How do the clubbed baby seals feel?
Comments
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Ive made the point before, but I think its still valid.mexus said:
Indeed THIS.shardwick said:More covers, more rewards, less frustration and I've saved some hp. It's been pretty positive for me. I wish pve was setup in a similar fashion where you have the full length of the event to get your rewards instead of playing in 24-48 hr subs. So if the time change screwed you up, you got busy with work/family or if your internet went out in the middle of your usual grind then it wouldn't really impact you too much.
I never understood the placement / ranking thing in PVE at all, just move those rewards into progression.
As it is now, PVE is just as much PVP as PVP is PVE.
(maybe that's why they're called Versus and Story)
PVE and PVP have swapped players, or should have, IMO.
Pre changes 5*s were scaled out of PVE, hence their devotion to PVP where their strength game them genuine advantage (as it should).
PVE was better for 4* level players who found it the ideal balance of effort/reward aided by scaling.
Where are we now?
4* players cant compete with 5*s in PVE, and hold all the aces in PVP!0 -
A few observations, suggestions, and my plans for next season:
- Wins-based is not bad in and of itself, and I understand the goal to improve this for some segments of the community. However, this was poorly implemented because...
- The actual goals and rewards do not reflect the realities of different levels of the player base, especially the mid-to-high level player base (high 4* through a good chunk of the 5*). 40 wins is a painful slog for a 4* or 5 * player. The structure of rewards has exposed another weakness...
- The SCLs were potentially a good idea. They do not reflect anything meaningful. This change makes that painfully obvious. When you have high rosters diving down to SCL5 to get rewards, something is wrong. While the change opened some rewards for budding rosters, it closed down others.
Some suggestions:- Adjust the win counts and rewards to reflect the levels of the player base. Make it so the high level players would want to stay in SCL8. One suggestion would be to simply make SCL 7-8 have 15 CP for T25, or SCL 7 have 15 for T10 and 10 for T25. Or taper CP across T100. Something to make it worthwhile for people to stay at high levels.
- It would be nice to see some limits on where various rosters can play. If a player is SL125, either hold them to SCL7-8, or make the rewards there enough that they don't want to leave higher levels. (The rewards would be better). This was pre-existing to wins-based PVP; there hasn't been anything to drive players to play higher levels since SCLs came out.
- Fix MMR. It's ridiculous. While I'm OK broadly with wins-based, MMR is a major factor that makes it even worse. It's been known to be a problem for a long, long time. My lonely barely champed Surfer and a 435 Hawkeye gets me qs filled with high-level Gambolts and Panthos. That's just stupid.
- Developers: demonstrate that you've tested the game at all player levels. All of the above, and most of the negative commentary are a reflection of not understanding how the game is played and what the experience is like at various player levels. Surveys are nice, play is better.
For me, next season I go to 16 wins, and play 3 sim matches a day. I was a T50 player or better; now it's just not worth my time. It is plain not fun to play, and if it's not fun, it's work. I'll be moving completely out of PVP, which I've been playing competitively since before CCs and Line were a thing.8 -
Anyone who has been around long enough knows that the barrier to entry, even at the beginning level, in pvp is pretty high. Downplaying that does not rewrite history to say pvp wasnt broken.AlexxKats said:Ducky also forgot to quote his sources of all that claims regarding devs.
Because, if for some reason you speak for them with data, feel free to share, or disclaim it as your own personal position as a "player"
Acting like this is the first big change to impact and irritate high level players is either disingenuous or willfully ignorant. Creating thread after thread, collecting "data" that the devs already have, isn't changing it.
Will it be adjusted in the seasons to come? Possibly. We have no way of knowing
Will it change because of the campaign of just a few people? Highly unlikely.
Will those people claim credit if it does get changed? Not a doubt in my mind.4 -
The devs are also selling these customers false goods. The carrot is 5*s. Once they've gotten to a point (admittedly way down the road by playtime and spending) to aquire 5*s... they'll find their time and money investment was a waste.Ducky said:
You may disagree but the MPQ playerbase is immensely larger than the Line community so the things that keep them playing matter a bit more because if they leave it's a bigger loss due to sheer numbers. Your experience with MPQ is so far out of the ordinary for average Joe MPQ'er that it doesn't even make sense to try and compare it. You've turned MPQ into a game of chess while the rest of the MPQ playerbase is playing checkers. If you fail to see that, I'm not sure what else I can tell you. The devs made these changes to engage more players because their surveys evidently told them that PvP was not welcoming to your average player and nothing you say will change that fact. Alienating a segment of the playerbase as large as the non-cooperating, non-Line using MPQ'ers from the Versus mode of MPQ is probably a bad thing to do from the perspective of keeping the game alive. Just sayin'.The rockett said:
See I disagree. Without the community of LINE, I would not be playing anymore. That is the sole reason I still play because it is great to talk to people across the world and learn new things. In fact met a few in RL.Calnexin said:
Spot-on. Every time I (used to) reply to the in-game survey, I say I wouldn't recommend it because it's too difficult for a new player to approach. And now with your insight, I feel like I shot myself in the foot. Or at least helped load the gun.smkspy said:
I feel the PvP changes are a direction result of an established community-based game becoming so large that it tends to scare away new players more than it attracts them.
In my case, I'm just happy I was fortunate to waste time and not money.0 -
What false goods?acescracked said:
The devs are also selling these customers false goods. The carrot is 5*s. Once they've gotten to a point (admittedly way down the road by playtime and spending) to aquire 5*s... they'll find their time and money investment was a waste.Ducky said:
You may disagree but the MPQ playerbase is immensely larger than the Line community so the things that keep them playing matter a bit more because if they leave it's a bigger loss due to sheer numbers. Your experience with MPQ is so far out of the ordinary for average Joe MPQ'er that it doesn't even make sense to try and compare it. You've turned MPQ into a game of chess while the rest of the MPQ playerbase is playing checkers. If you fail to see that, I'm not sure what else I can tell you. The devs made these changes to engage more players because their surveys evidently told them that PvP was not welcoming to your average player and nothing you say will change that fact. Alienating a segment of the playerbase as large as the non-cooperating, non-Line using MPQ'ers from the Versus mode of MPQ is probably a bad thing to do from the perspective of keeping the game alive. Just sayin'.The rockett said:
See I disagree. Without the community of LINE, I would not be playing anymore. That is the sole reason I still play because it is great to talk to people across the world and learn new things. In fact met a few in RL.Calnexin said:
Spot-on. Every time I (used to) reply to the in-game survey, I say I wouldn't recommend it because it's too difficult for a new player to approach. And now with your insight, I feel like I shot myself in the foot. Or at least helped load the gun.smkspy said:
I feel the PvP changes are a direction result of an established community-based game becoming so large that it tends to scare away new players more than it attracts them.
In my case, I'm just happy I was fortunate to waste time and not money.0 -
Not everyone cares about the 5* game and people are playing in the now. Like for me I have 17 champed 4*s and absolutely could not care less about 5*s because I love the 4* game and slowly building up more of my 4s. Also, it's a mobile game, the whole point of it is to be a time waster. I don't think I've stuck with a mobile game, or most games for that matter, for longer than a few months so even if I walked away from the game today and never played another match I put a stupid amount of time into this game so I could look back with fond memories. Well, fond memories minus the billion aggravating fights with Daken would come out to still somewhat enjoyable memories. And I've only spent like $20 on the game. 13 or 14 months of daily entertainment from a game is pretty damn good especially when you consider it's a match three game.3
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sh81 said:
Ive made the point before, but I think its still valid.mexus said:
Indeed THIS.shardwick said:More covers, more rewards, less frustration and I've saved some hp. It's been pretty positive for me. I wish pve was setup in a similar fashion where you have the full length of the event to get your rewards instead of playing in 24-48 hr subs. So if the time change screwed you up, you got busy with work/family or if your internet went out in the middle of your usual grind then it wouldn't really impact you too much.
I never understood the placement / ranking thing in PVE at all, just move those rewards into progression.
As it is now, PVE is just as much PVP as PVP is PVE.
(maybe that's why they're called Versus and Story)
PVE and PVP have swapped players, or should have, IMO.
Pre changes 5*s were scaled out of PVE, hence their devotion to PVP where their strength game them genuine advantage (as it should).
PVE was better for 4* level players who found it the ideal balance of effort/reward aided by scaling.
Where are we now?
4* players cant compete with 5*s in PVE, and hold all the aces in PVP!
Not all the aces. Getting top placement in PvP is easy with fivestars, so while it may be more of a slog to get 40 wins it's still easy to get an extra 15 CP per PvP. I don't mind trading some of the progression rewards for those 15 CP, I have more use for the CP in the long run.1 -
I honestly feel bad about clubbing seals, so it's good to hear from those folks that they don't mind. - thanks!
I do feel worse when I get the +1 after shielding and see the roster.
Please baby seals - Please check the red node you're hitting - or at least bring a DP3 whales TU and super whales it.
I feel like such a bully seeing those defensive wins against a roster that has almost no chance against championed 5*s1 -
In the end i get 40 wins and a top 50 placement. Good enough for me. I dont normally pay attention to who hits me.alaeth said:I honestly feel bad about clubbing seals, so it's good to hear from those folks that they don't mind. - thanks!
I do feel worse when I get the +1 after shielding and see the roster.
Please baby seals - Please check the red node you're hitting - or at least bring a DP3 whales TU and super whales it.
I feel like such a bully seeing those defensive wins against a roster that has almost no chance against championed 5*s0 -
For what it is worth, I usually leave out weak teams (4* player) because I stopped caring about placement and play progression only. My hope is that people hit me with weak teams and in turn and we can climb off each other. Sometimes they do just that and sometimes they bring their Sunday best. Either way, I really don't care. The weaker teams that hit me, the more variety I have in my teambuilding options which is fun for me. You bring your best, I either need to bring mine or skip. I can usually climb to the 30's with no problem just using 3's and unboosted 4s though.alaeth said:I honestly feel bad about clubbing seals, so it's good to hear from those folks that they don't mind. - thanks!
I do feel worse when I get the +1 after shielding and see the roster.
Please baby seals - Please check the red node you're hitting - or at least bring a DP3 whales TU and super whales it.
I feel like such a bully seeing those defensive wins against a roster that has almost no chance against championed 5*s
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I love being clubbed cause it gets me to progression faster by reducing my mmr due to points. Come one, come all, knock me down so I can rise again.
Got every 4* this season and top25 placement. Even got the elusive season 15cp. Let's not forget, that wasn't really accessible to most people prior to wins based pvp.
I do feel bad for those that hit 1200 every pvp, cause truly, cp is the best way to get the 5* progress, but this change affects me in a positive way and my own 5* roster is growing faster thanks to the change.
Down the road though, I can see myself hating this change, maybe?1 -
Seriously - dont worry about it.alaeth said:I honestly feel bad about clubbing seals, so it's good to hear from those folks that they don't mind. - thanks!
I do feel worse when I get the +1 after shielding and see the roster.
Please baby seals - Please check the red node you're hitting - or at least bring a DP3 whales TU and super whales it.
I feel like such a bully seeing those defensive wins against a roster that has almost no chance against championed 5*s
If someone is serious about placement they will be shielding as best they can and likely less effected. If someone isnt shielded then chances are they really dont care - so why should you?
Also - Id be interested to see what effect the new system has had on defensive wins. It occurs to me people could well be seeing a lot more points coming in this way.
Anecdotally Im noticing some defensive wins - though I dont leave a team out with that in mind. However, being someone going for progression only - Im losing a lot more as well. Ill happily take a match with my players half dead just on the off chance I get lucky and win before using health packs. And when my preferred players are out, and Im out of health packs I am happy to throw random teams at a few matches to see if I can get a win (often losing).
So Im pretty sure I personally contribute to defensive wins for people, I wonder if its more widespread?0 -
It could be people deliberately tanking to stay in the lower point MMR. If you don't care about placement, the current win-based progression REALLY seems to incentivize tanking, as opponents are much more wide open below ~500pts. I am trying for 40 wins for the first time in Patch's PVP (my Quake is 5/5/2) and I fully expect to do this myself to avoid the endless repetition above 500 pts. It's not a definite plan, but PVP is as much a battle against MMR as any of your opponents, so I'm not ruling it out...alaeth said:I honestly feel bad about clubbing seals, so it's good to hear from those folks that they don't mind. - thanks!
I do feel worse when I get the +1 after shielding and see the roster.
Please baby seals - Please check the red node you're hitting - or at least bring a DP3 whales TU and super whales it.
I feel like such a bully seeing those defensive wins against a roster that has almost no chance against championed 5*s0 -
I will also throw absolutely terrible teams at the hardest match I've got to reset the skip tax. There might be some of that going on there, too.
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All your CP are belong to us clubbed seals. Seriously, the 16 Wins = 10CP is where all your progression CP went.ZootSax said:
It could be people deliberately tanking to stay in the lower point MMR.alaeth said:I honestly feel bad about clubbing seals, so it's good to hear from those folks that they don't mind. - thanks!
I know I hit a few, wait till I get bashed back down to get more viable targets - maybe I will try tanking now too.
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What’s a gash team? (Can’t keep up with all this forum lingo!)Tony Foot said:I don't even care which 4 stars are boosted in a week anymore, I'm climbing with gash teams to 16 wins and rarely even have to use a boosted 4 stars. The more hits the better and quicker I can get done with this pile of steaming er fun?0 -
I dont think its forum lingo, its UK lingo. Gash = Rubbish/Terrible/Fill in the blank...0
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With the upcoming changes to XP, the seals have been killed.0
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No. If you use a weaker team to retreat to the harder team to forgo the skip team, that team doesn't show. Only your A team. If you go in with a weaker team and lose to the harder team, your stronger team or A team still shows after the lose.TPF Alexis said:I will also throw absolutely terrible teams at the hardest match I've got to reset the skip tax. There might be some of that going on there, too.
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He’s talking about something different. If you take a weak team into a match and retreat, the iso penalty for skipping an opponent (skip tax) resets. To me personally that is too much work (even just the time to switch teams) to save such a measly amount of iso but people are doing it.The rockett said:
No. If you use a weaker team to retreat to the harder team to forgo the skip team, that team doesn't show. Only your A team. If you go in with a weaker team and lose to the harder team, your stronger team or A team still shows after the lose.TPF Alexis said:I will also throw absolutely terrible teams at the hardest match I've got to reset the skip tax. There might be some of that going on there, too.
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