Tapping.....
Comments
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Absolutely. Skill is not the only thing that matters in competition. Luck matters, your roster/resources matter, and your effort also matters. The best team in any competitive sport doesn’t always win because skill isn’t the only determining factor in who comes out on top.ZeroKarma said:Daredevil217 said:
I am strongly against players wanting to save other players from themselves. If that player feels that tapping a node endlessly is a better use of their time than watching baseball or frolicking in the park, then I’m in no place to judge that. I personally have never tapped and feel it would be a waste of time, but I believe others who do tap deserve the awards for putting the time in I’m not willing to.ZeroKarma said:
So, at the end of the day, changing to a less tap-friendly setup would have saved him many, many hours. Hours that he could have spent watching spring training, and wondering if the World Series champs were going to repeat. Walking through the park enjoying the first signs of spring (unless he's in the northeast and frozen solid), or perhaps talking to the family and acknowledging their existence.
Obviously the developers wanting to save players from themselves is an entirely different animal and something I do support as they can say “this isn’t how we intended the game to be played” and make changes (which is what they’re in the process of doing). But as a player... no, I won’t knock or judge another player for how they choose to spend their time. That player you mention had the choice to do all the things you mentioned under tapping. They simply chose not to.
Can you explain why mindless repetition in a mobile game is deserving of a reward? Generally rewards are given as part of a competition for performing something that at least has some amount of skill or aptitude attached to it.
You can say that fast clears only judge a small part of playing capability, but at least it is something. Tapping rewards absolutely nothing in the way of capability, skill, roster. So, I can totally get behind @fight4thedream saying we need alternate win conditions! Make people think! But mindless repetitive play is not deserving of a reward.
If people really don't have anything to do in game for 6 hours a day, bring back the 20 iso rewards for tapping the prologue.
Tapping is about effort. Those willing to put it in are going to be in a better position to win just as are those more skilled, those luckier, those with better rosters, those who join optimally, etc. Tapping is an option the game makes available to everyone. So you either couldn’t (because of life demands) or choose not to play optimally. Someone else did, put the effort in, and got the rewards they deserved (scored more points which is what determines placement).
I hope that adequately addressed your question.
But that wasn’t even the point of my OP. It was more about the judgment. You use the term “mindless repetitive grind”, but that pretty much describes the whole game. Someone could judge you and I for even playing it at all. For spending as much time and money as you do. For neglecting your poor family (without even knowing if you have a family or like baseball to use your concern). Heck, us responding to one another on message board about a match 3 game could be judged as a stupid waste of time. Do you see my point? Where do you draw the line on what’s a waste of time or unhealthy. It’s not on you or I to judge how another player chooses to spend their time. Ultimately it’s up the that player.
I have far more respect for people who say, I hate tapping because I’m not willing to put in effort others are to get rewards and I hope the developers change it. That’s honest. And that’s really what it’s about. I respect posts talking about “skill”, “they have no life” and “will someone please think of the children” much much less. Because when it’s all said and done it’s really all about how you are affected. It’s about the rewards that’s you want but didn’t get.11 -
unless they are botting i see no problem with tappers.
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Why would D3 prevent tapping?
No revenue in it.
In fact, it probably encourages folks to spend more to “keep up with the Joneses”.
Tapping is one of the reasons I quit MPQ. It isn’t fun to compete against tappers. You will never win without sacrificing real priorities.1 -
No one does, except, like, 3 people per slice.killerkoala said:unless they are botting i see no problem with tappers.1 -
You are contradicting yourself between the first 3 lines and the last. You can't see how killing tapping would generate revenue, yet you quit mpq over it.Michaelcles said:Why would D3 prevent tapping?
No revenue in it.
In fact, it probably encourages folks to spend more to “keep up with the Joneses”.
Tapping is one of the reasons I quit MPQ. It isn’t fun to compete against tappers. You will never win without sacrificing real priorities.
Killing tapping would have kept you a player and customer.
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Sure but the number of players that tap are statistically very very small. It’s 0-10 players per bracket? So less than 1% I’d be surprised if the % of players even aware of it are higher than 5-10%.Daiches said:
You are contradicting yourself between the first 3 lines and the last. You can't see how killing tapping would generate revenue, yet you quit mpq over it.Michaelcles said:Why would D3 prevent tapping?
No revenue in it.
In fact, it probably encourages folks to spend more to “keep up with the Joneses”.
Tapping is one of the reasons I quit MPQ. It isn’t fun to compete against tappers. You will never win without sacrificing real priorities.
Killing tapping would have kept you a player and customer.
An argument could be made that those that know about it are also likely to pay more. But the same could be said about those that participate in it.
Fact of of the matter is without access to the metrics we can’t truly say if tapping is good or bad for buisness, only speculate.
My speculation:
1. It was probably beneficial to neutral to profits until recently. The recent amount of squeaky door about it on the forums and Discord lately has caused more to become aware of it. Since then either a number of spenders have left over it or its become a growing concern that they will. Hence they are considering addressing it.
2. It’s neutral to profits or the profit from it is miniscule. The urge to change it is from addressing complaints from the community. If this has been around since day 1 it’s possible it’s been on their backlog for ages and the growing unrest about it caused them to bump up the priority.2 -
I just wanted to highlight this part of aesthetocyst's post, which explains that the problem has accelerated because the devs made tapping easier to pursue through the combination of SCL scaling choice and the speed of many characters in completing matches.aesthetocyst said:
_________________broll said:
Excuse my ignorance then. I've been pretty regular here for almost two years and it seems like up until recently it was never complained about. Time slices I've seen regularly complained about over the time I've been here.aesthetocyst said:
Tapping predates slices. Seriously. The first incidents of tapping were discussed openly in the game's first months of life.broll said:I just hope they work towards fixing the time slice injustice that's been around a lot longer!
If you mean play scheduled around arbitrary end points, then yeah, they were both birthed from the same format, at the same time.
* And they have done a lot to lighten the load, from reducing the number of play sessions the format suggests, to reducing then eliminating roster scaling and then allowing players to pick the scaling, to continue to expand character's power range allowing players o build rosters that can play faster and faster. PvE has gone from requiring up to 4-5hrs a day(!!!!) to play optimally, down to as little as less than an hour a day for a developed roster.
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We can't know the true revenue impact from the outside, but if tapping overcomes roster growth in terms of achieving top prizes, that's a negative for the developers. (This isn't a question, since many tappers are 4* players.) If tapping makes some people not spend because they don't have the time to devote, so they figure it doesn't matter how much they spend, that's a negative too.
If tapping makes otherwise devoted players begin to disengage because they recognize that they don't have the endless time needed to be competitive, that's not good for the game either.0 -
They are not.bluewolf said:
(This isn't a question, since many tappers are 4* players.)aesthetocyst said:
_________________broll said:
Excuse my ignorance then. I've been pretty regular here for almost two years and it seems like up until recently it was never complained about. Time slices I've seen regularly complained about over the time I've been here.aesthetocyst said:
Tapping predates slices. Seriously. The first incidents of tapping were discussed openly in the game's first months of life.broll said:I just hope they work towards fixing the time slice injustice that's been around a lot longer!
If you mean play scheduled around arbitrary end points, then yeah, they were both birthed from the same format, at the same time.
* And they have done a lot to lighten the load, from reducing the number of play sessions the format suggests, to reducing then eliminating roster scaling and then allowing players to pick the scaling, to continue to expand character's power range allowing players o build rosters that can play faster and faster. PvE has gone from requiring up to 4-5hrs a day(!!!!) to play optimally, down to as little as less than an hour a day for a developed roster.
.
The most egregious tappers are 5* players, most of them with gigantic 5s to boot.
Those are the ones tapping for T5 in CL9.
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I will never understand why 5* players tap. Theres no 5* cover to earn and your LTs are most likely going to give you a 4*. Why would you put all that effort in for the small chance of getting a 5*?0
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LTs are the only way to earn new 5* characters, more LTs = more chances at 5* characters. It's the highest and best possible reward that the game has to offer - of course people are going to put in effort to win them.Nick441234 said:I will never understand why 5* players tap. Theres no 5* cover to earn and your LTs are most likely going to give you a 4*. Why would you put all that effort in for the small chance of getting a 5*?0 -
Boredom. Competitive drive/need to win. And the small chance is all you have. Which is all you will ever have, in terms of getting the top rewards, in a game like this.Nick441234 said:I will never understand why 5* players tap. Theres no 5* cover to earn and your LTs are most likely going to give you a 4*. Why would you put all that effort in for the small chance of getting a 5*?
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Not gonna disagree that giant 5’s tap tap tap away. But a good number of 4 players tap for new releases, covers they need, etc., and pull it off.Bowgentle said:
They are not.bluewolf said:
(This isn't a question, since many tappers are 4* players.)aesthetocyst said:
_________________broll said:
Excuse my ignorance then. I've been pretty regular here for almost two years and it seems like up until recently it was never complained about. Time slices I've seen regularly complained about over the time I've been here.aesthetocyst said:
Tapping predates slices. Seriously. The first incidents of tapping were discussed openly in the game's first months of life.broll said:I just hope they work towards fixing the time slice injustice that's been around a lot longer!
If you mean play scheduled around arbitrary end points, then yeah, they were both birthed from the same format, at the same time.
* And they have done a lot to lighten the load, from reducing the number of play sessions the format suggests, to reducing then eliminating roster scaling and then allowing players to pick the scaling, to continue to expand character's power range allowing players o build rosters that can play faster and faster. PvE has gone from requiring up to 4-5hrs a day(!!!!) to play optimally, down to as little as less than an hour a day for a developed roster.
.
The most egregious tappers are 5* players, most of them with gigantic 5s to boot.
Those are the ones tapping for T5 in CL9.0 -
I get that, but enough of a reward to hit the same node hundreds of times? Day after day? I could understand a bit more if all that effort was guaranteeing you a 5*, but its not. You will most likely end up with Mr Fantastic popping out the token.PenniesForEveryone said:
LTs are the only way to earn new 5* characters, more LTs = more chances at 5* characters. It's the highest and best possible reward that the game has to offer - of course people are going to put in effort to win them.Nick441234 said:I will never understand why 5* players tap. Theres no 5* cover to earn and your LTs are most likely going to give you a 4*. Why would you put all that effort in for the small chance of getting a 5*?0 -
People that have the most problems with tapping are those that stand to lose most bc of tapping. In other words top 10. I can't imagine people being bummed losing out on missing out 3* in placement.
And bc they desire top 10 placement, the only solution is to tap themselves. And that's something a lot of people don't want to do for whatever reason.
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So you are saying that the cost/benefit ratio does not makes sense for you personally. I, and the majority of players, agree. Trying to understand why it does make sense to some is going to be very difficult from your point of view.Nick441234 said:
I get that, but enough of a reward to hit the same node hundreds of times? Day after day? I could understand a bit more if all that effort was guaranteeing you a 5*, but its not. You will most likely end up with Mr Fantastic popping out the token.PenniesForEveryone said:
LTs are the only way to earn new 5* characters, more LTs = more chances at 5* characters. It's the highest and best possible reward that the game has to offer - of course people are going to put in effort to win them.Nick441234 said:I will never understand why 5* players tap. Theres no 5* cover to earn and your LTs are most likely going to give you a 4*. Why would you put all that effort in for the small chance of getting a 5*?
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The table of 5* rewards is fixed for every player. So every LT that you open brings you closer to the next 5* pull on your table. To maximize the number of 5*s on your roster as quickly as possible requires opening as many LTs as you can - even the ones that grant 4*s.Nick441234 said:
I get that, but enough of a reward to hit the same node hundreds of times? Day after day? I could understand a bit more if all that effort was guaranteeing you a 5*, but its not. You will most likely end up with Mr Fantastic popping out the token.PenniesForEveryone said:
LTs are the only way to earn new 5* characters, more LTs = more chances at 5* characters. It's the highest and best possible reward that the game has to offer - of course people are going to put in effort to win them.Nick441234 said:I will never understand why 5* players tap. Theres no 5* cover to earn and your LTs are most likely going to give you a 4*. Why would you put all that effort in for the small chance of getting a 5*?
Think of them as champ rewards, just hidden and unpredictable. You still fight for 4* progression covers even if they will only grant ISO - because you know that progressing through that reward table will get you closer to the next CP or LT reward that you are seeking. It's all progress.
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Tapping is the same addiction or illnes like drugs.1
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Daredevil217 said:
Absolutely. Skill is not the only thing that matters in competition. Luck matters, your roster/resources matter, and your effort also matters. The best team in any competitive sport doesn’t always win because skill isn’t the only determining factor in who comes out on top.ZeroKarma said:Daredevil217 said:
I am strongly against players wanting to save other players from themselves. If that player feels that tapping a node endlessly is a better use of their time than watching baseball or frolicking in the park, then I’m in no place to judge that. I personally have never tapped and feel it would be a waste of time, but I believe others who do tap deserve the awards for putting the time in I’m not willing to.ZeroKarma said:
So, at the end of the day, changing to a less tap-friendly setup would have saved him many, many hours. Hours that he could have spent watching spring training, and wondering if the World Series champs were going to repeat. Walking through the park enjoying the first signs of spring (unless he's in the northeast and frozen solid), or perhaps talking to the family and acknowledging their existence.
Obviously the developers wanting to save players from themselves is an entirely different animal and something I do support as they can say “this isn’t how we intended the game to be played” and make changes (which is what they’re in the process of doing). But as a player... no, I won’t knock or judge another player for how they choose to spend their time. That player you mention had the choice to do all the things you mentioned under tapping. They simply chose not to.
Can you explain why mindless repetition in a mobile game is deserving of a reward? Generally rewards are given as part of a competition for performing something that at least has some amount of skill or aptitude attached to it.
You can say that fast clears only judge a small part of playing capability, but at least it is something. Tapping rewards absolutely nothing in the way of capability, skill, roster. So, I can totally get behind @fight4thedream saying we need alternate win conditions! Make people think! But mindless repetitive play is not deserving of a reward.
If people really don't have anything to do in game for 6 hours a day, bring back the 20 iso rewards for tapping the prologue.
Tapping is about effort. Those willing to put it in are going to be in a better position to win just as are those more skilled, those luckier, those with better rosters, those who join optimally, etc. Tapping is an option the game makes available to everyone. So you either couldn’t (because of life demands) or choose not to play optimally. Someone else did, put the effort in, and got the rewards they deserved (scored more points which is what determines placement).
I hope that adequately addressed your question.
But that wasn’t even the point of my OP. It was more about the judgment. You use the term “mindless repetitive grind”, but that pretty much describes the whole game. Someone could judge you and I for even playing it at all. For spending as much time and money as you do. For neglecting your poor family (without even knowing if you have a family or like baseball to use your concern). Heck, us responding to one another on message board about a match 3 game could be judged as a stupid waste of time. Do you see my point? Where do you draw the line on what’s a waste of time or unhealthy. It’s not on you or I to judge how another player chooses to spend their time. Ultimately it’s up the that player.
I have far more respect for people who say, I hate tapping because I’m not willing to put in effort others are to get rewards and I hope the developers change it. That’s honest. And that’s really what it’s about. I respect posts talking about “skill”, “they have no life” and “will someone please think of the children” much much less. Because when it’s all said and done it’s really all about how you are affected. It’s about the rewards that’s you want but didn’t get.
I will admit that you're correct. I want the opportunity to compete for rewards without spending extra hours to do so. It does affect me and several of the more vocal members of the community because we are at the top tier of the game, and I suppose arguing about rules changes that benefit us makes sense at the end of the day.
At the same time, a couple of points to disagree with. I don't really care what people do in their day unless they are friends and family. I have conversed with the person I referenced, and I would absolutely joke with him about that on LINE, as I might also pick on people who are playing the game on the toilet at work for 30 minutes....including poking fun at myself when I'm the guy doing it. This is not a save the children crusade.
Where we really don't agree is with the idea of tapping as effort, or with a problem characterizing it as mindless repetitive grind. When they ran the Rocket and Groot event with the 20 point easy nodes, I tapped like a fiend, with the express purpose of pointing out how dumb the system was. It was.......a mindless repetitive grind, and the "test" was never seen again. Is this really so much different than that? Are the first four clears a grind? Yes. Let's fix that, not make it worse.
As PvE has evolved, it has gone in one specific direction. Towards less time, and not more. I hope that it continues to trend that way. As I brought up in a previous thread, the amount of time that is needed for PvE is less now than it ever has been. That is a good thing for the game, in terms of engagement. If they could next find a way to remove the fixed start and end, that would be fantastic.
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PVE costing less time is totally dependent on the strength of your roster. As it is now, someone who clears nodes the fastest gets higher placement.
Why should i with a lesser roster rank lower while i clear exactly the same amount of nodes? And it it costs me more effort too (at least in time).0 -
Oh, it's not that i'm not improving my clears time and my roster is slowly growing stronger. But as long as champed 5* teams go as low as SCL7, there's no way to finish top 10 in PVE.
It's not something im very bummed about though. The discussion is more from a theoretical standpoint, where clearing the same amount of nodes should be rewarded the same (like in progression). That's where effort meets reward. Do just the easy nodes and you'll probably get the 3*, do 4 clears of every node and reach max progression. More effort →more reward.
Right now, i feel that max progression isn't really the max. It's two thirds. The only reason to go further now is for placement.
0
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