Progression Reward Changes in Versus Tournaments (7/20/17)

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  • lokiagentofhotness
    lokiagentofhotness Posts: 192 Tile Toppler
    alaeth said:
    Borstock said:
    You're getting attacked in there, too.
    If you're getting attacked in competitive PvP before 900, you're doing it wrong.

    1. climb to "float point" (typically 400 pts) - in the current model, the risk vs reward makes you an unappealing target... so you are unlikely to be hit

    2. When time permits, climb to your first shield point (800, 900, or higher). 5* rosters typically don't even shield until they're well over 1200.

    3. shield hop to preserve your points, hitting only targets that are 60+ points to make it "worth it" to break your shield and expose yourself.



    The concept of slow climbing to 1200 is not realistic.  People will see you out, and you will get hit (as you suggest).  That's why shields exist.  Shield hopping is used by every single top 10 player in scl6, 7, and 8.


    In the new model, the moment you appear you'll be attacked because points are irrelevant (very few ppl with be able to hit top 10 finish, so most will just rush for 40 fights... doesn't matter if you're worth 1 pt or 75.  In the current model, point-based progression actively discourages hitting low scores... the reward isn't worth the risk.  In the new model (assuming no MMR changes), those poor 2* and 3* rosters I see are going to be annihilated.
  • lokiagentofhotness
    lokiagentofhotness Posts: 192 Tile Toppler
    Sorry...how do I delete a post? I can't seem to do it.

    Anyway I have changed my mind this new PVP system sounds AWESOME. Points don't matter, only hits do. 
  • Punishu777
    Punishu777 Posts: 31 Just Dropped In
    Borstock said:
    Honestly, it's starting to sound more and more to me as if the devs are trying to make you people all play like the people with a similar experience to the one I've had.
    Trust me @Borstock for those of us with 1100+ days in who have been fighting in PvP since hulk bombing was the way to win, we have paid our dues and spent our time playing a huge number of matches for minimal rewards. 
  • chitown021
    chitown021 Posts: 15 Just Dropped In
    Finally! I've been begging for this forever! I don't give a **** at this point about finishing in first place since I'm not powerful enough to hold my spot, nor rich enough to shield myself. I just want the progression rewards. Right now I play long enough to get to 400 and the hero points, then I quit because I tread water after that. I lose points faster than I can gain so I can't get to the next reward.
  • Jaedenkaal
    Jaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    I think the highest score I've ever gotten (and not held, even) in PVP is 575, and I don't do that very often. So this change would seem to benefit me, if I want it to.

    That being said, I'd be curious to see how this affects or is affected by MMR. What kind of opponents will I face? How will I be matched up? Still based on points? Or now based on wins?

    If by points still, then it would seem to be in everyone's best interest to accumulate wins with as few points as possible, and then at the end make points in as few wins as possible. Probably still won't impact me much, but I can imagine that it will seriously affect others.

    I won't boycott, though. They'll make their decision either way, and there's no chance that so many people will boycott that they won't get enough data. Might as well give them more actual data, as well as an informed opinion on the after-the-fact feedback.
  • Punter1
    Punter1 Posts: 729 Critical Contributor
    edited July 2017
    Did anyone point out that this is an off season event with XFW has the 900pt reward?  I know he's not ridiculously terrible, but I really don't see this as a good representation of a regular 900pt push.  I really don't think I want to do 40 fights to get an XFW cover, I will do 900pts though.
  • Dragon_Nexus
    Dragon_Nexus Posts: 3,701 Chairperson of the Boards
    Wow...only just noticed this.
    I like the idea in theory. The proof will be in the playing, I guess. My worry so far is I have *no* idea how many matches I win while getting up to 800+ like I currently do. I have in my head it's around 20 or something.

    I think the tricky part is going to be trying to balance wins and points. I mean, it would suck having a good score at 36 wins and having to win 4 more times but then being whacked back down 100 points while getting those wins when you could have just shielded and got good placement instead.

    That said...placement is still kinda bogus in PvP land. Getting a really good score in CL8 still only nets you a handful of 3*s.

    Still, I'm optimistic. I play PvP primarily for progress rewards anyway. I try to get to 900 for that 4* cover and rarely get it these days. If this can make it easier, or at least attainable through sheer work load, then I'm all for it.

    Who knows, by eliminating the idea of "Get to 575 for the CP then quit" we might see the points open up WAY more. Higher scoring might be much easier since people will be fighting and winning more to get the higher rewards.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    chitown021 said:
    Finally! I've been begging for this forever! I don't give a tinykitty at this point about finishing in first place since I'm not powerful enough to hold my spot, nor rich enough to shield myself. I just want the progression rewards. Right now I play long enough to get to 400 and the hero points, then I quit because I tread water after that. I lose points faster than I can gain so I can't get to the next reward.
    But you arent gettibg the progression rewards.  You are getting most of the progression rewards, but you are missing out on the single best prpgression reward: cp.  And you have to play more matches than ever to get less than before.  

    In principle making the progression rewards more accessible is great.  In implementation though, this change makes life much worse for a lot of players.
  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,733 Chairperson of the Boards
    Punishu777 said:
    Borstock said:
    Honestly, it's starting to sound more and more to me as if the devs are trying to make you people all play like the people with a similar experience to the one I've had.
    Trust me @Borstock for those of us with 1100+ days in who have been fighting in PvP since hulk bombing was the way to win, we have paid our dues and spent our time playing a huge number of matches for minimal rewards. 
    I mean, I'm on day 800.
  • madok
    madok Posts: 905 Critical Contributor
    Pinko McFly said:
    Asides from the CP nerf, this change could be made totally acceptable to all level of players with one simple change, make it either/or for each level of prizes.
    4* cover : 40 wins or 900 points, whichever comes first.

    Using this mentality the CP could be put in at 50 wins or 1200.

    This gives the low level players shots at the rewards if they want to grind it. Top level players still have benefit from being top level and are not presented with a grind.

    @Brigby

    This x 1000. Instead of changing the system from A to B expand the system to be A AND B. Make it so either approach is viable and you solve the problems folks have outlined.

    As a programmer myself, unless they have seriously coded themselves into a corner this should be pretty simple since you are still tracking both #s.
  • chitown021
    chitown021 Posts: 15 Just Dropped In
    Vhailorx said:
    chitown021 said:
    Finally! I've been begging for this forever! I don't give a tinykitty at this point about finishing in first place since I'm not powerful enough to hold my spot, nor rich enough to shield myself. I just want the progression rewards. Right now I play long enough to get to 400 and the hero points, then I quit because I tread water after that. I lose points faster than I can gain so I can't get to the next reward.
    But you arent gettibg the progression rewards.  You are getting most of the progression rewards, but you are missing out on the single best prpgression reward: cp.  And you have to play more matches than ever to get less than before.  

    In principle making the progression rewards more accessible is great.  In implementation though, this change makes life much worse for a lot of players.
    That's a good point. Maybe if they tweak the# of fights as they go. It's a step in the right direction though. I guess a better way would be to have two "pools" of points. Progression & Rank. Keep the rank pool as it is now, but the progression can't go backwards. So if I've earned 400 points in battle my progression pool stays there but my rank total is only 250 because I've been beaten several times.
  • Arix90
    Arix90 Posts: 244 Tile Toppler
    Should change the reward to iceman to get more testers
  • Slothkins
    Slothkins Posts: 58 Match Maker
    This is an excellent change, and I will actually start playing PvP if it becomes permanent. I expect it will be a benefit to the vast majority of the player base who doesn't use line to coordinate their play, or who don't even know that the option exists. 
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    Slothkins said:
    This is an excellent change, and I will actually start playing PvP if it becomes permanent. I expect it will be a benefit to the vast majority of the player base who doesn't use line to coordinate their play, or who don't even know that the option exists. 
    There are lots of 4* players who don't use line but do climb to 800-900 or so every event (line coordination isnt really useful until one gets oast 900).  Even a few doughty 3* players still do this.

    Those players now need to win approximately 2x as many pvp matches to get the same level of rewards.  Majority of the playerbase?  Probably not even close.  Significabt portion if dedicated veterans who really enjoy and suppprt the game and its community?  Absolutely!
  • DreadPirateW
    DreadPirateW Posts: 28 Just Dropped In
    edited July 2017
    I see no option but to stop trying for the 15CP, no longer use health packs or shields as they won't be necessary, hoard the HP to use on slots and tokens, and never have to spend money on this game again.

    I don't see how this is a win for them financially. Will anyone be spending more as a result of this change? I suppose people who join late to try to still get placement may need to use health packs to get to their 40 wins in time... but those people already spend many hundreds on shields in a typical event.


  • acescracked
    acescracked Posts: 1,197 Chairperson of the Boards
    Borstock said:
    Punter1 said:

    10 pages in - so maybe missed this as I skipped some of the discussion.  In a system where a min of 38 pts/win is what most players look for in PVP the win count at the top end of the scale seems to be pushed too high.  I don't know why the later rewards skew so far from that total.  

    If you're getting better than 38pts, it should take at most 24 fights to hit 900, if the climb is good and you find some 60pt matches then quite a few less.  Table below shows the difference.  


    I'd argue that it looks good until around 725/800 reward mark, then jumps too quickly.  At most the win count should be 10 above the 38 pt match win count.  Based on the above I think 30 wins for 900 is reasonable, that's avg of 30pt matches, which allows for some hits.  

    You're getting attacked in there, too.
    My climb from ~200 to 1568 in Blind Justice was ~90% 75 point matches with one hit for -75.

    The other 10% were 55 to 65 point matches. 
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    Wow...only just noticed this.
    I like the idea in theory. The proof will be in the playing, I guess. My worry so far is I have *no* idea how many matches I win while getting up to 800+ like I currently do. I have in my head it's around 20 or something.

    I think the tricky part is going to be trying to balance wins and points. I mean, it would suck having a good score at 36 wins and having to win 4 more times but then being whacked back down 100 points while getting those wins when you could have just shielded and got good placement instead.

    That said...placement is still kinda bogus in PvP land. Getting a really good score in CL8 still only nets you a handful of 3*s.

    Still, I'm optimistic. I play PvP primarily for progress rewards anyway. I try to get to 900 for that 4* cover and rarely get it these days. If this can make it easier, or at least attainable through sheer work load, then I'm all for it.

    Who knows, by eliminating the idea of "Get to 575 for the CP then quit" we might see the points open up WAY more. Higher scoring might be much easier since people will be fighting and winning more to get the higher rewards.
    I think the problem on the forum is twofold, people hate change, and the devs routinely make things worse while trying to make things better.

    With that said, i think you may be on to something. If participation is increased by 3* and 4* players above 575, that might mitigate some of the concerns the mmr crowd is pointing out.

    Now, if they would institute some of the good ideas in this thread, we would be even better off.  If it weren't such a daunting task, I'd make a fresh post accumulating all the pros and cons brought up across 14 pages
  • Nepenthe
    Nepenthe Posts: 283 Mover and Shaker
    madok said:
    Pinko McFly said:
    Asides from the CP nerf, this change could be made totally acceptable to all level of players with one simple change, make it either/or for each level of prizes.
    4* cover : 40 wins or 900 points, whichever comes first.

    Using this mentality the CP could be put in at 50 wins or 1200.

    This gives the low level players shots at the rewards if they want to grind it. Top level players still have benefit from being top level and are not presented with a grind.

    @Brigby

    This x 1000. Instead of changing the system from A to B expand the system to be A AND B. Make it so either approach is viable and you solve the problems folks have outlined.

    As a programmer myself, unless they have seriously coded themselves into a corner this should be pretty simple since you are still tracking both #s.
    A lot of the past changes that have led to complaints have been along the lines of solving one problem but introducing a different problem.  Making the progression rewards either/or "whichever comes first" like this suggestion is the perfect answer. It solves the problem without hurting players who are already able to get progression in the current system!
  • mpqr7
    mpqr7 Posts: 2,642 Chairperson of the Boards
    aesthetocyst said:
    Vhailorx said ... this change makes life much worse for a lot of players.
    Making life better for this player.

    Devs, please make this change permanent immediately. Make it even more blundering while you're at it. I have faith in you.
    aesth [ @aesthetocyst ]... it's been a minute. I figured you had given up. So this update is what it took to bring you back to the message boards?

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