Please nerf 5* Gambit

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Comments

  • SlappyDingle
    SlappyDingle Posts: 60 Match Maker
    Is there an actual poll here on the forums showing the numbers on how many do or do not want him nerfed?
  • LifeofAgony
    LifeofAgony Posts: 690 Critical Contributor
    It would probably get closed as this is the “active” nerf gambit thread.
  • GrimSkald
    GrimSkald Posts: 2,645 Chairperson of the Boards

    Setting up a poll would be useful, I suppose. I may do that at some point.

    13 Champed 5* at the moment, including Bolt, and I firmly believe they will nerf him sooner or later.  He's very clearly an outlier and he's bad for the game.  I'm surprised they didn't this last season.

  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    SlappyDingle said:
    Is there an actual poll here on the forums showing the numbers on how many do or do not want him nerfed?
    No, and even if there were, the forum visitors are not the best indicator of the overall playerbase.  We are the vocal super minority here.
  • PorkBelly
    PorkBelly Posts: 535 Critical Contributor
    Spudgutter said:
    SlappyDingle said:
    Is there an actual poll here on the forums showing the numbers on how many do or do not want him nerfed?
    No, and even if there were, the forum visitors are not the best indicator of the overall playerbase.  We are the vocal super minority here.
    Some data is better than no data.
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    edited February 2018
    PorkBelly said:
    Spudgutter said:
    SlappyDingle said:
    Is there an actual poll here on the forums showing the numbers on how many do or do not want him nerfed?
    No, and even if there were, the forum visitors are not the best indicator of the overall playerbase.  We are the vocal super minority here.
    Some data is better than no data.
    Sure, but contentious polls on an already divided topic is nothing but bad data.  If it comes out to match your argument, you get to say "see, see, i told you so."  If it goes against what you wanted to see, you get to point out "we are talking less than 100 people out of thousands of users."  

    Character adjustments, on the whole, are rare.  Fixing the same one twice, even more rare.  On top of that, the best indicator of change, is money followed by time.  Changes that have happened that had a negative feedback usually dont get modified very quickly (vaulting), except when people spending money complain (wins based pvp).  

    The consensus I've seen and heard is that gambit had a lot of people breaking the bank to chase.  The fact that they changed him so quickly was a surprise enough on its own.  

    Now, with vaulting, they took a poorly implemented good idea, and tweaked it to make more people happy.  The same could be argued for gambit.  

    Since no one really knows, my best guess, based on my opinions above, is that the next 5* character after the next one (two releases after GR) will be an attempt at a counter to him.  I personally dont think they will change him again so soon, if at all.  But, I've been wrong about stuff before and I'll be wrong about other stuff later, so who knows.
  • 0_efx_0
    0_efx_0 Posts: 236 Tile Toppler
    Hi everyone, too much for me to read...anyone have an answer or statistic that indicates Gambit being changed again?
  • Pongie
    Pongie Posts: 1,412 Chairperson of the Boards
    Off season of no gambit, combined arms locked out 5*, and I'm running different 4* teams against many Gambolt teams in balance of power instead of bringing my own gambit. So this is what it takes for gambit to be fair. Though I love bringing gambit team ups in balance of power. Collect the teamup ap that opposing gambit cannot drain.
  • kenshohmer2
    kenshohmer2 Posts: 35 Just Dropped In
    j0nats said:
    another thing thats not mentioned much here is the point that  weve always had  OP meta that was nerfed (either direct nerf or coming out with even more op chars... then nerfing once-OP character)

    however, this was offset by the fact that these characters were given their time to shine....   enough time for those that whaled this character (hoarding was not possible then), to get ROI for their investment and possibly have gained enough cp to save for the next super character to come along.

    case in point, those with super oml won enough to get bolt... which meant being able to win enough cp for panthos and so on...

    gambit has been with the game for what 4mos?  some (or a lot i admit dont have data) have had him for less than a month. some may have him as ther first 5*.  these said people worked reeeeeaaaallly hard in game to get gambit (especially if gambit was their 1st 5), or worked reeeeaallllly hard in real life to earn the money to whale gambit.....  

      to nerf bat him so early in the game... i say is downright cruel....


    I am for a moderate re-balance of Gambit, not making him Otto or Banner level.

    I get that some people put a lot of time and money into Gambit, and a too severe nerf would rather seem unfair. Now you have to know that the people who finance mainly the game put what you put for gambit up to 20 times to get all the other 5 stars. Suddenly D3 comes with this broken character and instantly nerf most of them. Gambit even nerfs a great Daredevil who was only 1 month old (so his run was shorter than gambit's is) or a great Thor who came after him!

    While meta changed few times since 5 stars where introduced, a "all but couple" nerf never happened.

    Gambit is so broken that even without his passive he would stay in top tier. With up to 15K damage + up to 4 AP gained + possible more damage and AP gain through cascade for 7 red AP at 450,he doesn't need to get 2 more red AP per turn for free.
  • Jonny1Punch
    Jonny1Punch Posts: 436 Mover and Shaker
    What Kensh said is absolutely correct. Even if they removed his passive his red is still massively, game-breaking OP and so far ahead of any other red / other color power in the game. His purple is sadly also extremely broken and just does too much.  Overall gambit could be reworked to still be top tier but he needs a rather significant drop in all three of his powers / HP reduction as well... AKA a “ sizeable nerf” is needed not a baby tweak or buff. 

    Thor and DD are great templates for powerful, threatening yet balanced 5*. Gambit needs to fall way more in line with them. Unless the devs really want to buff and significantly strengthen every other 5* just to equalize gambit.... sadly even with a proper gambit nerf those other 5* buffs stil need to occur. Banner, BSSM, Phoenix & other’s etc.
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,824 Chairperson of the Boards
    0_efx_0 said:
    Hi everyone, too much for me to read...anyone have an answer or statistic that indicates Gambit being changed again?
    No answers from devs, who have to my knowledge never commented before a nerf, buff, or adjustment has come in the past.

    Similarly, statistics are not shared unless the devs feel like it supports their communications. 

    All we know is what is widely shared anecdotally. Almost all 5* players in PvP see Gambit teams about 90% of the time when finding matches, especially once you are past about 400 points.  And people without Gambit have a much harder time climbing above 575.
  • Calnexin
    Calnexin Posts: 1,078 Chairperson of the Boards
    j0nats said:
    another thing thats not mentioned much here is the point that  weve always had  OP meta that was nerfed (either direct nerf or coming out with even more op chars... then nerfing once-OP character)

    however, this was offset by the fact that these characters were given their time to shine....   enough time for those that whaled this character (hoarding was not possible then), to get ROI for their investment and possibly have gained enough cp to save for the next super character to come along.

    case in point, those with super oml won enough to get bolt... which meant being able to win enough cp for panthos and so on...


    I think that's giving too much credit to the character release thought process.  I highly doubt that the developers have a meta in mind when they schedule releases.  With some characters, it seems like they barely playtest the skills, preferring to push it out as barely-past-beta and let community feedback guide the adjustment.  The idea that they've planned out which characters are going to be good and who will counter whom assigns a level of forethought that is either entirely absent or so well hidden they're playing Mr. Sinister level mindgames with their players.
  • GrimSkald
    GrimSkald Posts: 2,645 Chairperson of the Boards
    Jonny1Punch said:
    What Kensh said is absolutely correct. Even if they removed his passive his red is still massively, game-breaking OP and so far ahead of any other red / other color power in the game. His purple is sadly also extremely broken and just does too much.  Overall gambit could be reworked to still be top tier but he needs a rather significant drop in all three of his powers / HP reduction as well... AKA a “ sizeable nerf” is needed not a baby tweak or buff. 

    Thor and DD are great templates for powerful, threatening yet balanced 5*. Gambit needs to fall way more in line with them. Unless the devs really want to buff and significantly strengthen every other 5* just to equalize gambit.... sadly even with a proper gambit nerf those other 5* buffs stil need to occur. Banner, BSSM, Phoenix & other’s etc.

    I disagree to an extent - I'm of the opinion that Gambit's OPness is strictly linked to his black.  This is what I think of Gambit if you take his Black out entirely.

    His red is an extremely solid power but since he doesn't generate his own Charged tiles, I don't think it's game breaking.  Bear in mind the first time you cast it you get really minimal benefit - 2 AP and very low damage to your opponent - a few hundred at least, about a K at most.  It may cause a cascade, but that's unlikely with just two tiles.  If there are no charged tiles on the board, you really do need to save up 14 AP to get anything approaching full effect and that has a serious deadening effect on it.  I really think it's the unrestricted AP gain that makes his Red really broken - you can't deny it or stop it in any way.  If you changed the 5* black to be similar to the 3* black... I think it's marginally better but you still have to spend AP to get the full effect.  I still don't think it's OP, but I could be wrong.

    Sure, paired with Bolt it's great, but without the Black I still think it's not OP.  Possibly the best Red power in the game, but not OP.

    His purple, I think, is considerably worse.  It's 11 AP, which is in the "slow" category under normal circumstances - as I said we're setting aside his Black for now.  It is an extremely good special tile destroyer, but as a damage dealing power it's very meh.  3 turn countdowns resolve a fairly low percentage of the time - you will almost never get full damage and a significant amount of the time you will get none.  Unless you pair him with say Hawkeye, but I'm looking at Gambit alone here.

    I honestly think if they changed his black to be similar to the 3* version he'd still be top tier, but not completely broken.  I suspect strongly this is what will eventually happen.


  • LifeofAgony
    LifeofAgony Posts: 690 Critical Contributor

    His red is an extremely solid power but since he doesn't generate his own Charged tiles, I don't think it's game breaking.

    Except it does create his own charged tiles.  And when he hits any tiles, charged or otherwise, it generates AP.  So even without his absurdly broken unconditional AP gen and drain, his red is a 7 ap cost that returns anywhere from 2-6 ap per turn and deals 16k damage at the low end of the champ scale hitting 2 charges.  It’s an OP power.  Not the biggest of his issues, but still an issue.

    And pair him with any charge tile maker and that’s still a stupid cheap power doing significant damage.

    Black needs to be dramatically overhauled.
    Red needs tweaking like no AP return from the tiles hit.
    Purple needs to do less damage or not target every single type of special.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    LifeofAgony said:89

    His red is an extremely solid power but since he doesn't generate his own Charged tiles, I don't think it's game breaking.

    Except it does create his own charged tiles.  And when he hits any tiles, charged or otherwise, it generates AP.  So even without his absurdly broken unconditional AP gen and drain, his red is a 7 ap cost that returns anywhere from 2-6 ap per turn and deals 16k damage at the low end of the champ scale hitting 2 charges.  It’s an OP power.  Not the biggest of his issues, but still an issue.

    And pair him with any charge tile maker and that’s still a stupid cheap power doing significant damage.

    Black needs to be dramatically overhauled.
    Red needs tweaking like no AP return from the tiles hit.
    Purple needs to do less damage or not target every single type of special.
    So without his black he gains 7 red per turn? Why can nobody try and have a reasonable discussion on this character without someone exxagerating his power (which is strong enough it doesn't need exxagerated) or wanting to pretty much reduce him to the absolute bottom of the 5* tier?
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,850 Chairperson of the Boards
    I'm not sure what else can be added to this discussion at this point.  If Gambit is the only 5* you have, or if you have no backup plan for a catastrophic nerf, you should start thinking about that plan.  Even if you think he doesn't need a nerf, at this point he is so ubiquitous that he is going to get a nerf. 

    Any time a character dominates a tier like this in the past, they have been nerfed into Bolivian.  This time is not going to be any different.  Debates about whether it's required or fair or whatever are irrelevant, and there won't be a counter, because we've all seen this movie several times before.
  • WelcomeDeath
    WelcomeDeath Posts: 349 Mover and Shaker
    tiomono said:
    LifeofAgony said:89

    His red is an extremely solid power but since he doesn't generate his own Charged tiles, I don't think it's game breaking.

    Except it does create his own charged tiles.  And when he hits any tiles, charged or otherwise, it generates AP.  So even without his absurdly broken unconditional AP gen and drain, his red is a 7 ap cost that returns anywhere from 2-6 ap per turn and deals 16k damage at the low end of the champ scale hitting 2 charges.  It’s an OP power.  Not the biggest of his issues, but still an issue.

    And pair him with any charge tile maker and that’s still a stupid cheap power doing significant damage.

    Black needs to be dramatically overhauled.
    Red needs tweaking like no AP return from the tiles hit.
    Purple needs to do less damage or not target every single type of special.
    So without his black he gains 7 red per turn? Why can nobody try and have a reasonable discussion on this character without someone exxagerating his power (which is strong enough it doesn't need exxagerated) or wanting to pretty much reduce him to the absolute bottom of the 5* tier?
    I agree.  His red costing 14 AP for first cast and actually having to match to get it would be fine.  Actually I'm of the opinion it would be too expensive like that.  It should be 8ap, 15k, no charged tiles needed.  In regards to his purple....It does the same thing as Nat, Jean grey and spiderwoman, plus there's a bunch of other characters that steal/negate/destroy special tiles other than countdowns.  Oh and with Nat its instant damage, not tied to countdowns.....for the same AP cost  But you never heard a call for her nerf, so....

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