Update to Progression Rewards in Story Events (5/18/17)
Comments
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To put this comment in perspective, I normally do 5/6 clears so this change is a positive for me. However, I completely agree with previous comments about the placement of CP rewards. Its very back end heavy. (insert yo momma joke)
Personally I liked them peppered about a bit as before.
On this plus side these changes might tempt those dropping down to CL7 back to CL8, which would be a positive.
The flow of 200iso->200iso->200iso is a little boring also!4 -
@Daiches that answer from Brigby was in response to a question about 48-hour subs.Daiches said:
Ehm.. That's not what said in the announcement.Brigby said:@St_Bernadus
If you choose to wait until the points for the 5th clear are full, then you only need to complete each node's 5th clear to hit max progression. If you don't feel like waiting, then you can immediately full clear all nodes to hit max progression.0 -
It's all been said already, but I have to add my complaint to the list. These are terrible changes for the casual PVE player. My CP income has taken a huge hit because of how backloaded the progression rewards are. I could casually play 1 or 2 clears and walk away with 10 CP, plus whatever I was lucky enough to get through the intercepts. Now I have to bust my butt for 8? (This is based on The Hunt, of course, but I assume distribution will be similar for other events.) I remember being very please with the initial change from 25 CP for top progression to the 5/5/15 system we just walked away from. I'm in a PVP alliance, and we're all in agreement this is a step backward for anything but full clears. Please consider going back to something similar in terms of CP distribution! @Brigby5
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And we're back around to the issue of how people don't always have time or energy for 'just' another 30 minutes a sub.Bowgentle said:nick_chicane said:Missing the 25cp makes the 5 day event a waste of my time. So yes, it is important to know what we have to do to get it.
Then just do 5 clears to be safe?
How dismissive. Just because you're not concerned doesn't mean other people are overreacting to be concerned.Bowgentle said:Why not just play the current event and see if you can easily make final prog with your normal playstyle? If you can't, adjust next event. Worst case you miss the 25 CP this PVE and can adjust for the next one. Missing 25 CP once isn't going to kill you.
Anyway, that is far from the 'worst case' involved. Worst case is that you can't adjust your playstyle to make final prog. It doesn't really matter why that'd be the case. Maybe it's because you simply can't cut out the time every day, something you were maybe working around by doing more (6 clears) on some days so that you could do less (no clears) on other days. Maybe it's because this new requirement literally makes it impossible for as many top competitors to get both placement and progression rewards (which is only speaking of a very small percent of the player base but it's the part of the percent most dedicated to this game). Maybe it's because without the 4* essential it's literally impossible to get full progression (that's unclear atm but I guess we'll find out!). Maybe it's for another reason not brought up already in this thread.
We're theorycrafting because, as you put it, the dev is 'very, very bad with words'. That's pretty unacceptable for a business nor something we, as consumers, need necessarily blasely accept the way you clearly have, but since it's true theorycrafting is what we do to try to figure out the answer for ourselves.4 -
And what if it had turned out to have required 6? These things need to be clear prior to events starting.Bowgentle said:nick_chicane said:Missing the 25cp makes the 5 day event a waste of my time. So yes, it is important to know what we have to do to get it.
Then just do 5 clears to be safe?1 -
Ok so I'm confused about the new clearing policy starting with The HUNT.
First leg I did everything 6 times, where the 5th and 6th clear was done just right after the 4th so no waiting. I didn't have gamora rostered on the 1st leg. 2nd leg of the event - 48hr node. I did 5 clears on each node where the 5th was at almost full points cause I had the luxury to wait without having to rush and I had gamora rostered. I didn't have time for the 6th clear. Now the 3rd leg started and I'm at 33k points in progression where as the top is at 60k+ and I don't see how I'm going to get the top progression reward at 55k so something is wrong. It was mentioned that you could do 5 clears (the 5th being at full points) or 5th and 6th without waiting to get to top progression.
I'm not seeing it. Can anyone explain this? Are we having another Enemy of the State moment when they didn't do the math right?0 -
They've been bad with words since the game started and it has gotten worse over the last three years.Saeva said:
We're theorycrafting because, as you put it, the dev is 'very, very bad with words'. That's pretty unacceptable for a business nor something we, as consumers, need necessarily blasely accept the way you clearly have, but since it's true theorycrafting is what we do to try to figure out the answer for ourselves.
This is not going to change.
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escart85 said:Ok so I'm confused about the new clearing policy starting with The HUNT.
First leg I did everything 6 times, where the 5th and 6th clear was done just right after the 4th so no waiting. I didn't have gamora rostered on the 1st leg. 2nd leg of the event - 48hr node. I did 5 clears on each node where the 5th was at almost full points cause I had the luxury to wait without having to rush and I had gamora rostered. I didn't have time for the 6th clear. Now the 3rd leg started and I'm at 33k points in progression where as the top is at 60k+ and I don't see how I'm going to get the top progression reward at 55k so something is wrong. It was mentioned that you could do 5 clears (the 5th being at full points) or 5th and 6th without waiting to get to top progression.
I'm not seeing it. Can anyone explain this? Are we having another Enemy of the State moment when they didn't do the math right?
5 clears assumes that you have all the essentials.
Missing Gamora on day 1 means you'll have to clear more on the following days.1 -
(I previously commented here, with my initial reaction to the increase of clears for full progression and what I would've liked to see in regards of distribution of rewards)
Thinking on this change more makes me feel that the change was done because the numbers of people playing events drops off after the 4 star reward significantly and that the players who played through overshot final progression by a lot (because they were largely aiming for placement).
So wanting players to play longer, since time = money, means shifting the 4 star to four clears on all nodes on all days rather than the three-ish clears on all nodes per day or playing ~75% of the event previously required.
With that perspective it seems a bit misleading (and therefore breeds distrust amongst the playerbase) to say it's about extending and increasing rewards, when it's really about increasing play time and engagement. Which is an entirely reasonable objective for 7 day events, which did have the problem of a lot of players dropping out on day 5 and 6 as they received the cover. I may not be a fan of the increased requirement of clears, nor of backloading the rewards, but making 7 day events more rewarding and increasing engagement in those last two days is something I completely understand and agree with.But for 3 and 4 day events especially, I'm not convinced aiming to increase player engagement by shifting the goalposts does so evenly. The players who want the cover will play a bit more, the people aiming for for placement get more stuff but in theory play the same amount, and the people who only wanted CP will have to look at their priorities and decide whether a cover is enough or if they might as well try to go for placement.
Not to mention that players who are missing essential characters will find it a lot harder to achieve full progression with the new reward structure, or that it now seems impossible for lower Clearance Levels to reach full progression.
So if this change was to encourage extra play from people who only played to the cover, why not switch the CP and cover rewards around in the previous reward structure, so that final progression rewarded the specific cover? The dev team obviously considers a specific cover to be high value, given the cost required to purchase it either with CP or through the Heroes for Hire store. Or is the net gain of play time with this new structure worth more than what a simple switcheroo would offer?0 -
Dunno if anyone is really reading this at this point, other than back and forth about whether the effort is worth it/possible/etc. But here is something I have not really seen mentioned: Perceived fairness.
Months ago, "cupcakes" were eliminated (basically) in PVP. Some players (forum posters) saw cupcakes as unfair, and felt they were shut out of points and goals by their time limitations and not being part of Line groups. (Please don't turn this into a debate about whether or not it truly helped all players, was unfair, etc. The point here is the perception, not the fact.) PVP has many problems, but now there is less perception of unfairness.
For PVE, It is well known (at least among forum users and high-end players) that waiting to join a bracket can result in higher placement, and easier cover acquirement for some players. Does this seem fair to the average player? (I argue no, if you can't time your entry to an event to just the right time, it definitely seems unfair.) And yes, there has always been the risk of losing out on progression rewards for placement. The new system very obviously increases this risk, possibly to the point of it being impossible to hit progression when joining late (as pointed out already with some nice math).
So this change, which pushes more players to join sooner, increases perceived fairness. I want to stress PERCEIVED here. If you think that most players are joining at the same time as you, then you think that you have an equal shot of getting rewards.
Yes, it increases competitiveness too. Which I think developers want, as it probably leads to resource consumption (HP for shields, iso for boosts etc).
More players thinking the system is fair to them, makes them more likely to play. More players mean more payers. Gaming the system, while engaging and making the game more interesting, can be seen by less competitive players as unfair and discourage them.
Does it suck that we have more time requirements? Yes. I hope they find a different solution. But I wanted to bring up a problem that developers may see that few if any forum users would view as a problem - bracket sniping is probably behavior that developers don't really like and probably want to discourage.
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Just make the current bracket information show up in game so that you don't have to coordinate or get lucky to jump in a fresh bracket.1
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Based on my rough calculations it basically means I have to grind the nodes to 1 which at this point makes me want to stop playing this event and just chill because I don't have the time for it. I was really hoping it wouldn't come to this because at 4 mandatory clears i could still get top progression with 2 out of 3 essentials and some grinding. Now it seems like the bar is too high. Maybe I'm upset because it wasn't explicitly said that you need to do 5 full clears with all essentials and if not then you can only reach the big hp reward. I dont know. I need to rethink my approach to pve.Bowgentle said:escart85 said:Ok so I'm confused about the new clearing policy starting with The HUNT.
First leg I did everything 6 times, where the 5th and 6th clear was done just right after the 4th so no waiting. I didn't have gamora rostered on the 1st leg. 2nd leg of the event - 48hr node. I did 5 clears on each node where the 5th was at almost full points cause I had the luxury to wait without having to rush and I had gamora rostered. I didn't have time for the 6th clear. Now the 3rd leg started and I'm at 33k points in progression where as the top is at 60k+ and I don't see how I'm going to get the top progression reward at 55k so something is wrong. It was mentioned that you could do 5 clears (the 5th being at full points) or 5th and 6th without waiting to get to top progression.
I'm not seeing it. Can anyone explain this? Are we having another Enemy of the State moment when they didn't do the math right?
5 clears assumes that you have all the essentials.
Missing Gamora on day 1 means you'll have to clear more on the following days.1 -
I would really like this change also, it would beat the hell out of waiting for the bracket info to refresh, sometimes its not completely accurate, or refreshes well after the bracket flips. Seems especially so for s4, that seems to be the slowest and least played slice. They tell you how many people are in there once you join, why not show how many are there when you're about to join??Fightmastermpq said:Just make the current bracket information show up in game so that you don't have to coordinate or get lucky to jump in a fresh bracket.
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This change is somewhat of a downgrade for me concerning the CP- Since I usually don't have time to get to max progression I would just get the 4*.
Doing that I used to get 10 CP as well, now I'll probably just get 8 or 0
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I agree. Because so far i enjoyed the benefits of SCL8 with a steady income of 150hp per pve and now even though you are getting more you need to commit more time and the intermediary 200 iso rewards are just peanuts2
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One extra "loss" I see is in the Hero points department. Before the change I would play SCL7 and getting top50 was not much of an issue. That is 100HP per day. Getting the same in SCL8 is much harder, takes more grind. Sure - it pays off more but is it worth it?0
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I don't like this update. I was perfectly fine with getting 10 CP if I can't reach the max progression goals. Now I'm guaranteed to get 8 CP (really?) and so far, I don't think I'm close to getting it atm. I can imagine how bad this'll be in 7 day events.
With the constant bugs that stopped me from putting money into this game, money hungry updates for those that are struggling for 3* and 4*, and now this, I may consider quitting this game all together. I'm willing to give this another chance in the next PVE. If all else fails, I quit.
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I wanted to play an event within the new structure before making any manner of comment about it, and now that I've done my required 5 clears for the first two subs of The Hunt, I can give my honest opinion on it...and well...I'm not a fan.
A little background on me: I'm just over 3 years in, I'm not what I would consider a spender, but I have spent here and there, mostly back when 4* covers could be bought for 2500 HP. I have all but like 5 of the 4*s in the game champed, over 1,000,000 ISO in the bank and like 1400 HP saved up. CP I spend as soon as I get 20. I refuse to take any 5* past lvl 360, because being shoehorned into using the same 3 characters for every fight would ruin the game for me; I find the game at the 4* level much more interesting and fun than what the 5* level seems to bring to the table. I have 3 of them fully covered, and a few more at like 7-9 covers, but I literally never use them outside of rushing thru easy PvE nodes. This puts me at a place where I am likely to have 3-5 boosted 4*s for any given event, and the scaling at max level is relatively fair for my roster. I play PvP to 575 and stop, I don't really care for the structure of the mode, but 575 takes like half hour to get, so I muddle thru.
All in all, I'm in a pretty sweet spot in MPQ. My biggest gripe before this change was that by the 4th clear of any given PvE event, I was BORED...this event in particular, after fighting the 900th battle vs the same endless parade of 5 characters over and over again in a game that contains over 100 characters, it simply gets boring. Adding a 5th run against these fights, at the highest possible scaling, is too much for me. I'll finish out the Hunt, since I'm already 2/3 of the way thru it, but going forward, I see myself skipping a LOT of PvE events. The rewards are so backloaded that if you're not going to go all in, you might as well not bother at all. I'll play up to the 4* cover if I need it to finish a character or to get a champ to a key level for a good champ reward, but that's it. Maybe that was their intent, who knows...I stopped trying to piece together D3's logic years ago, clearly they think on a different wavelength than their customers.
Create some new events, or heck, even just take the same ones we've been running for years and just add in some new fights to make them feel more interesting. I really don't understand why they're so reluctant to use the plethora of characters they've created...events like Simulator and Gauntlet are fun for me, because at least its something more interesting than fighting a Daken/Ares/Bullseye node 4x in a row (oh right, I mean 5x now...awesome), only to then follow it with a Bullseye/Moonstone/Daken node...5x in a row. It's boring, and by the end of a few clears, I'd rather be doing something else. So now, when a new event is starting, I'm gonna look at the boosted list, and consider the event itself, knowing that I have to clear EVERY single battle FIVE times in a row. If the boosted characters don't gel or aren't fun to play and/or the event is full of nothing but endless DA fights, I'm just not gonna bother with it. I imagine that their intent here was to increase engagement, but for me at least, it's had the opposite effect. I'll be sitting out a lot more events now, which will drive my overall engagement with the game down. Hopefully I'm not alone and their metrics show this, and they address the issue. If not, oh well...it's summer and there's cool outdoors-y stuff to be done.
As has been mentioned above, all that is really necessary to fix the majority of player complaints about this issue is to put the extra 8 CP somewhere past the 4x clear progression on the ladder of the old system and call it a day. I wouldn't care so much about missing out on 8 CP. But missing out on 25 if I don't want to clear EVERY fight 5x? Yea, that makes me not want to bother playing the event at all...
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Brigby said:Hi Everyone. Apologies for the confusion.
Beating every non-repeatable mission once and every repeatable mission 5 times (3 times for Join Forces missions and 2 times for Wave missions) will get you the top Progression reward. Mission regeneration does not factor into the equation.
For anyone that missed it.
It is 5 clears.0 -
What's to be mad about? If you were already doing 4 clears already, just hit the 4 easy nodes 3 times near the beginning and the end of the sub and you will be golden. One more clear is at most 30 minutes (non-wave). 30 minutes more for a but load of rewards, big deal. Spread that 30 minutes throughout the day. 10 minutes taking a dump, boom 2 hard nodes down. 10 minutes of commercial time watching the news 3 more down. 10 random minutes doing whatever 4 easy nodes and loaner node down. There you go, enjoy your extra rewards.0
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