Update to Progression Rewards in Story Events (5/18/17)

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Comments

  • astrp3
    astrp3 Posts: 367 Mover and Shaker
    Smudge said:
    If you can make sense of that, fine.  I can't.  "We don't want you to grind more, but we want you to grind more."  Sure.
    I can make sense of that. Some of the players grinding the 1-point nodes to dust were likely grinding for hours a day - significantly more than the time required to do a fifth clear per day (far less than an hour) and significantly less healthy. This is just a semi-wild guess, but I suspect that part of their motivation in the1-point node thing was the various reports that have surfaced of people dying after playing video games for hours on end (I think one even came out right around the time of the announcement, though I'm not sure it was pertinent). Such occurrences are unlikely in the extreme to be sure, but if it ever happened with MPQ it would be tragic (and a PR nightmare to boot).  So it's not "We don't want you to grind more, but we want you to grind more" but "We want you to grind more, but not to the point that it poses a health risk.'


  • Tee
    Tee Posts: 231 Tile Toppler
    edited May 2017
    The 4* is at the 26,000 marker.


    50 Hero Points is at the 21,000 marker.
    125 is at the 48,000 marker.
    For clarity, max progression is 55,000.

    Those are the only hero points in the progression.


    Second 3* cover progression has two covers instead of one.

    Command points are
    8 at 31,500.
    25 at final progression of 55,000.
    No others.
    EDIT: Correct me if I'm wrong, but that means unless you hit max progression you are getting less overall. From 10 to 8.
  • orbitalint
    orbitalint Posts: 511 Critical Contributor
    edited May 2017
    astrp3 said:
    Smudge said:
    If you can make sense of that, fine.  I can't.  "We don't want you to grind more, but we want you to grind more."  Sure.
    So it's not "We don't want you to grind more, but we want you to grind more" but "We want you to grind more, but not to the point that it poses a health risk.'
    I'd love to hear what the devs actually think is their targets for "good" engagement for obtaining rewards because for placement in PVE, it's about three hours every day. PVE Progression, maybe knock an hour off. PVP progression to 700-800 and a decent 4* roster, you can get away with 30-45 minutes every other day. Add some time shield hopping for placement. DDQ 15 minutes. So, total, what 3.5-4 hours/day?

    How is four hours a day with an app viewed as "healthy" in any way whatsoever? I doubt it was their concern for our health but rather people playing outside the intended parameters because of perverse incentives they set up in the game and not knowing how to address the problem without being more generous with rewards.

    Non-character release pve give terrible 4* rewards, so people were using an ill-advised but legit strategy to engineer points that can't be created under "normal optimal" playing to ensure top placement. Instead of addressing the root problem (terrible placement rewards for 4* pve) they treated the symptom (massive over grinding of trivial nodes). 
  • astrp3
    astrp3 Posts: 367 Mover and Shaker
    orbitalint said:

    How is four hours a day with an app viewed as "healthy" in any way whatsoever? I doubt it was their concern for our health but rather people playing outside the intended parameters because of perverse incentives they set up in the game and not knowing how to address the problem without being more generous with rewards.
    I agree that the amount of grinding require for PvE placement is ridiculous (if I ever quit the game, THAT will be the reason why, not vaulting, HfH, or "you're supposed to lose" outrage"), but I don't think 3-4 hours a day is going to literally kill anyone (I don't think 12 or even 18 hours a day is going to kill anyone either, but it's marginally more likely). I also agree/suspect that another part of their rationale for the 1-point change is so that players can't get top placement by endlessly grinding nodes. The new reward structure, however, does not seem to affect placement in  any obvious way (though it may have the less obvious effect of more players choosing to go ahead and do the sixth clear). But I thought that the original announcement about the 1-point change did mention health concerns (whether they were true or not) and phrased it in such a way that it was referring to physical health, but I at be wrong.



  • Pants1000
    Pants1000 Posts: 484 Mover and Shaker
    I think it's been overlooked, but I would like to say thanks for adding CP to differentiate between CL 6/7/8.  This should reduce the number of people playing in lower CL.

    Next up please do the same for PVP.  Spread the rewards out more though.  If the only difference is the CP at 1200, it won't matter for most players.
  • orbitalint
    orbitalint Posts: 511 Critical Contributor
    astrp3 said:
    I also agree/suspect that another part of their rationale for the 1-point change is so that players can't get top placement by endlessly grinding nodes. The new reward structure, however, does not seem to affect placement in  any obvious way (though it may have the less obvious effect of more players choosing to go ahead and do the sixth clear). But I thought that the original announcement about the 1-point change did mention health concerns (whether they were true or not) and phrased it in such a way that it was referring to physical health, but I at be wrong.

    It does mention healthy but I read it as "not playing as intended," myself - https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/62425/updates-to-story-mission-minimum-points-3-28-17#latest.

    But, i agree that it won't impact the 4* placement of PVE because those are on practically optimal play for highly desired rewards but it might marginally impact top 100/300 placement by creating higher scores in general. I can barely play and get 4* progression and top 150 most events. Guess we'll see.
  • Saeva
    Saeva Posts: 39 Just Dropped In
    edited May 2017
    orbitalint said:
    astrp3 said:
    The new reward structure, however, does not seem to affect placement in  any obvious way (though it may have the less obvious effect of more players choosing to go ahead and do the sixth clear).
    It does mention healthy but I read it as "not playing as intended," myself - https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/62425/updates-to-story-mission-minimum-points-3-28-17#latest.

    But, i agree that it won't impact the 4* placement of PVE because those are on practically optimal play for highly desired rewards but it might marginally impact top 100/300 placement by creating higher scores [...]
    Unfortunately, I think you're wrong. Something that's popular with t10 players in PvE is to wait for a bracket to 'flip' from 1000 players to 1. If you join just as the bracket starts then you have an advantage over someone who joins 10 or 100 or 1000 minutes after you do while still playing the same optimal strategy. That's because you have more time for your points to refresh than someone who joined later. 

    The result of this is that a lot of players will, say, join the 2nd day of a 3 day event, doing six clears. In the old system you're playing the same number of clears (108) as someone playing all 3 days for 4x clears and playing for approximately the same amount of time (3 days of 2 hours vs 2 days of 3 hours). You still reach max progression, the same as someone who plays every day.

    Now that 135 clears are required it may not be possible to do that anymore. Instead, you may have to play all three days in order to reach max progression, requiring people who want to take a day off and/or use a flip to place in the t10 to choose between a specific 4* cover and the extra 22/25CP that max progression brings. If there's no way to compensate the points then this is a net loss for people who play for placement since you're now one 4* cover/CP equivalent down from where you were in the old system. Additionally, playing for placement can easily lead to burnout if you don't take days off, so there's a secondary problem. 

    Basically, unless the refresh points for playing optimally are enough to compensate for those extra 27 clears (which is possible, we'll have to see how it works out), then there is an impact for placement players. 
  • SkyElf
    SkyElf Posts: 22 Just Dropped In
    While the idea of more rewards sounds appealing in theory, in practice only people who have time for 5 or 6 full clears actually benefit.  At least in terms of command points, anyone who only has time for 4 or fewer full clears actually get fewer command points under the new system.  Please spread out the command points more.

  • DrDevilDinosaur
    DrDevilDinosaur Posts: 436 Mover and Shaker
    So I got to 4/6 clears and points are degraded, can I do my 5th clear immediately and still hit final progression? I don't want to have to set an alarm just to play the game. I used to just do the 4 clears at my leisure and I was happy with getting progression rewards. Now I don't know what to do. Why was this even changed anyway? Just go back to the old system of 4 clears. If you want to give us extra rewards, thank you - it's appreciated bit don't make us work harder.
  • genapp
    genapp Posts: 22 Just Dropped In
    Daiches said:
    genapp said:
    It sounds like it will take 5 full point clears for max progression. So if you don't time it right or get busy you have to do 6 clears to get max progression. I'm getting this from the announcement stating that green check marks if you don't wait for nodes to refill points will be required to get max progression.  Am I understanding this correctly?
    No, you aren't. The 5th clear is stated specifically as a 2/3 point clear, so like if you would hit it right after timer starts.
    if you do the 5th at grind time, you won't even have to hit the fifth in all nodes in the last sub.
    6 amd 7 clears are not needed for progression, but they are needed for getting al node rewards and Xp (6th hit), sub and overall placement rewards (7th)
    Then why does Brigby say this "Basically, if someone plays all missions to green checkmarks without waiting for timers to refill, they'll get top progression even with the reduced points from 5th and 6th node clears."?

    That makes it sound like you'll need 6 clears if you aren't able to do 5 optimal clears in order to hit max progression. 
  • orbitalint
    orbitalint Posts: 511 Critical Contributor
    @Saeva

    I wasn't referring to the difference in potential lost progressions for late joiners and those that hop in at a flip. I completely agree that they moved the goal post back that late joins are now going to have to hope the math works out for full progression.

    I was referring to the impact of the change on placement of PVE brackets. Ever how and when you play, the top 10 of all vet brackets will not be decided by the need to play a 5th time to get whatever progression is practically possible based on the new system. Even with the benefit of a flip, top ten are playing on a schedule that is pretty close to optimal for most all the subs (clear 4 whenever you start, wait to 80 min at end of sub, grind to 0, clear 4 to start sub, repeat). That's not going to change this placement states because the progressions are now benchmarked with 5 clears. Placement rewards are past that point in most all brackets.

    That was my point.
  • Saeva
    Saeva Posts: 39 Just Dropped In
    orbitalint said:
    @Saeva

    I wasn't referring to the difference in potential lost progressions for late joiners and those that hop in at a flip. [...] That's not going to change this placement states because the progressions are now benchmarked with 5 clears. Placement rewards are past that point in most all brackets.

    That was my point.
    Unless you consider late joiners to be anyone doesn't join in the first couple of flips then it will have an effect. Primarily because in this new system placement rewards will no longer be past the full progression for the majority of brackets. More brackets are created in the last days of an event then in the first day for higher clearance levels, especially in slices 4 and 5. This means that people will either have to choose between placing and full progression or getting both by joining an earlier bracket. 

    Consequently, early brackets will likely be more competitive than they were under the previous system. 

    Plus, this entire conversation thread I quoted was in context of whether or not play would have negative consequences for health. Hence, why I brought up the point of being required to play all days to get the same rewards as you could previously get while skipping some days.

    So, yes, I will say this does have an effect on high placement. 
  • orbitalint
    orbitalint Posts: 511 Critical Contributor
    Saeva said:
    orbitalint said:
    @Saeva

    I wasn't referring to the difference in potential lost progressions for late joiners and those that hop in at a flip. [...] That's not going to change this placement states because the progressions are now benchmarked with 5 clears. Placement rewards are past that point in most all brackets.

    That was my point.
    Unless you consider late joiners to be anyone doesn't join in the first couple of flips then it will have an effect. Primarily because in this new system placement rewards will no longer be past the full progression for the majority of brackets. More brackets are created in the last days of an event then in the first day for higher clearance levels, especially in slices 4 and 5. This means that people will either have to choose between placing and full progression or getting both by joining an earlier bracket. 

    Consequently, early brackets will likely be more competitive than they were under the previous system. 

    Plus, this entire conversation thread I quoted was in context of whether or not play would have negative consequences for health. Hence, why I brought up the point of being required to play all days to get the same rewards as you could previously get while skipping some days.

    So, yes, I will say this does have an effect on high placement. 
    I hadn't thought about the impact our might have on the competitiveness of earlier brackets and I think we're just going to have to disagree on everything else. 

    It will have an impact on mental well-being for those wanting to get full progression with a day break or more to start a new pve. However, the devs have implicitly made it clear to me that they expect people to play everyday up to a certain point. Otherwise, their calculations would allow for greater cushion to make full progression like you mention.

    The spin they gave about concern for health of individuals was a scenario for those playing 12+ hours a day to grind trivial nodes isn't really the threshold for the changes they made here. So, I don't think they care we have to play 30ish more minutes a day on average for full progression in a system that requires about 2hr/day on average because of health concerns.
  • MaskedMan
    MaskedMan Posts: 234 Tile Toppler
    If they want to go for 5 missions for progression they need to change the mission rewards to make it more clear.  Right now after 4 you get reduced rewards and points which just makes the whole system unclear.  If they want people to do 5 missions they it should be clear from the rewards, players shouldn't have to read the boards and go through dozens of posts to figure out how the system works.

    Sadly this was a good idea that poorly thought through as usual.
  • vinsensual
    vinsensual Posts: 458 Mover and Shaker
    This is dumb, why not just make the timers start at 5 clears instead of 4?  Coming up with recalculations for 4 full clears plus xx% of a 5th is so convoluted. 
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    vinsensual said:
    This is dumb, why not just make the timers start at 5 clears instead of 4?  Coming up with recalculations for 4 full clears plus xx% of a 5th is so convoluted. 

    That would force people who play for placement to do 5 clears right off the bat.
    Not a good change.

    You can do the 5th clear whenever to make full prog.
    Either right after the initial 4, or at any time after.

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