Please nerf 5* Gambit

Sm0keyJ0e

My opinion is his auto-AP generation is what’s broken about him. He’s a great and powerful toon without that component. Make his black do something else but as it is, generating 6ap every single turn is just lazy character design and completely unnecessary. With charged tiles out his red already generates 6ap plus deals 14k (at level 450) and only costs 7ap. That is a great power! But then throw in, Oh yeah, also passively generate 6 MORE ap... now it costs 7ap to deal 14k damage and generate 12ap. This is where he becomes broken.

And to that poncho guy, whoever he is, please come back to s5 with your baby Gambit and let’s dance.

spiderpool

Sm0keyJ0e said:

My opinion is his auto-AP generation is what’s broken about him. He’s a great and powerful toon without that component. Make his black do something else but as it is, generating 6ap every single turn is just lazy character design and completely unnecessary. With charged tiles out his red already generates 6ap plus deals 14k (at level 450) and only costs 7ap. That is a great power! But then throw in, Oh yeah, also passively generate 6 MORE ap... now it costs 7ap to deal 14k damage and generate 12ap. This is where he becomes broken.

And to that poncho guy, whoever he is, please come back to s5 with your baby Gambit and let’s dance.

This.   Call me crazy but when I have 4* winter soldier,  nova,  and 3* punisher all boosted to around lvl 370 and a team of loaner punisher, 0/0/5 lvl 89 gambit and lvl 250 unboosted spider Gwen come within inches of beating my vastly more powerful team because of near infinite power firing every turn,  that seems pretty broken to me.   Every team I see in pvp lately is lvl 89 only black gambit with any red and or purple user.

Milk Jugz

I think the best thing to do with Gambit is to change his black. The ap generation is crazy, 6 free ap EVERY turn, plus on the eventual turn you fire A&8s ANOTHER 6 free ap!!!! That is absolutely game breaking. I read all the posts here and numerous posts in other threads with people's suggestions for fixes. I think the simplest, easiest, and least impactful fix to him would be to change his black. Get rid of the ap generation, get rid of the stipulation to block other characters active abilities. Have it cost 6 black ap and generate X number of purple, red, and black charged tiles. It then feeds all his powers, both for ap collection and for his red damage. If this change is implemented then his purple and red powers are perfect as is, and he is still a very powerful character. Possibly even still the best character, but at least much more toned down.

TF1977

He’s way, way OP.

but if you want a way to cruise through pve without using health packs like you have a champed old school OML, he’s your guy. Saving me $

thedarkphoenix

If they want to nerf him, they should make it so that his the only time people can use red/purple is when he's downed, stunned or airborne.

the 0/0/5 build is what people seem to be crying about.

TF1977

Overuse him, save your health packs - he’ll get the nerf when it hurts the bottomline.

probably already is...

I've played less since I can’t beat him on the regular, it’s not fun - why spend when he’s pushing players with him out in front by a lot (even more so for the cheap 2$ for 7CP “bug”).

I’ve been playing since 3* Thor was introduced and this is by far the worst OP character.

Fix it D3

GrimSkald

Honestly, I think it's just a matter of time before the nerf him.  I just hope they don't nerf him too badly, because I feel fairly sure I'll be able to cover mine.  Ideally I'll get to play with him a bit before they do.

Seriously, he's broken.  With any other reasonable partner he's better than any team out there (including Panthos,) and with a partner with synergy he's disgusting.  Sure, you can beat him, but when the odds are that much against you, you generally go for another team. 

Compare that to Thanos - Thanos is powerful, but only really on offense. He has three things going for him - his huge health pool, his match damage, and his ability to make things domino once you fell one opponent character.  His actives are actually rather meh - his purple is neat and strategically very useful in some circumstances, but frequently goes unused.  His green has some tactical use again (stick him in front to save another character,) but often doesn't resolve unless you are careful.  Sure, when you attack him and lose a character things get awful, but when you fight 5*s, things can go south very quickly (hi, Phoenix, how are you doing?)  He's fast, which is why he's so popular, I never thought he was unbalanced.

Like many others here, I think it's the black that is the problem.  If they change the black on both the 5* and the 3* versions they will stop Gambit from steamrolling the game and stop all the silly 3* Gambatteries at the same time. 

Yes, I have a Gambattery.  Yes, I'm using it with 5* Spider-Man and Spider-Gwen.  It's gross, and I'm having fun with it, but I don't delude myself into thinking it's good for the game.  If they give us an increased sell price when they nerf him, I'll be quite content with the use I got out of him.

Dartmaster01

Am I the only one that doesn't have a problem with Gambit? I don't even have one cover for the 5* and my 3* is champed, so no gambattery either. Sure, I lost several matches against him when he was boosted but unboosted, he's no harder than any other good 5* character to beat. I take just as much damage fighting him as BP or SS. And as far the gambattery teams go, if I see one, you will get attacked to no end. Thanos eats them for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. I say, keep the snacks coming.

madsalad

He is totally OP but he's doing exactly what they want. Requiring you to heal your dudes every game. If you want to fight Gambit realize you are going to take HUGE damage. Even if you end up beating him, the only one that wins is D3.

nonnel1

After reading this thread, I’ve come to the conclusion that I still like gambit.  And my thoughts on cat memes hasn’t changed either (though someone in here doesn’t like them cause they flagged my last post proclaiming love for both gambit and cat memes)

Anon

Ragnarok, Spiderman, Sentry, X-Force....

Dayv

dr tinykittylove said:

Gambit is broken. It's such a tinykitty set of powers I cannot imagine how it got past the design stage into the live game. 

I've wondered the same thing: "how did this even make it off the whiteboard, let alone into production?"  Take away his black power completely and he'd still be a strong, usable character.

Gambit passive black: does nothing.  Solidly mid-tier design, desirable in the right team build.

Trojax2010

Dayv said:

I've wondered the same thing: "how did this even make it off the whiteboard, let alone into production?"  Take away his black power completely and he'd still be a strong, usable character.

I thought the ...previewed version... of Gambit had his black only trigger on match 4's or higher.  Can't remember if it was the player or the opponent making match 4's that triggered it, but that would surely be one way to start balancing him. Maybe they made a last minute adjustment to Gambit to make him more appealing. 

Justice Jacks

Dayv said:

I've wondered the same thing: "how did this even make it off the whiteboard, let alone into production?"  Take away his black power completely and he'd still be a strong, usable character.

Gambit passive black: does nothing.  Solidly mid-tier design, desirable in the right team build.

You can't be serious.  Without black he has the overwrite purple for 11AP and if you can protect all 4 of them (at 5 covers), they do a collective 20k damage (roughly, at 450).  His red, requires 14AP to do any damage (unless you limit yourself to partners that generate charged titles).  And does about 15k damage.  We already have a character like that and her name is Black Widow.

Her purple is 12AP and does around 12k at 450, removes 3 enemy tiles, and the AP for this power potentially decreases to 7AP.  Her red is 12AP and does about 16-28k if certain criteria are met.  Her black costs 10AP and does 14-24k depending on health and other criteria.

So if your argument that Gambit without black is solidly middle tier, I think that it's clear that isn't accurate as Black Widow has three high AP powers that actually hit harder than Gambit's does, and she has additional passive activity as well, and I don't think anyone would claim that she's a "strong, useable character."

As another data point, even with the perfect partner in BB, Gambit would be generating about 14k damage per red firing for 7AP at 450.  Spidey's red costs 7AP and does the same damage without the need to pair him with anyone.

In short, just ditching black would make Gambit largely unplayable as he'd be overshadowed by practically every other 5. 

dr tinykittylove

Justice Jacks said:

Dayv said:

I've wondered the same thing: "how did this even make it off the whiteboard, let alone into production?"  Take away his black power completely and he'd still be a strong, usable character.

Gambit passive black: does nothing.  Solidly mid-tier design, desirable in the right team build.

You can't be serious.  Without black he has the overwrite purple for 11AP and if you can protect all 4 of them (at 5 covers), they do a collective 20k damage (roughly, at 450).  His red, requires 14AP to do any damage (unless you limit yourself to partners that generate charged titles).  And does about 15k damage.  We already have a character like that and her name is Black Widow.

Her purple is 12AP and does around 12k at 450, removes 3 enemy tiles, and the AP for this power potentially decreases to 7AP.  Her red is 12AP and does about 16-28k if certain criteria are met.  Her black costs 10AP and does 14-24k depending on health and other criteria.

So if your argument that Gambit without black is solidly middle tier, I think that it's clear that isn't accurate as Black Widow has three high AP powers that actually hit harder than Gambit's does, and she has additional passive activity as well, and I don't think anyone would claim that she's a "strong, useable character."

As another data point, even with the perfect partner in BB, Gambit would be generating about 14k damage per red firing for 7AP at 450.  Spidey's red costs 7AP and does the same damage without the need to pair him with anyone.

In short, just ditching black would make Gambit largely unplayable as he'd be overshadowed by practically every other 5. 

He has the best enemy tile control in purple - 11 ap to overwrite 4 tiles and potentially do 20k dmg.

His red at 7 ap shakes the board marginally and generates 2 random ap on first cast, but subsequent casts generate 6 random ap and do 15k? dmg, and running him with any charge tile maker lets him do that right away. How is either of those powers bad?

Dayv

aesthetocyst said:

Jarvind said:

Mine's at 4/4/4. Can we wait to nerf him until I've gotten to have some fun at least?

Lucky you, a perfect distribution. Mine's at 251, likely another 5 in the lurch, another 5dupe, another 5 trapped in Classics, unfinished, after I draw another dozen reds in a row.

I've got a thrilling 1/2/1 Gambit, and I'm totally ok with him being nerfed before he gets any bigger.

3* Gambit could use a nerf, too.  His damage output is lower (purple is still huge for the tier), but his AP generation is completely intact, and his special tile overwriting is not as broad but still significant.  I've farmed retaliations with him in Lightning Rounds, and even with less than 20 champ levels on him he's the centerpiece of any number of 2*/3* mixed team builds that destroy 4* teams easily and predictably.

Dayv

But hey, let's talk mitigation.  Obviously the lockout on ally red/purple powers was meant to be a downside to balance out his massive and unconditional AP generation.  That turned out to be a huge failure.  His red and purple powers are so strong that it turns into a net benefit with the small exception that he's a terrible partner for Phoenix and maybe two other characters.

So there's two main problems with his black that I can see: it's unconditional, and the attempt to give it a downside for balance was a complete failure.

So fix it.  Make it conditional, add a real downside, or do both.

Possible conditions include:
A triggering event (if Gambit is hit for X damage, if Gambit's team makes a match 4, 
A prerequisite condition (Generates 1 purple AP for every 3 blue AP his team has, to a maximum of 3 per turn.  Generates 1 red AP for every 3 yellow AP his team has, to a maximum of 3 per turn)


Possible downsides include:
An actual hindrance to ally skills (all ally skills cost 2 AP more)
A risk to gaining too much AP (if Gambit's team has more than 30 colored AP at the start of the turn, half of the AP is destroyed and Gambit takes 200 damage for each AP destroyed in this way.)
A way to shut down AP generation (Gambit passively generates a repeater tile if one does not exist, it processes each turn and generates AP.  If this repeater is destroyed, create a four-turn countdown that prevents Gambit from creating a new repeater tile while it is on the board.)

Or a limitation:
Cap the generation with an alternate effect (if Gambit has 9 AP in either red or purple at the start of the turn, generate no AP.  Gambit deals 1000 damage to a random enemy instead)

I'm just spitballing here, but there are probably lots of ways to make this character less game-breaking.

CharlieCroker

Justice Jacks said:

Dayv said:

I've wondered the same thing: "how did this even make it off the whiteboard, let alone into production?"  Take away his black power completely and he'd still be a strong, usable character.

Gambit passive black: does nothing.  Solidly mid-tier design, desirable in the right team build.

You can't be serious.  Without black he has the overwrite purple for 11AP and if you can protect all 4 of them (at 5 covers), they do a collective 20k damage (roughly, at 450).  His red, requires 14AP to do any damage (unless you limit yourself to partners that generate charged titles).  And does about 15k damage.  We already have a character like that and her name is Black Widow.

Her purple is 12AP and does around 12k at 450, removes 3 enemy tiles, and the AP for this power potentially decreases to 7AP.  Her red is 12AP and does about 16-28k if certain criteria are met.  Her black costs 10AP and does 14-24k depending on health and other criteria.

So if your argument that Gambit without black is solidly middle tier, I think that it's clear that isn't accurate as Black Widow has three high AP powers that actually hit harder than Gambit's does, and she has additional passive activity as well, and I don't think anyone would claim that she's a "strong, useable character."

As another data point, even with the perfect partner in BB, Gambit would be generating about 14k damage per red firing for 7AP at 450.  Spidey's red costs 7AP and does the same damage without the need to pair him with anyone.

In short, just ditching black would make Gambit largely unplayable as he'd be overshadowed by practically every other 5. 

The first argument I've seen against a nerf which isn't just saying I've got him and want to exploit him and destroy anyone who doesnt over and over again.

But looking specifically at his black, as Dayv has pointed out it doesn't necessarily need to be taken away, just mitigated.  But imagine how OP it would be if we gave an equivalent AP generating passive to other 5*s with two strong actives:

Dr Strange - blue and yellow firing every 3/5 turns;
Phoenix - anyone with Gambat knows how destructive this can be;
Surfer - continuously spamming red/blue;
Widow - pick any 2/3 of her powers every 4 turns;
Doc Oc - ok maybe a step too far.

Lots of solutions have been suggested, good and otherwise.  But for me leaving him as he is is game breaking.  And whilst the next 5* may counter him, it won't do much good if I'm unable to draw covers for him either.

Tony_Foot

I have champed Gambit/DD/SMPP and have run loads of tests as my first champs in Slice 1. First with just Gambit due to the over whelming about of rubbish I had read about Gambit on his own took down my champed Panthos in 4 turns. I ran him to 600 multiple times and watched the hits come in.

I got absolutely booted back into the 200's twice as expected. I looked at the teams beating me and no one had any issues, even lost to a peggy nova team. So I then brought a second 5* to the party. I keep climbing past my float point and watch the hits come in.

I am using Gambit and DD. For all the talk of over power, very very few people are losing against me. 1 in 20. Yet there is a clear pattern of who doesn't hit me that often, Panthos. I am sure that is what have the crying it about, the current meta that people poured so much into has moved. I am losing 100% of the time to players with more than a champed Panthos. I'd be more than happy for the devs to look at my data and back that up. Against Panthos I have won 100% of the time, yet I'm still not seeing Panthos teams fail against my team because I imagine they can make sure Panther is in front for the Gambit hits.

Then I hear about the Health pack use when running against Gambit teams, well it's not like my gambit team is saving me a ton of packs. I still have to heal gambit and normally would the featured if I wasn't using a loaner. I'm not going to get away damage free against a bolt or strange either, I have been put on my knees multiple times by a Bolt team without then having Gambit. There's clearly multiple ways to bring a gambit team to it's knees, I see it in my hits but I do understand rostering those is a lot harder in 5* land, yet that's not a reason for a nerf. It didn't get bolt one or Thanos.

This game has power creep and always will, Peggy was insanely ahead of the game as was Carol when they were released. People cried blood trying to get those nerfed, but there was a bigger picture and I'm sure there is one here too.

5 black though, does get a skip from me.

dr tinykittylove

CharlieCroker said:

Justice Jacks said:

Dayv said:

I've wondered the same thing: "how did this even make it off the whiteboard, let alone into production?"  Take away his black power completely and he'd still be a strong, usable character.

Gambit passive black: does nothing.  Solidly mid-tier design, desirable in the right team build.

You can't be serious.  Without black he has the overwrite purple for 11AP and if you can protect all 4 of them (at 5 covers), they do a collective 20k damage (roughly, at 450).  His red, requires 14AP to do any damage (unless you limit yourself to partners that generate charged titles).  And does about 15k damage.  We already have a character like that and her name is Black Widow.

Her purple is 12AP and does around 12k at 450, removes 3 enemy tiles, and the AP for this power potentially decreases to 7AP.  Her red is 12AP and does about 16-28k if certain criteria are met.  Her black costs 10AP and does 14-24k depending on health and other criteria.

So if your argument that Gambit without black is solidly middle tier, I think that it's clear that isn't accurate as Black Widow has three high AP powers that actually hit harder than Gambit's does, and she has additional passive activity as well, and I don't think anyone would claim that she's a "strong, useable character."

As another data point, even with the perfect partner in BB, Gambit would be generating about 14k damage per red firing for 7AP at 450.  Spidey's red costs 7AP and does the same damage without the need to pair him with anyone.

In short, just ditching black would make Gambit largely unplayable as he'd be overshadowed by practically every other 5. 

The first argument I've seen against a nerf which isn't just saying I've got him and want to exploit him and destroy anyone who doesnt over and over again.

But looking specifically at his black, as Dayv has pointed out it doesn't necessarily need to be taken away, just mitigated.  But imagine how OP it would be if we gave an equivalent AP generating passive to other 5*s with two strong actives:

Dr Strange - blue and yellow firing every 3/5 turns;
Phoenix - anyone with Gambat knows how destructive this can be;
Surfer - continuously spamming red/blue;
Widow - pick any 2/3 of her powers every 4 turns;
Doc Oc - ok maybe a step too far.

Lots of solutions have been suggested, good and otherwise.  But for me leaving him as he is is game breaking.  And whilst the next 5* may counter him, it won't do much good if I'm unable to draw covers for him either.

In fact Doc Ock would be brilliant with self ap generation. His black is decent, blue would be good if he had a free ap gen like gambit, it's just his green is pretty useless unless you bring Carol.

Personally I like the idea someone else had - make black an active ability. Either direct ap gen like im40/vulture/Kingpin or colour changing, or a power that creates charge tiles as a side effect like 4thor stun/starlord colour change so he doesn't need to double cast red or pair with bolt.