Progression Reward Changes in Versus Tournaments (7/20/17)

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  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    Bowgentle said:
    sh81 said:


    The PVP changes appear to rather negatively effect the 5* rosters.  But guess what?  The PVE testing screws absolutely everyone EXCEPT the 5* rosters.  Swings and roundabouts...
    Yeah, only we haven't heard about a new test, let alone an implementation of PVE changes for weeks, so 5* rosters are still screwed in PVE.

    Instead of finally rolling out the PVE changes they're coming up with this abomination.
    My suspicion is they want to test both at once and release them both at the same time.  In which case 5*s will probably probably shift focus to PvE if this is as bad as they are fearing.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    Punter1 said:

    10 pages in - so maybe missed this as I skipped some of the discussion.  In a system where a min of 38 pts/win is what most players look for in PVP the win count at the top end of the scale seems to be pushed too high.  I don't know why the later rewards skew so far from that total.  

    If you're getting better than 38pts, it should take at most 24 fights to hit 900, if the climb is good and you find some 60pt matches then quite a few less.  Table below shows the difference.  


    I'd argue that it looks good until around 725/800 reward mark, then jumps too quickly.  At most the win count should be 10 above the 38 pt match win count.  Based on the above I think 30 wins for 900 is reasonable, that's avg of 30pt matches, which allows for some hits.  

    See bolded.

    This is only true if you never get attacked (lol) or if you shield a lot, at least 2 if not 3 times.  For people who that isn't the case it can easily take 30-40 to get 900 even with only hitting high value targets.  Good news is with this change if you know you won't get or don't care about placement you can now just get 40 low ones and get it much quickier and easier with no backsliding.
  • Beer40
    Beer40 Posts: 826 Critical Contributor
    Bryan Lambert said:
    I wonder if the devs will look at this thread and realize they've somehow built one game mode that provides dozens of different, almost mtually exclusivwe experiences for end users based on everything from what time they play to who they talk to while they're playing. That'd keep me up at night for sure.
    When you put it in that context, it actually seems what they've done is pretty impressive.
  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,744 Chairperson of the Boards
    acescracked said:
    Borstock said:
    Punter1 said:

    10 pages in - so maybe missed this as I skipped some of the discussion.  In a system where a min of 38 pts/win is what most players look for in PVP the win count at the top end of the scale seems to be pushed too high.  I don't know why the later rewards skew so far from that total.  

    If you're getting better than 38pts, it should take at most 24 fights to hit 900, if the climb is good and you find some 60pt matches then quite a few less.  Table below shows the difference.  


    I'd argue that it looks good until around 725/800 reward mark, then jumps too quickly.  At most the win count should be 10 above the 38 pt match win count.  Based on the above I think 30 wins for 900 is reasonable, that's avg of 30pt matches, which allows for some hits.  

    You're getting attacked in there, too.
    My climb from ~200 to 1568 in Blind Justice was ~90% 75 point matches with one hit for -75.

    The other 10% were 55 to 65 point matches. 
    I mean, clearly there are many others like you who have the exact same experience. So, I don't doubt this is possible and even common. But there have only ever been 2 scenarios when I was able to queue up a 60-70pt match:

    1: When I hit once and then not again for a while, putting myself in essentially what amounts to a "tied for last", allowing others to lap me a few times so I can take big chunks at a time.

    2: Every once in a blue moon, I'll be at around 850 or so, desperately cycling through the same 8-20 pt matchups over and over, and I'll draw a 5* player completely out of the blue.

    Blind Justice, right now, I'm shielded at 914, #24 overall. The three matchups I have are:
    1: 371 Rhulk, 381 DD, 383 Cap Marvel worth 16 pts
    2: 343 Rhulk, 356 DD, 377 Cap Marvel worth 10 pts
    3: 392 Rhulk, 310 DD, 399 Cap Marvel worth 18 pts

    How can I attack that with 4 hours to go?

    Junkyard Wars, right now, I'm at 332, #15 overall. The three matchups I have are:
    1: 263 Agent Venom, 167 Vulture, 274 Medusa worth 19 pts
    2: 369 CD, 167 Vulture, 367 Wasp worth 33 pts
    3: 343 XWolverine, 167 Vulture, 291 D3adpool worth 43 pts

    When I skip matches, I can't get a single matchup worth more than that third one.

    So, I guess I'm in the wrong slice or something, but yeah... I have never seen the matchups you folks are talking about.
  • GurlBYE
    GurlBYE Posts: 1,218 Chairperson of the Boards
    Well it's because you don't get those matches without controlling it a bit more
  • BoyWonder1914
    BoyWonder1914 Posts: 884 Critical Contributor
    I'm sure this is great for newer players and 2-3 star rosters that usually never bother past 300 or 575, but for the more PVP-savvy folks this is going to suck having to essentially double your efforts for the same rewards. 

    MMR - You're probably still going to have to face similar level opponents that you always have been facing, you'll just now have to face even more of them. Tired of fighting CM4/RHulk? Ice-Buster? Panther-Thanos? TOO BAD!

    "Scrub Teams" - People say, "you can just club the lower level teams for easy points!" Well guess what, you can still get hit and lose points from your total score, so all "easy" teams you bounced off did nothing but open you up for the sharks in the water that like to hit high point targets. That is, if you're even lucky enough to find these teams to begin with. 
  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,744 Chairperson of the Boards
    GurlBYE said:
    Well it's because you don't get those matches without controlling it a bit more
    Perhaps the devs are trying to eliminate that concern from the game.
  • Nighthawk81
    Nighthawk81 Posts: 166 Tile Toppler
    I stopped reading at Page 6 but still wanted to comment on Brigby's "test" comment on page 4 or so. Please stop running tests when you guys won't implement a test from before. We have been asking for scaling based on SCL and it still hasn't been implemented.
  • Jaedenkaal
    Jaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    Nighthawk81 said:
    I stopped reading at Page 6 but still wanted to comment on Brigby's "test" comment on page 4 or so. Please stop running tests when you guys won't implement a test from before. We have been asking for scaling based on SCL and it still hasn't been implemented.
    What? Why would you force them to commit to implementing every test they do before moving on to the next one? What if they try something and it's terrible? Why not let them move on?
  • Maceo511
    Maceo511 Posts: 67 Match Maker
    Maybe they should tighten up MMR so the easy fights won't be there, and the cyber bullying could cease, make us earn our wins
  • Punter1
    Punter1 Posts: 729 Critical Contributor
    broll said:
    Punter1 said:

    10 pages in - so maybe missed this as I skipped some of the discussion.  In a system where a min of 38 pts/win is what most players look for in PVP the win count at the top end of the scale seems to be pushed too high.  I don't know why the later rewards skew so far from that total.  

    If you're getting better than 38pts, it should take at most 24 fights to hit 900, if the climb is good and you find some 60pt matches then quite a few less.  Table below shows the difference.  


    I'd argue that it looks good until around 725/800 reward mark, then jumps too quickly.  At most the win count should be 10 above the 38 pt match win count.  Based on the above I think 30 wins for 900 is reasonable, that's avg of 30pt matches, which allows for some hits.  

    See bolded.

    This is only true if you never get attacked (lol) or if you shield a lot, at least 2 if not 3 times.  For people who that isn't the case it can easily take 30-40 to get 900 even with only hitting high value targets.  Good news is with this change if you know you won't get or don't care about placement you can now just get 40 low ones and get it much quickier and easier with no backsliding.


    My roster is pretty close to yours.  Roster Linky. 

    I switched my play style a few months back.  I used to climb late and would start to see lots of hits which was frustrating.  I moved to climbing early and rarely play in the last 8 hrs and never in the last 3.  I usually use 2 24hr shields, sometimes just one and have a recent average of 1050 which is an easy top 25 in CL7.

    The earlier climbs mean I rarely see hits prior to 800.  I usually start by getting to 400ish and float.  Sure I may get a few hits here and there, but lose at most 50-60 pts, which is 1 fight back.  I do a few fights after that to 600ish, then find a concentrated time to push to 1st # at 800+, if I'm lucky with what I can find I can get to 900+.  I do use Line which helps on the last match or 2 to q up the 60pt matches to safely hop and hit 1000+.   This is all done with way less than 40 matches.

    I think most like the idea of moving to a fixed prog with no back sliding, but for most players it shouldn't take 40 fights to hit 900.  I really think 30 is a better number.  It's a fair compromise as you do have to put in a bit more work for guaranteed results. 

  • hodayathink
    hodayathink Posts: 528 Critical Contributor
    madok said:
    Pinko McFly said:
    Asides from the CP nerf, this change could be made totally acceptable to all level of players with one simple change, make it either/or for each level of prizes.
    4* cover : 40 wins or 900 points, whichever comes first.

    Using this mentality the CP could be put in at 50 wins or 1200.

    This gives the low level players shots at the rewards if they want to grind it. Top level players still have benefit from being top level and are not presented with a grind.

    @Brigby

    This x 1000. Instead of changing the system from A to B expand the system to be A AND B. Make it so either approach is viable and you solve the problems folks have outlined.

    As a programmer myself, unless they have seriously coded themselves into a corner this should be pretty simple since you are still tracking both #s.
    Knowing this game and their general coding skills, the most likely outcome of them attempting this is ending up either giving out the rewards when they hit both, or not giving them out at all.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    stewbacca said:
    I'm an almost 3 year player with 10+ 5* champs.. and personally I find this almost a better change than pve scaling. I'm in alliance of everyone with 2.5 years in, and this change has everyone excited to play PvP again.   I've been asking for this since I started playing.. you want to compete for final placement, have fun.. But I don't waste hp shield hopping and it's a pita going up to 899 and then getting hit 6 times while playing..  this is a most welcome change.. it will allow me to play at my leisure.  Instead of trying to time that 3 hour window at the end.. or not starting the event until 11 pm when retaliations die down.  If like to know what metrics they are using to seem this test a success so I can play it exactly as they need to see it..  
    Do you not care about lost cp?  Or do you reliably finish in the top 10, and so are confident that you will keep getting it?  And how do you feel about going from 25-30 matches per event to 40+?
  • Khanwulf
    Khanwulf Posts: 103 Tile Toppler
    stewbacca said:
    I'm an almost 3 year player with 10+ 5* champs.. and personally I find this almost a better change than pve scaling. I'm in alliance of everyone with 2.5 years in, and this change has everyone excited to play PvP again.   I've been asking for this since I started playing.. you want to compete for final placement, have fun.. But I don't waste hp shield hopping and it's a pita going up to 899 and then getting hit 6 times while playing..  this is a most welcome change.. it will allow me to play at my leisure.  Instead of trying to time that 3 hour window at the end.. or not starting the event until 11 pm when retaliations die down.  If like to know what metrics they are using to seem this test a success so I can play it exactly as they need to see it..  
    Agreed! Though, changing PvE so it no longer crushes you for leveling your heroes is also a good direction: they just need to not penalize income rates at the same time!

    And that's what the Versus changes are intended to address: income rates and assumptions. There is a certain amount of maximally possible rewards in MPQ for any given time slice (a season, say), and the Devs have to control for both players that respond to the maximum, and those who are at best average (like myself). I view progression as a representation of "average" play: you've completed the content, here's your prize. 

    So the question becomes time invested for average rewards. This, the Devs are still working on and not fast enough, sadly. PvE now takes more time than it should for the rewards (though the upper limit was increased), and Versus will be in the same situation. They need to dial back on that time requirement in MPQ.

    Versus, since it was implemented, has been a source of massive frustration by soft-gating content through player hits. Negative points are a horrible mal-incentive to play and this change will draw many, MANY more players in Versus who normally can't be arsed to put up with it. Myself included.

    --Khanwulf
  • crackninja
    crackninja Posts: 444 Mover and Shaker
    stewbacca said:
    In addition this will let me play with my whole roster again.. Since I don't care who hits my team back.. powerful enough to win the match, to weak to defend with..  will let me experiment more with different teams.. 
    I was thinking about that too, I always find it annoying that playing with fun teams opens myself up to attack, this solves that concern for me.

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