Daiches said:
You are contradicting yourself between the first 3 lines and the last. You can't see how killing tapping would generate revenue, yet you quit mpq over it.Michaelcles said:Why would D3 prevent tapping?
No revenue in it.
In fact, it probably encourages folks to spend more to “keep up with the Joneses”.
Tapping is one of the reasons I quit MPQ. It isn’t fun to compete against tappers. You will never win without sacrificing real priorities.
Killing tapping would have kept you a player and customer.
An argument could be made that those that know about it are also likely to pay more. But the same could be said about those that participate in it.
Fact of of the matter is without access to the metrics we can’t truly say if tapping is good or bad for buisness, only speculate.
My speculation:
1. It was probably beneficial to neutral to profits until recently. The recent amount of squeaky door about it on the forums and Discord lately has caused more to become aware of it. Since then either a number of spenders have left over it or its become a growing concern that they will. Hence they are considering addressing it.
2. It’s neutral to profits or the profit from it is miniscule. The urge to change it is from addressing complaints from the community. If this has been around since day 1 it’s possible it’s been on their backlog for ages and the growing unrest about it caused them to bump up the priority.
Those HP boosts are huge. An old alliance mate would get apple gift cards from his work. Blow em on HP boosts to dominate pve. If someone can tap for free why try to compete with non tapping with HP boosts?
Of course the revenue is tiny but it's way more than free tapping.0 -
You need some help with reading comprehension. Killing tapping would probably reduce revenue.Daiches said:
You are contradicting yourself between the first 3 lines and the last. You can't see how killing tapping would generate revenue, yet you quit mpq over it.Michaelcles said:Why would D3 prevent tapping?
No revenue in it.
In fact, it probably encourages folks to spend more to “keep up with the Joneses”.
Tapping is one of the reasons I quit MPQ. It isn’t fun to compete against tappers. You will never win without sacrificing real priorities.
Killing tapping would have kept you a player and customer.-1 -
The solution is to have the top players get the same prize. If the top 10aesthetocyst said:broll said:
Excuse my ignorance then. I've been pretty regular here for almost two years and it seems like up until recently it was never complained about. Time slices I've seen regularly complained about over the time I've been here.aesthetocyst said:
Tapping predates slices. Seriously. The first incidents of tapping were discussed openly in the game's first months of life.broll said:I just hope they work towards fixing the time slice injustice that's been around a lot longer!
If you mean play scheduled around arbitrary end points, then yeah, they were both birthed from the same format, at the same time.
Yeah, scheduled play has been a thing, will always be a thing, and no matter how much they alleviate the burden*, the arbitrariness of the end times will always have a limiting effect on some player's potential. It's a perennial problem that pretty much stays the same. It's "fair" in theory, in that it applied to everyone, but in practice it varies a lot from player to player.
Tapping is quite different. It's a possibility that's always there, anytime they have a repeatable node with a minimum value, but as the game has grown and expanded, design decision after design decision and even character releases have all served to enable tapping. Tapping has become more and more feasible and more and more effective. If it's seen as a problem, then it's a growing problem.
I wrote once that if people wanted change in regards to tapping, then they should work to make it a mainstream topic. Spread the word about how it's done. Make it a public topic. Engage in tapping themselves. As changes to the game enabled tapping, it was bound to happen anyway!
Some people say eh, it's only a few players here and there. But every player tapping their way to higher placement materially affects multiple other players in the bracket. And distorts scoring and placement expectations for everyone in the bracket. And pressures other competitive players to go there. And they already have enough pressures from this game
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* And they have done a lot to lighten the load, from reducing the number of play sessions the format suggests, to reducing then eliminating roster scaling and then allowing players to pick the scaling, to continue to expand character's power range allowing players o build rosters that can play faster and faster. PvE has gone from requiring up to 4-5hrs a day(!!!!) to play optimally, down to as little as less than an hour a day for a developed roster.
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If there is only 1-10 tappers in a bracket then they need to change the rewards so the top 15 get the same reward. That way people that don't tap can strive to get a top reward, and the tappers can keep playing for top placement.0
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And then there will be 15 tappers, and then you change it again, and there will be twenty..Electrovirus said:If there is only 1-10 tappers in a bracket then they need to change the rewards so the top 15 get the same reward. That way people that don't tap can strive to get a top reward, and the tappers can keep playing for top placement.
There used to be one or two tappers per bracket. Then they introduced scl 9 with LTs for T5. Now there's 5-10 per bracket. You seeing the correlation between your proposal and what already happened?1 -
Wow tapping was insane last sub with the 3pt hard node being a bunch of easy goons. Many hours before sub end I saw t10 scores all going up in increments of 3.
What is the point of roster progression if you can still get beaten out by people who simply have more time? Advancing your roster should result in some sort of benefit, no? Isn't that the point of an RPG format? Several people seem to be ok with "well if they put in the time, they deserve those rewards"--but what other competition anywhere in the world plays out like that? Most sports and competitive games rely on some skill or mechanic other than "I have the most time to invest, therefore I win". That is what tapping is.6 -
First of all this isn’t a sport lol. Second, the analogy has been used before of a competitive sales team all vying for a promotion. One employee works extra hard over his lunch break everyday, after hours, etc. getting measly two dollar sale after two dollar sale. In the end the EFFORT he puts in gets him the promotion because he outsold his competitions. Turns out all those sales added up and he made the company more money. Sure he may not be as efficient as employee B, but his willingness to put in the effort despite lack of skill made the company more money. This isn’t unheard of.Sm0keyJ0e said:Wow tapping was insane last sub with the 3pt hard node being a bunch of easy goons. Many hours before sub end I saw t10 scores all going up in increments of 3.
What is the point of roster progression if you can still get beaten out by people who simply have more time? Advancing your roster should result in some sort of benefit, no? Isn't that the point of an RPG format? Several people seem to be ok with "well if they put in the time, they deserve those rewards"--but what other competition anywhere in the world plays out like that? Most sports and competitive games rely on some skill or mechanic other than "I have the most time to invest, therefore I win". That is what tapping is.2 -
Wow... just wow. I don't even know where to start with this analogy. This game is MUCH closer to a sport than it is to real-world office politics. Can't go anywhere with this one.Daredevil217 said:
First of all this isn’t a sport lol. Second, the analogy has been used before of a competitive sales team all vying for a promotion. One employee works extra hard over his lunch break everyday, after hours, etc. getting measly two dollar sale after two dollar sale. In the end the EFFORT he puts in gets him the promotion because he outsold his competitions. Turns out all those sales added up and he made the company more money. Sure he may not be as efficient as employee B, but his willingness to put in the effort despite lack of skill made the company more money. This isn’t unheard of.Sm0keyJ0e said:Wow tapping was insane last sub with the 3pt hard node being a bunch of easy goons. Many hours before sub end I saw t10 scores all going up in increments of 3.
What is the point of roster progression if you can still get beaten out by people who simply have more time? Advancing your roster should result in some sort of benefit, no? Isn't that the point of an RPG format? Several people seem to be ok with "well if they put in the time, they deserve those rewards"--but what other competition anywhere in the world plays out like that? Most sports and competitive games rely on some skill or mechanic other than "I have the most time to invest, therefore I win". That is what tapping is.0 -
Nothing to do with politics. You wanted an example of a competition where effort was rewarded. I gave you an example. These types of “bonus goes to the most sales” things happen all the time. And it has nothing to do with politics lol. Sorry you can’t go anywhere with it.Sm0keyJ0e said:
Wow... just wow. I don't even know where to start with this analogy. This game is MUCH closer to a sport than it is to real-world office politics. Can't go anywhere with this one.Daredevil217 said:
First of all this isn’t a sport lol. Second, the analogy has been used before of a competitive sales team all vying for a promotion. One employee works extra hard over his lunch break everyday, after hours, etc. getting measly two dollar sale after two dollar sale. In the end the EFFORT he puts in gets him the promotion because he outsold his competitions. Turns out all those sales added up and he made the company more money. Sure he may not be as efficient as employee B, but his willingness to put in the effort despite lack of skill made the company more money. This isn’t unheard of.Sm0keyJ0e said:Wow tapping was insane last sub with the 3pt hard node being a bunch of easy goons. Many hours before sub end I saw t10 scores all going up in increments of 3.
What is the point of roster progression if you can still get beaten out by people who simply have more time? Advancing your roster should result in some sort of benefit, no? Isn't that the point of an RPG format? Several people seem to be ok with "well if they put in the time, they deserve those rewards"--but what other competition anywhere in the world plays out like that? Most sports and competitive games rely on some skill or mechanic other than "I have the most time to invest, therefore I win". That is what tapping is.2 -
You people that are trying to defend tapping as a legitimate way to win the best rewards are delusional and/or simply kidding yourselves or trolling. Not only have the devs come out and said it's not intended gameplay (and have actually tested removing it), the tappers themselves have admitted it's no good! One of the most notorious tappers posted here on the forums how his wrist and fingers ached, he become grumpy and irritable, and basically what an awful experience it was. He also said he'd never do it again but continues to do so every single event.
They need to be saved from themselves. Blood clots are real!!!4 -
There's a lot of talk about tapping and that it isn't what the devs intended. I can also argue that the way it is now where how fast you reach a number of points decides your placement isn't what the devs intend.
If they wanted a speed based game, then why isnt there a timer, like in Candy Crush and the like? Because it's a game of skill, where you carefully pick your matches either going for your own colors or denying the enemies' colors.
Right now people are meticulously timing clears, steamrolling nodes, making certain they have the best internet connection, turning off animations all because of speed. This is not a speedrun, or it shouldn't be at least.
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Dude. Just because the timer isn't an actual stopwatch doesn't mean there isn't a timer. The timer is right there, regenerating points.Dogface said:There's a lot of talk about tapping and that it isn't what the devs intended. I can also argue that the way it is now where how fast you reach a number of points decides your placement isn't what the devs intend.
If they wanted a speed based game, then why isnt there a timer, like in Candy Crush and the like? Because it's a game of skill, where you carefully pick your matches either going for your own colors or denying the enemies' colors.
Right now people are meticulously timing clears, steamrolling nodes, making certain they have the best internet connection, turning off animations all because of speed. This is not a speedrun, or it shouldn't be at least.2 -
You people? What do you mean YOU people!?Sm0keyJ0e said:You people that are trying to defend tapping as a legitimate way to win the best rewards are delusional and/or simply kidding yourselves or trolling. Not only have the devs come out and said it's not intended gameplay (and have actually tested removing it), the tappers themselves have admitted it's no good! One of the most notorious tappers posted here on the forums how his wrist and fingers ached, he become grumpy and irritable, and basically what an awful experience it was. He also said he'd never do it again but continues to do so every single event.
They need to be saved from themselves. Blood clots are real!!!
Joking aside I’ve gone on record saying I’ve never tapped. The effort isn’t worth the outcomes for ME. For others obviously that’s not the case. I have little sympathy for the dude with the aching hands. That’s absolutely a choice he makes and he has the option to not play or play less optimally. I’m a psychologist and one of the golden rules of therapy is you cannot work harder than your clients. People have to want to change. You think you’re saving him but really the game isn’t the problem. It’s a character structure issue. Similar to how adult children of alcoholics see alcohol as inherently evil and the “problem”. The alcohol isn’t the problem. It’s the addictive character structure of the person. So trust me when I say that you aren’t saving anyone from themselves.
I’m also aware tapping is going away and have never argued that point. I don’t think anyone has. I’m not even arguing it’s “good”. I’m arguing that at present it is the optimal way to play if you want to ensure rewards. And until that changes that will be the case. I’m not willing to put in the effort but won’t knock others who for them feel it is a worthwhile trade.5 -
I feel the same. I'm not a tapper, wouldn't recommend it to anyone, yet if people make a conscious choice to do it, who am i to say they shouldn't.2
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@Brigby has said 2 separate times tapping is not what they want.
@Demiurge_Will has said tapping is not what they want.
This has been discussed on here and Discord many times. On Discord it has been said tapping is not what they want.
Demi/D3 tested a pve to get rid of tapping.
All we want is an update of a test or the time line of the final change.
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I think someone nailed it in the last tapping thread and it's at least been alluded to in this thread.
If I as a random player know that a number of players in my bracket are tapping and unless I'm also willing to sacrifice hours of my life to compete, what chance do i have of achieving good placement and is there any point in my even trying. This leads to gradual disillusionment and can turn even the most dedicated players away from the game. Meanwhile the tappers are doing NOTHING for the devs/publishers bottom line, as they generally tap nodes that don't need healthpacks.
In my current 3.9 bracket I have at least 3 players who have tapped out 1000+ points so far, a couple of more who have done some tapping, and two mega whales who somehow are holding onto t5 without (afaik) tapping. If I'd know this beforehand I wouldn't have bothered trying to compete (possibly for t10) and would've played casually instead of on a schedule. And it's not just limited to CL9, I've seen worse in CL7 albeit both times in release events.1 -
Spot on. It was @ZeroKarma that this happened to last event.CharlieCroker said:I think someone nailed it in the last tapping thread and it's at least been alluded to in this thread.
If I as a random player know that a number of players in my bracket are tapping and unless I'm also willing to sacrifice hours of my life to compete, what chance do i have of achieving good placement and is there any point in my even trying. This leads to gradual disillusionment and can turn even the most dedicated players away from the game. Meanwhile the tappers are doing NOTHING for the devs/publishers bottom line, as they generally tap nodes that don't need healthpacks.
In my current 3.9 bracket I have at least 3 players who have tapped out 1000+ points so far, a couple of more who have done some tapping, and two mega whales who somehow are holding onto t5 without (afaik) tapping. If I'd know this beforehand I wouldn't have bothered trying to compete (possibly for t10) and would've played casually instead of on a schedule. And it's not just limited to CL9, I've seen worse in CL7 albeit both times in release events.0 -
You act like t50 rewards are a pittance. I've built my roster with t50 rewards and have almost every 4* champed. I rarely ever t10 anything in this game. I can count the number of times I've finished t10 in PvE on one hand.CharlieCroker said:I think someone nailed it in the last tapping thread and it's at least been alluded to in this thread.
If I as a random player know that a number of players in my bracket are tapping and unless I'm also willing to sacrifice hours of my life to compete, what chance do i have of achieving good placement and is there any point in my even trying. This leads to gradual disillusionment and can turn even the most dedicated players away from the game. Meanwhile the tappers are doing NOTHING for the devs/publishers bottom line, as they generally tap nodes that don't need healthpacks.
In my current 3.9 bracket I have at least 3 players who have tapped out 1000+ points so far, a couple of more who have done some tapping, and two mega whales who somehow are holding onto t5 without (afaik) tapping. If I'd know this beforehand I wouldn't have bothered trying to compete (possibly for t10) and would've played casually instead of on a schedule. And it's not just limited to CL9, I've seen worse in CL7 albeit both times in release events.
I still say this is a "problem" that affects about 5 people per bracket, each slice.
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