Please nerf 5* Gambit

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Comments

  • RemoDestroyer
    RemoDestroyer Posts: 277 Mover and Shaker
    SkyFire47 said:
    entrailbucket said:

    "Sure, Gambit is too good, but don't nerf him.  Introduce a counter." -- How, pray tell, would you introduce a character that counters Gambit and isn't game breaking on his own?  Someone suggested a guy with a passive that stuns anyone who casts a power.  That slows Gambit down but doesn't really fix him, AND then they'd have to nerf that guy for being way too good, or introduce a counter to him.
    Someone who zaps away AP each turn the way 3* Hood does.   Hood wasn't game breaking by any means.  An anti battery would work against gambit and vulture.

    Lots of ways to counter someone.  A 5* juggernaut immune to passive attacks would directly counter Thanos, panther, strange, bolt while at the same time give value to direct damage dealers to Cap, IM, widow, etc...

    Point is everyone works hard for their roster.  Some save and hoard, others pay to win.  Everyone loses when they nerf someone out from under you.
    Sounds like someone doesn't remember Sentrybombing with Hood
  • ViralCore
    ViralCore Posts: 168 Tile Toppler
    Justice Jacks said:
    entrailbucket said:


    "Sure, Gambit is too good, but don't nerf him.  He lets me compete with the longtime players/high spenders." -- This is the best one.  D3 and Demiurge aren't running this game as some kind of charity, and it's not the Olympics.  It's a business, and like every other business in the world, it's run to make money.  If you're not spending at the top of the meta, *you're not supposed to be competing at the top of the meta*.  That's a feature, not a bug, otherwise there'd be no incentive for anybody to spend anything on the game.

    Except, you're takeaway is a bit off on this, I'd say.  New spenders aren't going to be coming along if they have to go back and collect all the classics too, it's just too daunting and costly at this point.  But new spenders certainly may be created via power creep (and this isn't a new concept, in this game or numerous others).  And the historical spenders likely won't slow down as the meta changes, as if they stop spending they'll be left behind.  So, IMHO, new characters like Gambit are exactly the type that Demiurge is intending to create to keep the whale money, both new and old, flowing.

    We don't have to agree with that approach, but that doesn't mean that that isn't the intent.
    Except players only get 2 more months to complete him before he goes into classics where the dilution means at least a year before new players can even be remotely close to fully covering him. How is that meta rebalance?
  • Jaedenkaal
    Jaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    RemoDestroyer said:
    Sounds like someone doesn't remember Sentrybombing with Hood
    Although, Hood's AP steal ability was NOT nerfed to end Sentry bombing. 

    Hence Aes's (sadly poignant) joke about the incoming Spider-Gwen nerf.
  • JohnnyBlood
    JohnnyBlood Posts: 85 Match Maker
    Here lies my hope as someone who's first 5* champ was Gambit:  IIRC, there were a lot of people asking for Thanos to be nerfed when he came out......and...that didn't happen.  However, as a many people have already suggested, Gambats should not be able to exist.  Red/Purple Cover or no, no other Red/Purple power should be able to be fired by another character.  That's really not a stretch.
  • Justice Jacks
    Justice Jacks Posts: 116 Tile Toppler
    ViralCore said:

    Except players only get 2 more months to complete him before he goes into classics where the dilution means at least a year before new players can even be remotely close to fully covering him. How is that meta rebalance?
    Because he's not the last.  Power creep is clear at this point.  Most important lesson D3 should have learned is Doc Ock (or any other utter garbage 5*) leads to everything they are looking to avoid.  Far better to err on the OP side than otherwise.

    As far as Gambit counters, a character that collects all charged tiles at the start of a turn would be pretty sick.  Or you release one like Kate, except rather than her CD stopping heal, you create a Strange/SS/BB type CD that can't be matched/overwritten and prevents charged-tile generation/usage.  Or, and I've advocated such a power in general, create a power that turns damage back on the opposing team.  Perhaps make it such that every match 4 or match 5 you make activates a defender power that turns all damage from an opponent power usage back on the opponent.  Perhaps at level 5 it also turns 50% back on other opponents as AOE.

    The point is there are many creative ways of beating Gambit directly or by introducing new characters.  This what BSS was to OML or Phx.  He wasn't great on his own, but if you used him to counter the two best toons in the game at that time he was hugely effective.   
  • Justice Jacks
    Justice Jacks Posts: 116 Tile Toppler
    JohnnyBlood said:
    Here lies my hope as someone who's first 5* champ was Gambit:  IIRC, there were a lot of people asking for Thanos to be nerfed when he came out......and...that didn't happen.  However, as a many people have already suggested, Gambats should not be able to exist.  Red/Purple Cover or no, no other Red/Purple power should be able to be fired by another character.  That's really not a stretch.
    Yeah, two easy fixes to that:
    1) Only generate AP for Gambit's active powers; or
    2) Gambit blocks red/purple regardless.

    #1 seems like easy and obvious fix.
  • ViralCore
    ViralCore Posts: 168 Tile Toppler
    Justice Jacks said:
    JohnnyBlood said:
    Here lies my hope as someone who's first 5* champ was Gambit:  IIRC, there were a lot of people asking for Thanos to be nerfed when he came out......and...that didn't happen.  However, as a many people have already suggested, Gambats should not be able to exist.  Red/Purple Cover or no, no other Red/Purple power should be able to be fired by another character.  That's really not a stretch.
    Yeah, two easy fixes to that:
    1) Only generate AP for Gambit's active powers; or
    2) Gambit blocks red/purple regardless.

    #1 seems like easy and obvious fix.
    You mean... like a rebalance like we've been advocating for?
  • Justice Jacks
    Justice Jacks Posts: 116 Tile Toppler
    ViralCore said:
    Justice Jacks said:
    JohnnyBlood said:
    Here lies my hope as someone who's first 5* champ was Gambit:  IIRC, there were a lot of people asking for Thanos to be nerfed when he came out......and...that didn't happen.  However, as a many people have already suggested, Gambats should not be able to exist.  Red/Purple Cover or no, no other Red/Purple power should be able to be fired by another character.  That's really not a stretch.
    Yeah, two easy fixes to that:
    1) Only generate AP for Gambit's active powers; or
    2) Gambit blocks red/purple regardless.

    #1 seems like easy and obvious fix.
    You mean... like a rebalance like we've been advocating for?
    I don't think anyone was advocating for this with respect to 5-star Gambit, as it's uncommon/unlikely to find him in that state.  If I misunderstood your position and you were limiting your concern of beating your 550s to 3* Gambat paired with Gwen, then my apologies.  But I thought the argument was that a 450 Gambit had a chance to beat a 550 roster, and you can't have a 450 Gambit that's a battery as you need all of his actives to be covered.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,850 Chairperson of the Boards
    Except 5* Thor clearly demonstrates that power creep is not a thing.

    And yes, there are plenty of ways to beat Gambit, and I can win most of the time against him.  But the entire point of this thread is that to an endgame type roster, any other 5* character at level 450 is a speed bump.  When I fight Gambit I need to bring trick teams, or boosts, or maybe even bring some future hypothetical hard counter against him, and there's a nonzero chance I'll lose if it goes a little badly.  How is that ok?

    When I fight any other combination of 5* at 450 I can just bring whatever I want and I'm going to lose or take significant damage maybe .1% of the time.  How is it ok that one character is that much better than all of the other characters?

    Again, I have not seen one response that's not "well sure he's overpowered, but <blahblahblah>."  If that's the only type of argument you can construct then you're making the case for a nerf yourself.
  • Justice Jacks
    Justice Jacks Posts: 116 Tile Toppler
    entrailbucket said:
    Except 5* Thor clearly demonstrates that power creep is not a thing.

    And yes, there are plenty of ways to beat Gambit, and I can win most of the time against him.  But the entire point of this thread is that to an endgame type roster, any other 5* character at level 450 is a speed bump.  When I fight Gambit I need to bring trick teams, or boosts, or maybe even bring some future hypothetical hard counter against him, and there's a nonzero chance I'll lose if it goes a little badly.  How is that ok?

    When I fight any other combination of 5* at 450 I can just bring whatever I want and I'm going to lose or take significant damage maybe .1% of the time.  How is it ok that one character is that much better than all of the other characters?

    Again, I have not seen one response that's not "well sure he's overpowered, but <blahblahblah>."  If that's the only type of argument you can construct then you're making the case for a nerf yourself.
    You appear to believe that no 450 should be able to touch a 550 and that's a sign of being overpowered.  I, on the other hand, believe that 450s should have a shot against 550s (just like at the 3* level and 166s against 266s, at the 4* level with 270s against 370s, etc).  So no, your characterization that the argument is "well sure he's overpowered, but . . ." is disingenuous because the argument that I have made is "well finally they have one that is right powered."  Just because they've gotten almost all (except Hawkeye) wrong does not mean that they need to correct the one they got right.

    And as to 5* Thor, power creep does not mean a straight line.  But is it your position that Thor, or DD, or even SL are worse than BSS, Phx, or God-forbid, Banner?  Ock would have been a better example of a recent dud, but again, they can't get everyone right.

    A 450 Gambit has a chance against 550s, not a great chance, but at least there's a chance.  You see that as a bug, I see it as a feature.  You can continue to pretend the argument is that we all agree he's overpowered, but when you force a premise onto others that they do not share, the conclusions you thereafter draw from the premise don't move the needle.
  • razor14
    razor14 Posts: 37 Just Dropped In
    I'm actually expecting Gambit nerf, I have him full covered for a while but haven't put any iso on him yet, didn't need him to make me place higher or destroy some people (I don't get all the hate people have, and yes I was at S2 in pvp for a long time and have always been smashed in points, but have always managed to achieve what I wanted there), but I don't face teams that have him neither...
    I wasn't playing when all the other true overpowered chars were out, so I believe in vets words when they say this is a clearly case for nerf...
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,850 Chairperson of the Boards
    Justice Jacks said:
    entrailbucket said:
    Except 5* Thor clearly demonstrates that power creep is not a thing.

    And yes, there are plenty of ways to beat Gambit, and I can win most of the time against him.  But the entire point of this thread is that to an endgame type roster, any other 5* character at level 450 is a speed bump.  When I fight Gambit I need to bring trick teams, or boosts, or maybe even bring some future hypothetical hard counter against him, and there's a nonzero chance I'll lose if it goes a little badly.  How is that ok?

    When I fight any other combination of 5* at 450 I can just bring whatever I want and I'm going to lose or take significant damage maybe .1% of the time.  How is it ok that one character is that much better than all of the other characters?

    Again, I have not seen one response that's not "well sure he's overpowered, but <blahblahblah>."  If that's the only type of argument you can construct then you're making the case for a nerf yourself.
    You appear to believe that no 450 should be able to touch a 550 and that's a sign of being overpowered.  I, on the other hand, believe that 450s should have a shot against 550s (just like at the 3* level and 166s against 266s, at the 4* level with 270s against 370s, etc).  So no, your characterization that the argument is "well sure he's overpowered, but . . ." is disingenuous because the argument that I have made is "well finally they have one that is right powered."  Just because they've gotten almost all (except Hawkeye) wrong does not mean that they need to correct the one they got right.

    And as to 5* Thor, power creep does not mean a straight line.  But is it your position that Thor, or DD, or even SL are worse than BSS, Phx, or God-forbid, Banner?  Ock would have been a better example of a recent dud, but again, they can't get everyone right.

    A 450 Gambit has a chance against 550s, not a great chance, but at least there's a chance.  You see that as a bug, I see it as a feature.  You can continue to pretend the argument is that we all agree he's overpowered, but when you force a premise onto others that they do not share, the conclusions you thereafter draw from the premise don't move the needle.
    No, you misunderstand.  I don't have 550s, I have 500ish at the high end.  *Anything* can beat my team.  I get legitimately beat in pvp by 4*, low 5*, high 5*, 5*/3*/loaner featured, all kinds of stuff.  The player who's on offense has a massive advantage in this game, such that it's totally possible to punch upward, sometimes massively so.  I can even beat 550 teams with the right team comp or a trick team.  I take all kinds of losses from all kinds of teams, and that's just the way this game is.  No one ever gets wins on defense.

    So the problem with Gambit is when I'm on offense attacking a Gambit .  I should be able to beat him as easily as I beat any other 5* character at level 450, and that is demonstrably not the case.  I suppose you could argue that I shouldn't be able to trivially beat all the other guys at 450, but I think a huge bump in the difficulty of defensive teams would make things much worse for everyone else.

    Also, you do realize that "well, every other 5* is underpowered except Gambit" means that he is the best 5*, right?  If you want them to just buff every other 5* to his level I am on board with that, but I don't see it happening.  I guess maybe you just want Gambit to be the only "right-powered" character?
  • Justice Jacks
    Justice Jacks Posts: 116 Tile Toppler
    aesthetocyst said:
    Justice Jacks said:

    Far better to err on the OP side than otherwise.

    Perfectly backwards.

    This leads to either nerfs, or burnout. Burnout of players and eventually the entire game.

    Better to maintain minimal creep, and tend to undershoot, and buff as needed.

    Always better for to give, then give a little more, than to give away the store then snatch it back.

    When adding salt to a soup, I advise against starting by dumping in all the salt you have then trying to pull the excess back out :D
    So if your analysis is accurate, then it follows that your belief is that D3 made more money when Doc Ock was in Latests than they did when Thanos/BP/HE were in Latests?  Suffice it to say I disagree.  All things being equal, they make far more when the latest and greatest is worth actually chasing.  There were tons of Buy clubs for months that were literally titled Thanos blah blah blah as it was believed he was worth every penny and was hugely overpowered (using the arguments of other here) for the meta at that time.  A 460-70 Thanos/BP can take down 550 OML/Phx teams consistently.  Meanwhile, the spend during the Doc Ock days was way down from my anecdotal experience watching the 2 main buy clubs.  The spend also went down after the OML nerf as now the things you were literally spending for were able to be ripped away without really any adequate compensation.

    So, if we can agree that D3 is here to make as much $ as possible, then yes, I'll stand by my original point that if the decision is to release an OP character rather than an UP character, you go with OP. 
  • Justice Jacks
    Justice Jacks Posts: 116 Tile Toppler
    entrailbucket said:
    You appear to believe that no 450 should be able to touch a 550 and that's a sign of being overpowered.  I, on the other hand, believe that 450s should have a shot against 550s (just like at the 3* level and 166s against 266s, at the 4* level with 270s against 370s, etc).  So no, your characterization that the argument is "well sure he's overpowered, but . . ." is disingenuous because the argument that I have made is "well finally they have one that is right powered."  Just because they've gotten almost all (except Hawkeye) wrong does not mean that they need to correct the one they got right.

    And as to 5* Thor, power creep does not mean a straight line.  But is it your position that Thor, or DD, or even SL are worse than BSS, Phx, or God-forbid, Banner?  Ock would have been a better example of a recent dud, but again, they can't get everyone right.

    A 450 Gambit has a chance against 550s, not a great chance, but at least there's a chance.  You see that as a bug, I see it as a feature.  You can continue to pretend the argument is that we all agree he's overpowered, but when you force a premise onto others that they do not share, the conclusions you thereafter draw from the premise don't move the needle.
    No, you misunderstand.  I don't have 550s, I have 500ish at the high end.  *Anything* can beat my team.  I get legitimately beat in pvp by 4*, low 5*, high 5*, 5*/3*/loaner featured, all kinds of stuff.  The player who's on offense has a massive advantage in this game, such that it's totally possible to punch upward, sometimes massively so.  I can even beat 550 teams with the right team comp or a trick team.  I take all kinds of losses from all kinds of teams, and that's just the way this game is.  No one ever gets wins on defense.

    So the problem with Gambit is when I'm on offense attacking a Gambit .  I should be able to beat him as easily as I beat any other 5* character at level 450, and that is demonstrably not the case.  I suppose you could argue that I shouldn't be able to trivially beat all the other guys at 450, but I think a huge bump in the difficulty of defensive teams would make things much worse for everyone else.

    Also, you do realize that "well, every other 5* is underpowered except Gambit" means that he is the best 5*, right?  If you want them to just buff every other 5* to his level I am on board with that, but I don't see it happening.  I guess maybe you just want Gambit to be the only "right-powered" character?
    I don't believe I ever argued he wasn't the best character available.  He's extremely useful in both sides of the game.  Before him, Thanos was clearly best, and I didn't advocate a nerf for him either.  And before Thanos is was OML and we see that a nerf to him made him largely irrelevant.

    So yes, I am always on the side of buffs verse nerfs.  Nerfs are only justified when a character is truly game breaking, and I believe your quoted post demonstrates that he's not game breaking, just that he's a good advantage to have.  Fix Banner.  Fix Doc.  Revert OML.  Then at that point perhaps would be the time to even consider a rebalance to Gambit.  But by that time, I suspect we'll be on to the next meta and Gambit will be to that meta what Thanos is to the current one.
  • Qubort
    Qubort Posts: 203 Tile Toppler
    I thought I stumbled into an old Thanos thread. Let the crying continue.
  • Qubort
    Qubort Posts: 203 Tile Toppler
    entrailbucket said:
    Well, my win rate against gambit is still pretty decent, so I'm happy to keep trying against him.  (The guy who said "learn how to shield" is awesome, please please come play s2 and I'll show you how much I shield.)

    I do think it's funny that no one has argued that he's not overpowered, only that it's ok for him to be overpowered because he "levels the playing field" somehow.  That's a really good sign that a fix is coming.  Enjoy the nerf when it shows up guys, hopefully they'll nerf him down to sub-Doc Ock level.
    It's cute you think a nerf is coming. Just like everyone that predicted a Thanos nerf. 

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