Progression Reward Changes in Versus Tournaments (7/20/17)

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  • madsalad
    madsalad Posts: 815 Critical Contributor
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    Borstock said:
    sh81 said:

    Borstock said:

    The way this will be tricky is what happens if I get to 900 or so with 32 matches won/played. I want to keep my points for the overall season, but I can't stop playing because I need more wins. So I have to fight matches with my shield down, and I'm going to get clobbered during that time. So to get to 40, it's probably going to cost me points for the overall season. The only way to avoid this is to rush to 40 ASAP and then play for points later.
    As stated, Im far from serious in PVP, but, this would be the case for everyone wouldnt it?

    So nobody would be getting the same points for placement as they used to, but you will still all be competing will you not?  Im sure shield hoping strategies etc will emerge, and that for those playing seriously things will level out much like they were before.

    Id hope so at least.
    I hadn't considered that, but I don't see any inherent flaw in your logic. We'll have to see how it plays out, but I think you're probably right.
    I'm basically looking at this as stretching one PVP's worth of playing into two PVP's worth of playing.  Meaning:  join bracket immediately; grind grind grind to high score (let's say 15-20 wins). Sit unshielded and let the hits comes. Start over again and grind grind grind to high score shield. Hop a few times to get to for wins and toward placement. 

    Hope you don't enjoy free time.
  • Beer40
    Beer40 Posts: 826 Critical Contributor
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    Brigby said:
    madok said:

    Brigby , so each person gets one CP or top 10 all get 15 CP? Or Maybe 1st gets 15 and the rest get 1 because they suck and didn't win.

    @madok All top 10 players would receive an additional 15 CP, on top of the rewards they already receive.
    See y'all in SCL 1  :D
  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,561 Chairperson of the Boards
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    madsalad said:
    Borstock said:
    sh81 said:

    Borstock said:

    The way this will be tricky is what happens if I get to 900 or so with 32 matches won/played. I want to keep my points for the overall season, but I can't stop playing because I need more wins. So I have to fight matches with my shield down, and I'm going to get clobbered during that time. So to get to 40, it's probably going to cost me points for the overall season. The only way to avoid this is to rush to 40 ASAP and then play for points later.
    As stated, Im far from serious in PVP, but, this would be the case for everyone wouldnt it?

    So nobody would be getting the same points for placement as they used to, but you will still all be competing will you not?  Im sure shield hoping strategies etc will emerge, and that for those playing seriously things will level out much like they were before.

    Id hope so at least.
    I hadn't considered that, but I don't see any inherent flaw in your logic. We'll have to see how it plays out, but I think you're probably right.
    I'm basically looking at this as stretching one PVP's worth of playing into two PVP's worth of playing.  Meaning:  join bracket immediately; grind grind grind to high score (let's say 15-20 wins). Sit unshielded and let the hits comes. Start over again and grind grind grind to high score shield. Hop a few times to get to for wins and toward placement. 

    Hope you don't enjoy free time.
    I usually have to play close to that style, anyway, to be honest. I usually jump to 300-400 at the start-ish. Then, I jump to around 600. Then, I hit it one more time to as far as I can go and shield.
  • Wjohnson992
    Wjohnson992 Posts: 175 Tile Toppler
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    madsalad said:
    Borstock said:
    sh81 said:

    Borstock said:

    The way this will be tricky is what happens if I get to 900 or so with 32 matches won/played. I want to keep my points for the overall season, but I can't stop playing because I need more wins. So I have to fight matches with my shield down, and I'm going to get clobbered during that time. So to get to 40, it's probably going to cost me points for the overall season. The only way to avoid this is to rush to 40 ASAP and then play for points later.
    As stated, Im far from serious in PVP, but, this would be the case for everyone wouldnt it?

    So nobody would be getting the same points for placement as they used to, but you will still all be competing will you not?  Im sure shield hoping strategies etc will emerge, and that for those playing seriously things will level out much like they were before.

    Id hope so at least.
    I hadn't considered that, but I don't see any inherent flaw in your logic. We'll have to see how it plays out, but I think you're probably right.
    I'm basically looking at this as stretching one PVP's worth of playing into two PVP's worth of playing.  Meaning:  join bracket immediately; grind grind grind to high score (let's say 15-20 wins). Sit unshielded and let the hits comes. Start over again and grind grind grind to high score shield. Hop a few times to get to for wins and toward placement. 

    Hope you don't enjoy free time.
    PVE will take noticeably less time when SCL scaling becomes a thing.
  • madsalad
    madsalad Posts: 815 Critical Contributor
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    @Brigby

    I don't understand why a large CP reward at the end of a prize-line has to be mutually exclusive to one line or the other.  Why can't we have a CP prize at the end of both Placement and Progression.  If you want to move 15 CP to Top 10 placement, fine, but how about leave 15 (or hell, why not increase it to 25?) at the 1200 mark in the Progression tree, too?  (fine, not 1200 points, but maybe the 40 wins should be for the CP, not a 4* cover).

    Also, as others had said, why is D3 so determined to give 15 CP to Top 10 players in SCL 1-5 when they should not even be spending CP yet? Top 10 placement for those players should not involve a giant load of CP.
  • mags1587
    mags1587 Posts: 1,020 Chairperson of the Boards
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    My reaction to needing 40 wins is based on the teams I have to fight on my climb as a five star roster.  Fighting endless Thanos / Panther teams with a sprinkling of other champed five stars just makes me want to give up on PvP now.  It would be such a slog.  If I could see four star rosters too it wouldn't be as bad. 
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
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    madsalad said:
    @Brigby

    Also, as others had said, why is D3 so determined to give 15 CP to Top 10 players in SCL 1-5 when they should not even be spending CP yet? Top 10 placement for those players should not involve a giant load of CP.
    I refuse to believe they'll give CP in CL1-5.

    CP for placement was only available in CL 7 and 8, I hope it stays this way.

    I'm guessing things will look different once we see the rewards preview.
    With the devs' way with words I'm sure there was something lost in translation between them, Brigby and the forum post.
  • madsalad
    madsalad Posts: 815 Critical Contributor
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    Wjohnson992 said:
    madsalad said:
    Borstock said:
    sh81 said:

    Borstock said:

    The way this will be tricky is what happens if I get to 900 or so with 32 matches won/played. I want to keep my points for the overall season, but I can't stop playing because I need more wins. So I have to fight matches with my shield down, and I'm going to get clobbered during that time. So to get to 40, it's probably going to cost me points for the overall season. The only way to avoid this is to rush to 40 ASAP and then play for points later.
    As stated, Im far from serious in PVP, but, this would be the case for everyone wouldnt it?

    So nobody would be getting the same points for placement as they used to, but you will still all be competing will you not?  Im sure shield hoping strategies etc will emerge, and that for those playing seriously things will level out much like they were before.

    Id hope so at least.
    I hadn't considered that, but I don't see any inherent flaw in your logic. We'll have to see how it plays out, but I think you're probably right.
    I'm basically looking at this as stretching one PVP's worth of playing into two PVP's worth of playing.  Meaning:  join bracket immediately; grind grind grind to high score (let's say 15-20 wins). Sit unshielded and let the hits comes. Start over again and grind grind grind to high score shield. Hop a few times to get to for wins and toward placement. 

    Hope you don't enjoy free time.
    PVE will take noticeably less time when SCL scaling becomes a thing.

  • fmftint
    fmftint Posts: 3,653 Chairperson of the Boards
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    If removing the final command points from progression is such a good idea, how about bringing it over to story mode as well? Final command points removed and awarded to T20 finishers 


  • DreadPirateW
    DreadPirateW Posts: 28 Just Dropped In
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    If you're currently a 1200+ player there are only three possibilities:

    You still get all the rewards and it doesn't take any longer... there are no reasonable circumstances where you get all the rewards in less time, and it's highly unlikely to take any less HP.

    OR

    You still get all the rewards and it takes longer to get them... this is not an improvement.

    OR

    You no longer get all the rewards... this is not an improvement.


    So it can't be said, by any argument from any person, that this is an improvement for this group of players. At best you can say that you're intentionally deciding to screw these players for the benefit of others.

    You would think that D3 would lean towards their more established player base, ones who have likely invested more time and money, over those who have not. This appears to not be the case.

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,561 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Punter1 said:

    10 pages in - so maybe missed this as I skipped some of the discussion.  In a system where a min of 38 pts/win is what most players look for in PVP the win count at the top end of the scale seems to be pushed too high.  I don't know why the later rewards skew so far from that total.  

    If you're getting better than 38pts, it should take at most 24 fights to hit 900, if the climb is good and you find some 60pt matches then quite a few less.  Table below shows the difference.  


    I'd argue that it looks good until around 725/800 reward mark, then jumps too quickly.  At most the win count should be 10 above the 38 pt match win count.  Based on the above I think 30 wins for 900 is reasonable, that's avg of 30pt matches, which allows for some hits.  

    You're getting attacked in there, too.
  • Meander
    Meander Posts: 267 Mover and Shaker
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    fmftint said:
    If removing the final command points from progression is such a good idea, how about bringing it over to story mode as well? Final command points removed and awarded to T20 finishers 


    Please don't give them any ideas
  • Starfury
    Starfury Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
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    sh81 said:
    In PVE you usually play around 150 for a 4 star.

    9 nodes x 7 clears is 63 clears which is 1 sub, and its not normally until somewhere through day 2 to 3 the 4 star comes up from progression.

    To make a 4* from placement you need to play optimally for the entirety of the event, so 60+ clears directly before and after the opening of a sub.  The Hulk is a 7 day event, at the moment I am on course for one Miles Morales cover, at 441 clears, all at a prescribed time, in intensive chunks.
    4* PvE progression is 2 clears each sub.
    So PvE requires on average about 20 matches a day, with 14 of them being moderately difficult.

    So in a week:
    PvE: 120 - 140 matches for 2 4* covers, all of them against teams weaker than you, with a third of the matches being against trashmobs
    PvP: 120 matches for 3 4* covers, with a considerable amount of matches against teams of equal strength and a maximum of 9 seed teams.

    Considering the difficulty of the fights, PvE is actually less effort per 4* cover.
  • Nepenthe
    Nepenthe Posts: 283 Mover and Shaker
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    I like the general idea, but 40 matches for the 4* sounds like a lot more than it takes to get to 900 now.  If they end up keeping this basic setup for progression, I'd say move the 4* down to 30 wins and put the 15 CP back on the progression side at 40 wins.

    But that's just my first impression. We'll see how the test goes.
  • alaeth
    alaeth Posts: 446 Mover and Shaker
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    Borstock said:
    You're getting attacked in there, too.
    If you're getting attacked in competitive PvP before 900, you're doing it wrong.

    1. climb to "float point" (typically 400 pts) - in the current model, the risk vs reward makes you an unappealing target... so you are unlikely to be hit

    2. When time permits, climb to your first shield point (800, 900, or higher). 5* rosters typically don't even shield until they're well over 1200.

    3. shield hop to preserve your points, hitting only targets that are 60+ points to make it "worth it" to break your shield and expose yourself.



    The concept of slow climbing to 1200 is not realistic.  People will see you out, and you will get hit (as you suggest).  That's why shields exist.  Shield hopping is used by every single top 10 player in scl6, 7, and 8.


    In the new model, the moment you appear you'll be attacked because points are irrelevant (very few ppl with be able to hit top 10 finish, so most will just rush for 40 fights... doesn't matter if you're worth 1 pt or 75.  In the current model, point-based progression actively discourages hitting low scores... the reward isn't worth the risk.  In the new model (assuming no MMR changes), those poor 2* and 3* rosters I see are going to be annihilated.
  • Punter1
    Punter1 Posts: 722 Critical Contributor
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    Borstock said:
    Punter1 said:

    10 pages in - so maybe missed this as I skipped some of the discussion.  In a system where a min of 38 pts/win is what most players look for in PVP the win count at the top end of the scale seems to be pushed too high.  I don't know why the later rewards skew so far from that total.  

    If you're getting better than 38pts, it should take at most 24 fights to hit 900, if the climb is good and you find some 60pt matches then quite a few less.  Table below shows the difference.  


    I'd argue that it looks good until around 725/800 reward mark, then jumps too quickly.  At most the win count should be 10 above the 38 pt match win count.  Based on the above I think 30 wins for 900 is reasonable, that's avg of 30pt matches, which allows for some hits.  

    You're getting attacked in there, too.

    Sure attacked here and there, but not 16 fights worth of losses.  Under 900 the points lost aren't equal to the gain I believe, so early losses may only put you back 10-15pts.  Plus the 24 fights count is at 38pts/fight.  It's usually not hard to find 50-60pt matches early in a climb.

    I'm ok with a slightly higher fight count to 900 to simulate losses, but not 16 fights more.  I'm going to count the number of wins it takes to hit 900 in Vulture. 

  • elvy75
    elvy75 Posts: 225 Tile Toppler
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    Lets talk about time commitment here. I usually play pvp for aboout 2 hr total, scoring over 1200 points, which makes it around 360 minutes a week, which comes to average of 51.5 minutes/day. Since average match by d3 own statement should last around 5 minutes, 40*5=200 minutes just to have 900 points. This comes to 600 minutes a week, or 85.7 minutes/day. The new system means roughly 34.2 minutes more average play time for less rewards!!! And this is just pvp, where is at least 90 minutes for pve every day, 15 minutes for ddq and average of 40 matches/season for shield simulator (40*5=200, which comes to 10 minutes/day). So in the end cumulative time is 51.5+90+15+10= 166.5 - already almost 3 whole hours, and when you add those 34 minutes is way above. 


  • Beer40
    Beer40 Posts: 826 Critical Contributor
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    Just had a quick thought and wanted to share it with the people thinking they've been targeted:

    You are definitely going to be targeted now. We all are. As for double, triple, quadruple taps? Yep, its coming. I'm hitting the easiest target I see out of the 3. If the que gives me the same easy target 6 times in a row then that's what the storm provided.

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