How do the clubbed baby seals feel?

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  • BoyWonder1914
    BoyWonder1914 Posts: 884 Critical Contributor
    edited October 2017
    NotBAMF said:
    BoyWonder1914 said:
    Yet, you're implying that people couldn't play "freely" before. An hour is an hour, so it blows me away that people block off an hour for PVE yet consider the multiple breaks they take to get to 40 wins over 2.5 days as negligible time. Even if it's 10-20 minutes at a time, that still adds up. You do realize that 4 essential nodes, 6 regular nodes, with 4 wins on each is 40 wins right? And people do THAT in 1-2 hours EVERY DAY with no complaints. I wonder why that is......maybe because they know they're done with it after those 1-2 hours and don't need to keep picking it up here and there like they used to with the 8-hour refreshes? Gee whiz, seems like people preferred that pretty heavily over a constant grind. Just baffling. 


    Dude, you're not going to convince those of us that enjoy the freedom of the new system to suddenly start NOT liking it. I don't get why you're trying so hard to convince @sh81 that he's wrong for just giving his personal stance on playing in the new system (a stance that I wholeheartedly agree with. Virtually everything he is saying is stuff to which I relate).

    No one is telling you that you HAVE to like the new PVP or that your concerns about the changes are patently invalid or wrong. Why can't you respect sh81's thoughts that are trending more positively? SH81 is not saying "NO, THIS IS HOW IT IS" like you are; he's repeatedly saying this is his experience, and he finds it to be positive. So do I. Different strokes for different folks, you know?

    Nor am I trying to. But I'm also not going to allow talk about the old system as if it didn't allow "freedom" just because you had trouble with it, or chose not to play it. If you enjoy the new system, good for you, but don't spread misconceptions about the old one as if it was broken somehow. 

    I'm personally struggling with this conception that more time commitment = more freedom. 
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Tile Toppler
    You do realise that 40 wins in PVP in matches worth points actually going into just doesnt happen, right? You also realise that PVE is basically fodder bar one or two nodes, and PVP is challenging pretty much right off the bat, right? The two arent comparable in the way you are attempting. And the main point I think you are not taking is that, in saying I can play freely - I am saying I can play as and when I want. I am not scheduled to sit for a solid hour at the same time every night. I am not scheduled by my shield expiring. I dont have to sit and grind at all. I can simply play here and there as the mood takes me, which has been a revelation.
  • NotBAMF
    NotBAMF Posts: 408 Mover and Shaker

    I don't really know how to relate anything to you any better than Sh81 already has, but I'll give it a try. All I can do is give you my thoughts on the matter. It's just my personal experience with the new system.

    1) I was a player who consistently scored 5000+ points in the previous seasons, but in all my time of playing PVP, I only broke the 900 points barrier (the 4* cover) ONCE. To me, it was a ridiculously arduous task to achieve, and it involved setting aside chunks of time to play, wasting HP on Shields, and STILL watching my score drop 100+ points during one battle while I was playing. Since the wins-based system has taken over, I have gotten the 4* cover every time but once, and that was on a PVP when the 4* reward was not one I wanted (I likely won't get the Peggy cover from the Cyclops event, either, because I don't have any Peggy's to start with). The wins-based system has opened doors to me that I used to not have access to.

    2) I'm *PERSONALLY* not having more of a time commitment than I used to; in every PVP event under the new system, I am earning rewards at FEWER points than they were allotted under the previous system. I'm getting the 10CP reward when I am still in the 400 points range. I am getting the 4* cover while I am in the 650-750 range. So for me, it's not a bigger time commitment. For others, perhaps it is. But I am not finding that to be the case. I'm earning things more quickly than I used to.

    3) Under the old system, I had to set aside time and health packs for PVP play. I had to wait until I had a MINIMUM of 10 health packs (ideally more from either the DDQ or other sources), a fully healed roster, and an hour+ to play uninterrupted. And then I'd tear through with only my best possible team and get as many points as I could. And then I'd waste HP (which I can think of 10 better uses for) on shields or health packs. Now? I can play a PVP battle here and there without concern. Have 5 minutes of a lull at work? Play a PVP battle. Fifteen minute break? Play 2 or 3 PVP battles. Waiting for my wife to finish dinner? Play a PVP battle or two. Have ten minutes before we're ready to go out for the night? PVP battle! I literally play at my leisure, regardless of my roster's health or how long I have to play. And there's no worry about "If I play now, I'll break my shield". There's no need whatsoever to shield now (for me). There's no preparation and planning for PVP any more; it's now "Eh, I'll get to it when I can". And I greatly enjoy that.


    I suppose a retort to most of what I said about my previous points-based experience will be "OMG YOU WERE DOIN IT WRONG YOU JUST DON'T KNOW HOW TO PLAY PVP N00B!". And that may be the case. Maybe I should have put a lot of research into how the exact optimal way to climb points in the old system. But you know what? That sounds like it would have taken a time commitment to study and learn. And some people have told me that time commitments are the worst thing ever. :)

  • corytutor
    corytutor Posts: 414 Mover and Shaker
    TPF Alexis said:

    corytutor said:
    I dont mean to be mean but looking at the responses it seems the most in favor of the new system didnt play competitively to begin with, or thought they were, but have no understanding on how to succeed at it under the old paradigm. 

    The ones who could do it are the largest portion against the change, like myself. 
    Just because a chunk of the player base had figured out how to optimize the broken system doesn't mean that it wasn't broken, or that it didn't need to be fixed.

    Im not saying it wasnt, but it really wasnt as bad as many think. The problem was that there was never a guidline for people to follow to understand. If you didnt communicate with players who knew, you got slaughtered. I couldnt even consider competitive pvp for a year into playing, and it wasnt until i met people who understood the system that i could become competitive. 

    Afterwards, i was able to 1200 every event, with or without line rooms, with loaners, non boosted toons, pretty much any situation they could throw at a roster. 

    Can i still? Absolutely. But theres no joy in it. I dont enjoy being forced to 40. I dont, usually, enjoy bracket sniping. I dont like being forced to t10 or take a huge loss in expenses and overall feel like they took what could have been an enjoyable new experience and made it worse. 

    And lets not pretend this new system isnt broken because it is, even more so than the old system. 

    If a player can use 1000hp on shields, get 2000 points and not get cp that someone with no shields got for 800 in a lower scl, thats broken. Its even worse if mr 2000 didnt get 40.  

    On the other end you have guys going to lower scl, putting up 20 wins, giving up covers but pushing down lower rosters from t10 for cp. 

    Then you have season rewards. For the 10 pack that usually comes at 4000 i had nearly 7k before reaching. In instances like mine, its likely to increase my season score quiet a bit. Especially if i was chasing 40 every event. This is going to further suppress rewards from lower rosters as season placement will become harder. 

    And if it stays this way what you will see is more and more players at the 4* level who are stuck there because they cant reliably gain the one asset they need to transition to the next tier in one half of the game. 

    This will, and already has made pve placement even more valuable than before and more top rosters will play to supplement their cp supply. 
  • BoyWonder1914
    BoyWonder1914 Posts: 884 Critical Contributor
    sh81 said:
    You do realise that 40 wins in PVP in matches worth points actually going into just doesnt happen, right? You also realise that PVE is basically fodder bar one or two nodes, and PVP is challenging pretty much right off the bat, right? The two arent comparable in the way you are attempting. And the main point I think you are not taking is that, in saying I can play freely - I am saying I can play as and when I want. I am not scheduled to sit for a solid hour at the same time every night. I am not scheduled by my shield expiring. I dont have to sit and grind at all. I can simply play here and there as the mood takes me, which has been a revelation.
    Your perspective, from someone who felt it was "impossible" before. Funny I'm the one reminding you of that now, so please don't say it just "doesn't" happen. The people scoring 2000+ points before and after this change would beg to differ. 

    Also, the comparison I'm making here is the time commitment. PVP + PVE, it's still hours of you doing nothing but MPQ, even if you break it up into 20 minutes here, 30 minutes there. I'll digress on that, since the bigger issue here is that you seem to believe that throwing up a couple shields means you couldn't "play when you want" under the old system. The only thing about it that required a "solid hour" was your initial climb. A shield hop is 1-3 matches, rarely more than 5 minutes. So sorry, you're not going to convince me that a 5-minute (if that) shield hop is some kind of major threat to my free time. Nor is it the "same time every night", you could play and put up your shields whenever you wanted. This new system works for YOU for the reasons you stated, great, I get that. But at the same time, you can't use the reasons that the old system didn't work for YOU as a way to say that it didn't allow those freedoms for everyone. There were a lot of things wrong with the old system, that applied to everyone universally, but freedom with your schedule was not one of those things. I'm not challenging the fact you define your freedom as playing when you want, I'm challenging the fact that you erroneously believe you didn't have that freedom the old way. 
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Tile Toppler
    BoyWonder1914 said:
    sh81 said:
    You do realise that 40 wins in PVP in matches worth points actually going into just doesnt happen, right? You also realise that PVE is basically fodder bar one or two nodes, and PVP is challenging pretty much right off the bat, right? The two arent comparable in the way you are attempting. And the main point I think you are not taking is that, in saying I can play freely - I am saying I can play as and when I want. I am not scheduled to sit for a solid hour at the same time every night. I am not scheduled by my shield expiring. I dont have to sit and grind at all. I can simply play here and there as the mood takes me, which has been a revelation.
    Your perspective, from someone who felt it was "impossible" before. Funny I'm the one reminding you of that now, so please don't say it just "doesn't" happen. The people scoring 2000+ points before and after this change would beg to differ. 

    Also, the comparison I'm making here is the time commitment. PVP + PVE, it's still hours of you doing nothing but MPQ, even if you break it up into 20 minutes here, 30 minutes there. I'll digress on that, since the bigger issue here is that you seem to believe that throwing up a couple shields means you couldn't "play when you want" under the old system. The only thing about it that required a "solid hour" was your initial climb. A shield hop is 1-3 matches, rarely more than 5 minutes. So sorry, you're not going to convince me that a 5-minute (if that) shield hop is some kind of major threat to my free time. Nor is it the "same time every night", you could play and put up your shields whenever you wanted. This new system works for YOU for the reasons you stated, great, I get that. But at the same time, you can't use the reasons that the old system didn't work for YOU as a way to say that it didn't allow those freedoms for everyone. There were a lot of things wrong with the old system, that applied to everyone universally, but freedom with your schedule was not one of those things. I'm not challenging the fact you define your freedom as playing when you want, I'm challenging the fact that you erroneously believe you didn't have that freedom the old way. 


    NEVER have I come across the ability to play over an hour solid of matches worth playing.  Never.  Ive tried multiple slices and tried playing multiple times of day - it never happened for me at all.  As Ive said, I dont know if its MMR or just luck - but I can assure you despite my best efforts those sort of climbs were simply not available to me.

    As I detailed, I would have to climb, fall, climb, shield, hop.... and it was minor incremental progress at best and often backsliding instead.

    As stated, I have made the 4* reward, it was just as much luck as anything else, and always at a fair HP expense and huge effort.  This is despite doing my best to pick up the tips and tricks and advice on here.

    Throwing up shields costs HP.  I dont have an unlimited resevoir of HP, and often felt the crunch thanks to the number of shields required at times.  If I put up an 8 hour shield Im waiting for my health packs to recover, and Im waiting to queue matches worth playing, and so the choice is simple.  Spot one match, unshield, play, shield again (expensive) - or wait until that shield nears expiration to make the most of what I paid for.  Play some matches and then shield again - hopefully making more significant progress (but often not).

    This partitions/schedules my play, dictated by shields predominantly.  And, should I miss a shield expiring, Im getting knocked back considerably and the climb is then even harder.

    I did not, practically, have the ability to just play a few matches here or there.  Most certainly not without consequence.  I do now.  And, on balance, Im not even having to play considerably more than before.  This is a marked improvement, and without doubt comes with more freedom to play as I choose.

    Roll into this equation PVE, which for me starts at 10pm - suddenly something of a routine has to form to enable a fair crack at each.


    So challenge away, but I dont accept it.  I DO have more freedom now.  The only way I would have the same freedom before is if I had no care for rewards or unlimited HP. 



  • aa25
    aa25 Posts: 348 Mover and Shaker
    NotBAMF said:

    Yeah, I hadn't really thought about it before, but as I'm reading this, I'm realizing one of the biggest differences between players is that there is a whole segment of the population to whom HP is clearly not an object, and Shields were something to throw up and then drop willy nilly several times over the course of a day. Am I reading that right? Damn, must be nice if so.

    Man, there are consistently SEVERAL things I'd rather spend HP on than Shields. Not having to even consider Shielding under the new system is a delight.

    Is there other better things to spend hp on in the game ? I mean, I usually dropped like 475 hp (3h/8h/24h) for a guaranteed 4* cover, 15 cp, decent placement which gives me 3x 3* cover, some refund hp, nice chunk of ISO. The only thing I can think off that is better than shield is the roster slot. Tokens with 70%+ chance for 2* ? Nope, HfH which costs almost 10 times as expensive ? Nope. Or maybe the yearly anniversary vault is debatable.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Tile Toppler
    aa25 said:
    NotBAMF said:

    Yeah, I hadn't really thought about it before, but as I'm reading this, I'm realizing one of the biggest differences between players is that there is a whole segment of the population to whom HP is clearly not an object, and Shields were something to throw up and then drop willy nilly several times over the course of a day. Am I reading that right? Damn, must be nice if so.

    Man, there are consistently SEVERAL things I'd rather spend HP on than Shields. Not having to even consider Shielding under the new system is a delight.

    Is there other better things to spend hp on in the game ? I mean, I usually dropped like 475 hp (3h/8h/24h) for a guaranteed 4* cover, 15 cp, decent placement which gives me 3x 3* cover, some refund hp, nice chunk of ISO. The only thing I can think off that is better than shield is the roster slot. Tokens with 70%+ chance for 2* ? Nope, HfH which costs almost 10 times as expensive ? Nope. Or maybe the yearly anniversary vault is debatable.
    I just put 900 into the hallowween vault, got both 4*, a 3* Blade and a nice boost to my 2* farm.

    AND Ill still get all of the above from PVP anyway.  So, for me, its a big improvement.

    Ill now, realistically, have such a HP surlus I can think about more duplicate 3*s to farm, and clearing vaults that have covers I really want - options I didnt have before.
  • Jarvind
    Jarvind Posts: 1,684 Chairperson of the Boards
    I had to hit the same guy like seven times to get to 40 in the Cyclops event. It was the only 4* team I could queue in an ocean of championed Gambolt and Hawkbit teams.

    Sorry, that guy.
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 985 Critical Contributor
    I don't care-

    1- If I have higher points than they do, they used to hit me anyway
    2- If they have more, I don't lose much and I don't care about placements

    As of yet all it does is give me free skips to get my 16 wins - as for season I am exactly at the same level I used to be.

    Don't know about you all, honestly I don't care, but for me I don't see the difference except that I never use HP anymore and I can get what I want, sure it's more matches but there is nothing anyone can do to prevent me from doing it and I can do it whenever I choose to play, no need to time jumps anymore
  • ABaker84
    ABaker84 Posts: 90 Match Maker
    Like many other baby seal rosters, I never got to the 900 pts, would always stop at 575, sometimes 650 if one of my 7 4*champs is boasted that week

    As a baby seal, keep clubbing. Just knocks me down to get easier opponents. Some times when my A team is beat up and health packs are low, I'll enter a match with the loaner and 2 un leveled 4*s and lose intentionally. The next three matches are always 3* teams, just have to skip a few times. 

    So yes, please club my boasted and champed riri and my 280 Culson (current A Team for the Cyke event). I went from doing SCL 5 to 7 just for the progress rewards. So club away!


  • shardwick
    shardwick Posts: 2,121 Chairperson of the Boards
    aa25 said:
    NotBAMF said:

    Yeah, I hadn't really thought about it before, but as I'm reading this, I'm realizing one of the biggest differences between players is that there is a whole segment of the population to whom HP is clearly not an object, and Shields were something to throw up and then drop willy nilly several times over the course of a day. Am I reading that right? Damn, must be nice if so.

    Man, there are consistently SEVERAL things I'd rather spend HP on than Shields. Not having to even consider Shielding under the new system is a delight.

    Is there other better things to spend hp on in the game ? I mean, I usually dropped like 475 hp (3h/8h/24h) for a guaranteed 4* cover, 15 cp, decent placement which gives me 3x 3* cover, some refund hp, nice chunk of ISO. The only thing I can think off that is better than shield is the roster slot. Tokens with 70%+ chance for 2* ? Nope, HfH which costs almost 10 times as expensive ? Nope. Or maybe the yearly anniversary vault is debatable.
    Farming. It's pretty much turned into its own game for me. I would love it if they could come up with another use for hp though outside of buying packs, HfH covers, shields and roster spots. 
  • BoyWonder1914
    BoyWonder1914 Posts: 884 Critical Contributor
    sh81 said:

    NEVER have I come across the ability to play over an hour solid of matches worth playing.  Never.  Ive tried multiple slices and tried playing multiple times of day - it never happened for me at all.  As Ive said, I dont know if its MMR or just luck - but I can assure you despite my best efforts those sort of climbs were simply not available to me.

    As I detailed, I would have to climb, fall, climb, shield, hop.... and it was minor incremental progress at best and often backsliding instead.

    As stated, I have made the 4* reward, it was just as much luck as anything else, and always at a fair HP expense and huge effort.  This is despite doing my best to pick up the tips and tricks and advice on here.

    Throwing up shields costs HP.  I dont have an unlimited resevoir of HP, and often felt the crunch thanks to the number of shields required at times.  If I put up an 8 hour shield Im waiting for my health packs to recover, and Im waiting to queue matches worth playing, and so the choice is simple.  Spot one match, unshield, play, shield again (expensive) - or wait until that shield nears expiration to make the most of what I paid for.  Play some matches and then shield again - hopefully making more significant progress (but often not).

    This partitions/schedules my play, dictated by shields predominantly.  And, should I miss a shield expiring, Im getting knocked back considerably and the climb is then even harder.

    I did not, practically, have the ability to just play a few matches here or there.  Most certainly not without consequence.  I do now.  And, on balance, Im not even having to play considerably more than before.  This is a marked improvement, and without doubt comes with more freedom to play as I choose.

    Roll into this equation PVE, which for me starts at 10pm - suddenly something of a routine has to form to enable a fair crack at each.


    So challenge away, but I dont accept it.  I DO have more freedom now.  The only way I would have the same freedom before is if I had no care for rewards or unlimited HP. 



    Your strategy was incredibly inefficient, but once again, I'll chalk that up to you apparently not knowing any better. Doesn't mean that you didn't still have freedom. But I'll digress, it's pointless to keep explaining to you what you could have done differently under a system that no longer exists. Have fun with your slogs. 
  • carrion_pigeons
    carrion_pigeons Posts: 942 Critical Contributor
    Personally, PvP had been getting steadily harder for me even before the change, and it's continued to the point where I *might* be engaged enough to play 1-3 matches before running into an endless string of champed Carols or something that I can't beat, and I just stop caring.

    I suppose at some point my transition will ease up and 4* land won't seem so daunting, but in the meantime PvP is no fun at all, progression-based rewards or not.
  • DrDevilDinosaur
    DrDevilDinosaur Posts: 436 Mover and Shaker
    DrDevilDinosaur said:

    I'm only at 35 wins in Sim right now, so that's a little lower than where I probably should be for this far through the season. In part, I had been holding off on progressing since I wanted to use the bullseye covers to finish a 2* farm, so I was just waiting for the right timing to make the swap. With 39 more wins required I'll need to average 3 wins a day from here on out.  I'd like to avoid leaving it to the end, so I'll probably try and fit some larger Sim sessions in along the way. In a vacuum, the 74 wins doesn't seem too bad, however the fact is that there are other PvP events running alongside which are asking a similar level of time contribution. I also really want that Rogue cover, so I'll be targeting those wins - there have been other covers in the past (Sandman) where I haven't prioritised hitting 2000 points and wasn't upset when I missed it. I think I'll have to get back to you at the end of the season and see if my opinion has changed dramatically.

    Back again after finishing Simulator.

    I ended up on 1958 points when I hit 74 wins, so the new system appears to have saved me ~2 matches.

    It was a bit of a drag, since I skipped to avoid teams of Grocket/Gamora/Medusa, which easily made up 90% of my offered matches. At least right up until I hit the progression reward at 68 wins, at which point I swapped over to use Grocket & Gamora myself (with Cloak & Dagger as the third) and suddenly started seeing a fairly diverse range of teams once more. I feel that this part of the experience probably would have been the same under points progression, however I probably would have capitulated and just run the stronger team from a much lower point total.

    I did slack off in the Hulk PvP in order to focus on Simulator, stopping after the 10 CP there. So that's also something to consider. However one of the factors in stopping was the constant barrage of Hulk + Carol/Medusa/Grocket (pick 2), even unboosted, they turned up far tooo frequently. For the effort of wading through so many similar teams, the Rogue cover in Simulator seemed like a better prize. Again, this is an issue that is unrelated to points vs wins, however I will maintain that it's the more serious problem. At this point, I'm hoping that the next 4* brings something to really disrupt that meta.

  • TPF Alexis
    TPF Alexis Posts: 3,826 Chairperson of the Boards
    DrDevilDinosaur said:

    I did slack off in the Hulk PvP in order to focus on Simulator, stopping after the 10 CP there. So that's also something to consider. However one of the factors in stopping was the constant barrage of Hulk + Carol/Medusa/Grocket (pick 2), even unboosted, they turned up far tooo frequently. For the effort of wading through so many similar teams, the Rogue cover in Simulator seemed like a better prize. Again, this is an issue that is unrelated to points vs wins, however I will maintain that it's the more serious problem. At this point, I'm hoping that the next 4* brings something to really disrupt that meta.

    I'm pretty sure Carol is always going to be a mainstay in Hulk's PvP, just because it's so hilarious to watch him set off Energy Manipulation multiple times per turn.

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