Update to Progression Rewards in Story Events (5/18/17)

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  • Jaedenkaal
    Jaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    Brigby said:
    Hi Everyone. Apologies for the confusion.

    Beating every non-repeatable mission once and every repeatable mission 5 times (3 times for Join Forces missions and 2 times for Wave missions) will get you the top Progression reward. Mission regeneration does not factor into the equation.
    Also, is this different for 48-hour sub events?
  • slarti
    slarti Posts: 16 Just Dropped In
    sh81 said:
    slarti said:
    For me, this is clearly the most horrible change they did in a very long time: You get more rewards, but you need to play much more to get any CP.

    Hitting each node 4 times was already not interesting and time consuming. Doing it 5 times each day is just not fun and sustainable. I already stopped playing two years ago for 6 months because pve was getting too demanding.

    I am really considering to play less again and stop renewing VIP.


     
    @Starfury This is exactly my point.

    slarti is prepared to walk away because it doesnt work for him/her.  Completely legitimate choice to make.


    It's still not wise from d3 to force casual/semi-casual players to take this decision. They also need to retain the players that are not willing to spend 2-3 hours each day playing MPQ. Many of these players are still contributing to their income (e.g. as VIP's).  Any paying customer they lose is bad for their business...
  • DapperChewie
    DapperChewie Posts: 399 Mover and Shaker
    Brigby said:
    Hi Everyone. Apologies for the confusion.

    Beating every non-repeatable mission once and every repeatable mission 5 times (3 times for Join Forces missions and 2 times for Wave missions) will get you the top Progression reward. Mission regeneration does not factor into the equation.

    Thank you for the clarification! While I may not like having to do another full clear for these rewards, the extra rewards are nice, and we never really had a solid "to get full progression, you must do X clears" statement before. 

    I assume that 48hr nodes do not factor into anything, as they never did before either. Am I correct here? 
  • aa25
    aa25 Posts: 348 Mover and Shaker
    edited May 2017
    Brigby said:
    Hi Everyone. Apologies for the confusion.

    Beating every non-repeatable mission once and every repeatable mission 5 times (3 times for Join Forces missions and 2 times for Wave missions) will get you the top Progression reward. Mission regeneration does not factor into the equation.

    @Brigby

    Is this correct ? It sounds contradict to the quote in the OP which implies that the one-time nodes are not counted.

    Edit: Additional questions for clarity and completeness.

    What about weird nodes like one of the node in the second sub of DP vs.MPQ where it has a loaner 3* Deadpool but its points regenerate like non-loaner nodes (4 clears to start the clock). Or one of the node in the main sub of Prodigal sun which is not a loaner node, but its points regenerate like loaner nodes (one clear to start the clock)
  • vinsensual
    vinsensual Posts: 458 Mover and Shaker
    Brigby said:
    Hi Everyone. Apologies for the confusion.

    Beating every non-repeatable mission once and every repeatable mission 5 times (3 times for Join Forces missions and 2 times for Wave missions) will get you the top Progression reward. Mission regeneration does not factor into the equation.
    It is very important that this part of your statement is 100% accurate.  I would wager it's gonna be quoted a lot in the future.  
  • Jam_Adams
    Jam_Adams Posts: 486 Mover and Shaker
    sh81 said:
    Its not 6 clears.

    Its 4 clears at 100% available points and 1 clear at 66% available points.

    So if you did 5 clears as soon as the sub opened you would get max progression.

    Or, as Ive been trying to point out, if you do 4 clears when the sub opens and then wait for the points to regenerate - you should get away with that 5th clear not even being a full round of nodes.


    From the opening post
    "Normal non-wave, non-"Join Forces" missions: First 4 clears are counted in full. The fifth clear is counted 2/3rds of the full points. (we don't expect people to wait until it regenerates)"


    ppl don't want to do more than 4 clears. This means 5 clears, 6 clears, ad infinitum

    And by ppl I mean majority as evidenced by the overwhelming responses in this thread.
  • keitterman
    keitterman Posts: 127 Tile Toppler
    I guess i had just assumed that the 5th clear would be at full points, but if no. this is a very odd change. If you've ever preformed an optimal clear through an event attempting to get close to #1 in placement, you know what they are really saying is that it's gone from 4 clear for max progress, to 4.66, which really changes nothing for die-hards because they were gonna do 4, wait ~23 hrs, do 3 more. I thought the change was to get 5 clears at once, then only need to get 2 clears before final instead of 3, but this really changes nothing for optimal strategy. So this is ONLY changing things for people who aren't trying to get 1st on the leader board, squeezing one more clear out of them... but why? they can't be making a fortune off of health packs from 5th tier clears? If that were the case, why not just scale everything up and leave it at 4? Something like: "With all the champs, and stuff, game's too easy ya'll, we're starting nodes at +25 and increasing by 50 or so each clear. Have fun... Also, fixed a bug on Juggs where his red was damaging him instead of healing, ttyl"
  • Saeva
    Saeva Posts: 39 Just Dropped In
    keitterman said:
    I thought the change was to get 5 clears at once, then only need to get 2 clears before final instead of 3, but this really changes nothing for optimal strategy. So this is ONLY changing things for people who aren't trying to get 1st on the leader board, squeezing one more clear out of them..
    Not so much, actually. For people who try to get placement there's often a tendency to join in the 2nd day (or 3rd for 7 day events) so that they only have to do optimal clears 5 out of 7 days a week. Requiring 4.66 clears for max progression changes that, making it a choice between getting a specific cover(s) through placement or a full LT pull through CP. For those who do placement this reduces their CP or equivalent (i.e. 4* cover) by about half, slowing down their progression down 50%. Even if they choose to start joining in the 1st day now there's still only ten people who will get a 4* cover so they might not be able to compensate for this difference even if they're willing to put in the extra effort.

    It means, overall, the number of people getting both placement covers and CP covers is significantly reduced as only the t10 winners who join brackets in the 1st day will get both. Prior to that anyone who joined in the 2nd day after a bracket flip and played optimally would get both if they placed t10. Since brackets continue to flip until the end of the event that's a fairly big change for those who play PvE most competitively. 

    But scaling things up would lead to an even bigger loss of engagement with top competitors and/or whales as for higher end rosters, with many 4* champs and/or 5* champs, already have scaling that slows down how long it takes to complete your clears. If they increased the scaling more it'd not only increase the play time but, in many cases, make it flatout impossible to manage the top scaling of Dark Avengers like Moonstone having 80,000 Health Points+. 
  • keitterman
    keitterman Posts: 127 Tile Toppler
    Saeva said:
    keitterman said:
    I thought the change was to get 5 clears at once, then only need to get 2 clears before final instead of 3, but this really changes nothing for optimal strategy. So this is ONLY changing things for people who aren't trying to get 1st on the leader board, squeezing one more clear out of them..
    Not so much, actually. For people who try to get placement there's often a tendency to join in the 2nd day (or 3rd for 7 day events) so that they only have to do optimal clears 5 out of 7 days a week. Requiring 4.66 clears for max progression changes that, making it a choice between getting a specific cover(s) through placement or a full LT pull through CP. For those who do placement this reduces their CP or equivalent (i.e. 4* cover) by...
    Ah, good point about people ho join on day 2, i had forgotten. I wonder if that was the catalyst to this. 

    Also, i was joking about increasing the scaling, Kind of a "other bad ideas they could have done", which is why i threw that Juggs comment in too .
  • vinsensual
    vinsensual Posts: 458 Mover and Shaker
    Saeva said:


    Second, for those who do play for placement it's common to join in the 2nd day. That allows for full progression and placement in the old system. In the new system full progression isn't possible if you join the second day, even if you green check for optimal points. 
    I was gonna give this a shot anyways, but you're comfortably certain of this?A late join, optimal clears and grinding to 1 pt won't be enough?  In last week's system that was good enough to still 1.4-1.5x max progression.  They really moved the goalposts back if that's the case.
  • Saeva
    Saeva Posts: 39 Just Dropped In
    edited May 2017
    vinsensual said:
    Saeva said:


    Second, for those who do play for placement it's common to join in the 2nd day. That allows for full progression and placement in the old system. In the new system full progression isn't possible if you join the second day, even if you green check for optimal points. 
    I was gonna give this a shot anyways, but you're comfortably certain of this?A late join, optimal clears and grinding to 1 pt won't be enough?  In last week's system that was good enough to still 1.4-1.5x max progression.  They really moved the goalposts back if that's the case.
    @vinsensual: Since they don't give you specific point amounts and events are back-end heavy, no, I'm not entirely certain. It might be possible if you do a 7th playthrough. Let's find out! Given you asked I decided to do an approximation of the math using point values I chose in place of ones we don't have available yet.

    It's worth noting that the reason you can get past max prog doing 2 days of 6x clears is because the third day is worth twice the point of the first day. That said, I was pretty sure, upon reading your comment, that you have to play all three days to get 1.4x progression and the math bears this out.

    For example, let's say that the first day is worth 120 pts, the second day is worth 180 pts, and the third day is worth 240 points at 4x clears. That's 540 pts total for full progression in the old system. At 6x optimal clears it's then worth 170 (day 1), 254 (day 2), and 339 (day 3). That's 763 pts total, which is 1.4x full progression. 

    If you only do the last two days, then, you get 593 points, or about 10% over full progression. That gels with the scores I remember getting. 

    Now do it with the new scores/new max progression requiring an extra, partial credit play* per node. Using my numbers that means you need 120 + (2x10) or 140 pts on day 1, 180 + (2.9x10) or 209 on day 2, and 240 + (3.9x10) or 279 on day 3. That's a total of 628 pts for full progression, which is not achievable through 2 days of optimal play (593 pts).  

    Note: I got to 120/180/240 by simulating the idea that you needed to clear 10 nodes total, simply because 10 is easier to deal with than 9. From there, I picked an easily divisible number to start with (3), so that each node would be worth 3 pts per first play on day 1, 4.5 pts per first play on day 2, and 6 pts per first play on day 3.

    That'd mean a 4x clear for each node in the first day would be worth 12 pts total. With optimal clears you'd have 5x full point clears and 1x 2/3rd point clear so 17 pts total. Obviously in the actual system nodes are not of equal value. That said, since that's true for each day and each day overall follows the 50% increase of point value over the previous day, that fact doesn't change the overall conclusion AFAICT.

    * Partial credit refers to the fact that you don't need to wait for refresh so the 5th play is only worth 66% of the full points. 66% of 3 is 2, of 4.5 it's ~2.9, and of 6 it's approximately 3.9/4. Again, I simply multiplied these numbers by 10 nodes instead of the typical 9 used in events. 

    It's possible, however, that you could use the 1/3rd points you receive for a 7th play through to compensate for the gap. In the math above it would equal 43 points, which would put you just above full progression (593 for 6x plays + 43 for a 7th play = 636, or 8 points over full progression). That said, it'd depend on event and how early you joined in the 2nd day and how fast you can clear. The gap would be extremely tight but if you join very early in day 2 it might be possible, yes. That said, it might not work due to the fact that -- because you must start the end of the sub earlier to have time for 3 extra plays -- the earlier play time (giving the points less time to refresh for playthrough #6) might take away any advantage a 7th play gains you. Overall, I'm comfortable stating that even a 7th playthrough wouldn't give most rosters/players enough points, but might if you were lucky with the flip time and could do a final play v. quickly. 

    Unless they've changed the basic formula for how they backload points, yes, you must play all three days to reach full progression at only 6x plays, however. Like I said, we don't have the exact point totals and, obviously, my math heavily simplifies the points involved. However, for 6x plays the math follows, as far as I can tell, and if I've made a mistake that would discount that (which I'm hoping I have) anyone who notices should please point it out. 

    Seriously, please point it out. I really want my math to be wrong. 

    (Edited: To bring up the potential for a 7th playthrough to change the results. Final edit is 22 minutes after initial post.) 
  • DrDevilDinosaur
    DrDevilDinosaur Posts: 436 Mover and Shaker
    Tfw the new system is very straight forward and no one is confused about it at all.

    [Imagine a picture of an Italian chef making a kissing gesture against the tips of his fingers here]
  • Pongie
    Pongie Posts: 1,412 Chairperson of the Boards
    Saeva said:

    But, more than that, there aren't any match-3 games out there that have these same mechanics in terms of gathering covers to build characters. There's plenty of combat/fight style games like that but not any match-3. If you know of one, let me know. 
    Haven't played these but I assume it would be similar:
    1. Magic: the Gathering Puzzle Quest
    2. Adventure Time Puzzle Quest
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2017
    All this theorycrafting in here.

    Why not just play the current event and see if you can easily make final prog with your normal playstyle?

    If you can't, adjust next event.

    Instead we get a million questions directed at poor Brigby who can't give any answers because, as always, the devs are very very bad with words.

    Worst case you miss the 25 CP this PVE and can adjust for the next one.
    Missing 25 CP once isn't going to kill you.
  • Nick441234
    Nick441234 Posts: 1,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    Missing the 25cp makes the 5 day event a waste of my time. So yes, it is important to know what we have to do to get it. 
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    nick_chicane said:
    Missing the 25cp makes the 5 day event a waste of my time. So yes, it is important to know what we have to do to get it. 

    Then just do 5 clears to be safe?
  • Daiches
    Daiches Posts: 1,252 Chairperson of the Boards
    Brigby said:
    @St_Bernadus

    If you choose to wait until the points for the 5th clear are full, then you only need to complete each node's 5th clear to hit max progression. If you don't feel like waiting, then you can immediately full clear all nodes to hit max progression.
    Ehm.. That's not what said in the announcement.

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