**** Nick Fury (Director of S.H.I.E.L.D) ****

Polares

Is there somewhere (or could someone post) the max values for Fury's powers? They are not in the first page or in the wiki, and I would like to know damage values of the yellow power specially...

Blue I think is around 10000, and Pink 3700 but I don't have any info on yellow.

Thanxs

Unknown

After using Nick Fury in the event, it seems to me yellow is much better than purple for all practical purposes, but because you don't know how much damage yellow does unless you've the stats memorized, sometimes purple ends up being better just because it's awfully hard to plan how to use a move when you've no idea how much damage it does.

For purple, I find that the last upgrade only matters if you're on offense and the tile is placed in a bad spot (defined as a spot that can be immediately matched). That is, you can break down the scenarios you get:

1. Bad spot on offense - faster CD matters.
2. Good spot on offense - almost never matched.
3. Bad spot on defense - always matched by a human.
4. Good spot on defense - almost never matched.

And there are far more good spots than bad spots in this game. Something that can be matched in an ideal two turn sequence isn't any safer than something that can be matched in an ideal three turn sequence because the AI pretty much never does anything that'd match your expectations, so the only risk for a higher CD is roughly equal to (# of tiles destroyed per turn/64)% which is small.

Phaserhawk

Phantron wrote:

After using Nick Fury in the event, it seems to me yellow is much better than purple for all practical purposes, but because you don't know how much damage yellow does unless you've the stats memorized, sometimes purple ends up being better just because it's awfully hard to plan how to use a move when you've no idea how much damage it does.

For purple, I find that the last upgrade only matters if you're on offense and the tile is placed in a bad spot (defined as a spot that can be immediately matched). That is, you can break down the scenarios you get:

1. Bad spot on offense - faster CD matters.
2. Good spot on offense - almost never matched.
3. Bad spot on defense - always matched by a human.
4. Good spot on defense - almost never matched.

And there are far more good spots than bad spots in this game. Something that can be matched in an ideal two turn sequence isn't any safer than something that can be matched in an ideal three turn sequence because the AI pretty much never does anything that'd match your expectations, so the only risk for a higher CD is roughly equal to (# of tiles destroyed per turn/64)% which is small.

agreed. I mean look no further than Punisher. He has the exact same scenario with this black. Do you build 5/5/3 and try to get black to resolve faster by dropping that CD tile count by 1, or do you say, yup, i'm happy with the inital damage and if the tile resolves, sweet, if not, oh well. And dealing with the Punisher right now in the PvP, I see a 50/50 split of 5/5/3 or 3/5/5 and the CD timer is rarely an issue due to characters with so much board destruction. While having a 600 something strike tile is nice, even if it does resolve, how long will it be around for? And if a maxed Fury yellow has Hulk doing about 2K worth of AoE dmg, I think I'd be happier with that, because it would take me 16 matches, (4 for each opponent) to surpass the damage of a 2000 AoE.

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

agreed. I mean look no further than Punisher. He has the exact same scenario with this black. Do you build 5/5/3 and try to get black to resolve faster by dropping that CD tile count by 1, or do you say, yup, i'm happy with the inital damage and if the tile resolves, sweet, if not, oh well. And dealing with the Punisher right now in the PvP, I see a 50/50 split of 5/5/3 or 3/5/5 and the CD timer is rarely an issue due to characters with so much board destruction. While having a 600 something strike tile is nice, even if it does resolve, how long will it be around for? And if a maxed Fury yellow has Hulk doing about 2K worth of AoE dmg, I think I'd be happier with that, because it would take me 16 matches, (4 for each opponent) to surpass the damage of a 2000 AoE.

Well, Escape Plan's CD is considerably stronger than Molotov, but I have come to release that it's because the tile is placed randomly that it renders the usual argument for faster CD irrelevent. I started out thinking that the number of tiles you can potentially reach in a 3 turn sequence must be exponentially greater than a 2 turn sequence, so the chance of the tile surviving at a 2 turn CD versus 3 turn CD should be significant. However, after playing Nick Fury, I realize this is wrong, because the AI has no plan on offense or defense regarding CDs. It is perfectly willing to move your immediately matchable Escape Plan out of the way because it doesn't prioritize CDs, and if you started thinking 'if I do this move and he does this move then I can match the CD' you'll almost always find the computer do a completely random move that made all your planning irrelevent.

Normally take a move like Bewilder. You'd start out by clearing out all the immediate blue matches, which should prevent the CD from immediately being matched. Now the computer still makes moves at random, but since you started out putting Bewilder in a safe location, the AI's random moves will almost certainly only make the tile less safe, so you want the CD to fire before the protection you setup is gone so saving a turn is huge. But for Escape Plan, there's no way to protect it in the first place, so there's no threshold for the AI to overcome.

Polares

Phantron wrote:

After using Nick Fury in the event, it seems to me yellow is much better than purple for all practical purposes, but because you don't know how much damage yellow does unless you've the stats memorized, sometimes purple ends up being better just because it's awfully hard to plan how to use a move when you've no idea how much damage it does.

For purple, I find that the last upgrade only matters if you're on offense and the tile is placed in a bad spot (defined as a spot that can be immediately matched). That is, you can break down the scenarios you get:

1. Bad spot on offense - faster CD matters.
2. Good spot on offense - almost never matched.
3. Bad spot on defense - always matched by a human.
4. Good spot on defense - almost never matched.

And there are far more good spots than bad spots in this game. Something that can be matched in an ideal two turn sequence isn't any safer than something that can be matched in an ideal three turn sequence because the AI pretty much never does anything that'd match your expectations, so the only risk for a higher CD is roughly equal to (# of tiles destroyed per turn/64)% which is small.

May I ask why you say you don't know how much damage yellow does? I guess part of the damage dealt is with tiles shattered, but is it so dependent on them? Or it is something like 3000 + tiles shattered ? I only have one yellow cover so I don't know how the other powers work...

Phaserhawk

Polares wrote:

Phantron wrote:

After using Nick Fury in the event, it seems to me yellow is much better than purple for all practical purposes, but because you don't know how much damage yellow does unless you've the stats memorized, sometimes purple ends up being better just because it's awfully hard to plan how to use a move when you've no idea how much damage it does.

For purple, I find that the last upgrade only matters if you're on offense and the tile is placed in a bad spot (defined as a spot that can be immediately matched). That is, you can break down the scenarios you get:

1. Bad spot on offense - faster CD matters.
2. Good spot on offense - almost never matched.
3. Bad spot on defense - always matched by a human.
4. Good spot on defense - almost never matched.

And there are far more good spots than bad spots in this game. Something that can be matched in an ideal two turn sequence isn't any safer than something that can be matched in an ideal three turn sequence because the AI pretty much never does anything that'd match your expectations, so the only risk for a higher CD is roughly equal to (# of tiles destroyed per turn/64)% which is small.

May I ask why you say you don't know how much damage yellow does? I guess part of the damage dealt is with tiles shattered, but is it so dependent on them? Or it is something like 3000 + tiles shattered ? I only have one yellow cover so I don't know how the other powers work...

because no one has listed what the actually damage values are. Not to even count the possible cascades it can create. The fact that no one knows how much Dmg IronMan does, or how much dmg the AoE of the Hulk does has made the value of this skill hard to evaluate. The rough numbers are if you have 5 red and 5 green when you resolve the skill, IM does about 3-3.5K damage and Hulk does about 2K in AoE damage, but again not sure if those are buffed, or with strike tiles, etc, I really wish D3 would announe those values.

I have always liked Avenger's Assemble over Escape Plan except for one thing. All the avengers skills resolve at the same time, meaning if it's a finishing move and you have all the colors, BW is going to stun the target who will die anyway thus wasting her skill.

Phaserhawk

Phantron wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

agreed. I mean look no further than Punisher. He has the exact same scenario with this black. Do you build 5/5/3 and try to get black to resolve faster by dropping that CD tile count by 1, or do you say, yup, i'm happy with the inital damage and if the tile resolves, sweet, if not, oh well. And dealing with the Punisher right now in the PvP, I see a 50/50 split of 5/5/3 or 3/5/5 and the CD timer is rarely an issue due to characters with so much board destruction. While having a 600 something strike tile is nice, even if it does resolve, how long will it be around for? And if a maxed Fury yellow has Hulk doing about 2K worth of AoE dmg, I think I'd be happier with that, because it would take me 16 matches, (4 for each opponent) to surpass the damage of a 2000 AoE.

Well, Escape Plan's CD is considerably stronger than Molotov, but I have come to release that it's because the tile is placed randomly that it renders the usual argument for faster CD irrelevent. I started out thinking that the number of tiles you can potentially reach in a 3 turn sequence must be exponentially greater than a 2 turn sequence, so the chance of the tile surviving at a 2 turn CD versus 3 turn CD should be significant. However, after playing Nick Fury, I realize this is wrong, because the AI has no plan on offense or defense regarding CDs. It is perfectly willing to move your immediately matchable Escape Plan out of the way because it doesn't prioritize CDs, and if you started thinking 'if I do this move and he does this move then I can match the CD' you'll almost always find the computer do a completely random move that made all your planning irrelevent.

Normally take a move like Bewilder. You'd start out by clearing out all the immediate blue matches, which should prevent the CD from immediately being matched. Now the computer still makes moves at random, but since you started out putting Bewilder in a safe location, the AI's random moves will almost certainly only make the tile less safe, so you want the CD to fire before the protection you setup is gone so saving a turn is huge. But for Escape Plan, there's no way to protect it in the first place, so there's no threshold for the AI to overcome.

I forgot Punisher's CD went to red only, for some reason I thought it was random. Yes than I agree with you 100%. At least when as you said Bewilder goes to blue, or Moltove goes to red, or Sentry's Sacrifce goes to yellow, you can make a reasonable effort to clear enough of the color that the tile is safe temporarily and that as moves go on the tile becomes less and less safe, thus wanting a faster resolve. It's like when I used Escape Plan against Ragnarok. It appeared right in the middle and of course Rags casts Godlike Power and Poof, it's gone

Unknown

I'm guessing the damage value isn't listed because there won't be enough space but it's really annoying. For example I know my Nick Fury does somewhere around 2500-2700 in this event with the red, but I don't use him often enough to have it memorized. Let's say there's a high level full HP Daken and I got a Fireball and Avenger's Assemble ready. Well, that couple hundred damage could matter a lot if it fails to drop Daken from 100 to 0 since Daken recovers from damage very quickly. It's usually an annoyance but there are definitely time where not knowing for sure what the damage it's supposed to do had an impact on the game, and we shouldn't have to memorize what his damage is. If they hide the damage on Call the Storm, it'd still be just as overpowered but I'm betting a lot of people will be off by a couple hundred on the edge cases, and that can range from just annoying to disastrous depending on who you're fighting. Being off by a few hundred against say, Hulk, can lead to a board wiping Anger trigger.

Spoit

Polares wrote:

Is there somewhere (or could someone post) the max values for Fury's powers? They are not in the first page or in the wiki, and I would like to know damage values of the yellow power specially...

Blue I think is around 10000, and Pink 3700 but I don't have any info on yellow.

Thanxs

I asked IceIX for the details on his yellow last time he was actually posting...probably like a month ago at this point

mischiefmaker

From upthread, on page 10:

iincognito wrote:

I maxed out Fury with a 5/5/3 setup. Collected at least 5 AP for each of his Avengers Assemble abilities before unleashing his power. He damaged the primary target for 4080 hp and the rest for 1360 hp. He also stunned the primary target for 3 turns, added 2 ctrit tiles and added 2 protection tiles (163 each). Keep in mind that he does this for just 12 yellow ap. He needs, but does not use, 5 red, purple, blue and green ap. Now, you can still pop his yellow without having 5 of each supporting colors, but you will not get the full effect. (I.e. I did not have 5 green ap for one of my tests, so Hulk was not summoned to do damage, but the other avengers assembled.)

Page 13:

hamsingame wrote:

Edit: Some damage data. At level 209, Iron Man did 2543 damage, Hulk did 1281

The numbers for Iron Man at level 209 look right (I've got a L3 yellow that's 207 in the current event), but I can't verify any of the others. It's a little strange that the scaling from level 209 to level 270 is 1500 damage for Iron Man but only 80 damage for Hulk, though, so it'd be really nice if someone with a 5-yellow could confirm, and also test whether the main-target damage is affected by the L5 cover.

Unknown

mischiefmaker wrote:

From upthread, on page 10:

iincognito wrote:

I maxed out Fury with a 5/5/3 setup. Collected at least 5 AP for each of his Avengers Assemble abilities before unleashing his power. He damaged the primary target for 4080 hp and the rest for 1360 hp. He also stunned the primary target for 3 turns, added 2 ctrit tiles and added 2 protection tiles (163 each). Keep in mind that he does this for just 12 yellow ap. He needs, but does not use, 5 red, purple, blue and green ap. Now, you can still pop his yellow without having 5 of each supporting colors, but you will not get the full effect. (I.e. I did not have 5 green ap for one of my tests, so Hulk was not summoned to do damage, but the other avengers assembled.)

Page 13:

hamsingame wrote:

Edit: Some damage data. At level 209, Iron Man did 2543 damage, Hulk did 1281

The numbers for Iron Man at level 209 look right (I've got a L3 yellow that's 207 in the current event), but I can't verify any of the others. It's a little strange that the scaling from level 209 to level 270 is 1500 damage for Iron Man but only 80 damage for Hulk, though, so it'd be really nice if someone with a 5-yellow could confirm, and also test whether the main-target damage is affected by the L5 cover.

I suspect the 4000 damage was Iron Man's red + Hulk's green on everyone combined, as that'd work out for 2720r/1360g for 270 versus 2543r/1281g for level 209 which at least looks reasonable.

That also illustrates the frustration with using Fury because you've an unknown value for red and green and they're usually combined, and being off by 200 on Hulk when you have 10 Anger tiles on the board is not a matter of life and death. Sure, you might calculate wrong anyway even if you were given the numbers, but it's really frustrating to not even know the numbers.

Polares

Phantron wrote:

mischiefmaker wrote:

From upthread, on page 10:

iincognito wrote:

I maxed out Fury with a 5/5/3 setup. Collected at least 5 AP for each of his Avengers Assemble abilities before unleashing his power. He damaged the primary target for 4080 hp and the rest for 1360 hp. He also stunned the primary target for 3 turns, added 2 ctrit tiles and added 2 protection tiles (163 each). Keep in mind that he does this for just 12 yellow ap. He needs, but does not use, 5 red, purple, blue and green ap. Now, you can still pop his yellow without having 5 of each supporting colors, but you will not get the full effect. (I.e. I did not have 5 green ap for one of my tests, so Hulk was not summoned to do damage, but the other avengers assembled.)

Page 13:

hamsingame wrote:

Edit: Some damage data. At level 209, Iron Man did 2543 damage, Hulk did 1281

The numbers for Iron Man at level 209 look right (I've got a L3 yellow that's 207 in the current event), but I can't verify any of the others. It's a little strange that the scaling from level 209 to level 270 is 1500 damage for Iron Man but only 80 damage for Hulk, though, so it'd be really nice if someone with a 5-yellow could confirm, and also test whether the main-target damage is affected by the L5 cover.

I suspect the 4000 damage was Iron Man's red + Hulk's green on everyone combined, as that'd work out for 2720r/1360g for 270 versus 2543r/1281g for level 209 which at least looks reasonable.

That also illustrates the frustration with using Fury because you've an unknown value for red and green and they're usually combined, and being off by 200 on Hulk when you have 10 Anger tiles on the board is not a matter of life and death. Sure, you might calculate wrong anyway even if you were given the numbers, but it's really frustrating to not even know the numbers.

Then that's it, a little less powerfull than Call the Storm, but with added bonuses (stun, crit tiles and cascade), so in the end it could be deadlier for the character in front, but the other ones are a little bit safer. Not bad for 12 yellow (certanly a very good alternative to Lighting Strike or Sacrifice).

over_clocked

But it's not 12 yellow. For 12 yellow all it does is add protect tiles <--- It's 12 yellow, 5 blue, 5 purple, 5 red and 5 green. 32 AP total needed for the full effect.

Phaserhawk

locked wrote:

But it's not 12 yellow. For 12 yellow all it does is add protect tiles <--- It's 12 yellow, 5 blue, 5 purple, 5 red and 5 green. 32 AP total needed for the full effect.

true, but I almost never, don't have at least 5 in a few of those. as long as I have 5 in red and green i'm super happy as the rest is just bonus anyway. Unless you are running C.Mags, or HT there is almost no reason you wouldn't have 5 red and 5 green by the time you get 12 yellow.

Phaserhawk

IceIX gave us Fury Avenger Assemble numbers

Avengers Assemble
Level 70
Captain America: 2 82 strength Protect tiles
Iron Man: 1370 damage to target
Hawkeye: Places 2 Crit tiles
Black Widow: Stuns target for 3 turns
Hulk: 685 damage to all enemies

Level 270
Captain America: 2 163 strength Protect tiles
Iron Man: 2720 damage to target
Hawkeye: Places 2 Crit tiles
Black Widow: Stuns target for 3 turns
Hulk: 1360 damage to all enemies

Phantron, go to work as only you can do.

Unknown

The logic doesn't change but now it's easier to compute.

We'll ignore level 4 of Escape Plan versus Avengers Assemble because those two are really intangible effect that's hard to compare. I think steal more AP is probably better than stunning the guy you're trying to kill but it's hard to say for sure, since a lot of time you may end up stealing a color without that much AP.

Assume on offense you always remember to have 5 green AP before firing the ability, and that you never attempt to destroy your own Escape Plan tile, then we get a pretty simple breakdown. Avengers Assembles adds 1360X3 = 4080 damage (and benefits from strike tiles, which may matter a lot because Fury creates very powerful strike tiles) and call it 4000 damage. On offense, since Escape Plan tile cannot be protected by any method (it's placed in a random spot), we'll assume its chance of being destroyed is completely random, and assume AI destroys 4 tiles per turn. At 3 turn CD the AI gets 3 shots, so there's a 1-(12/64) = 81.25% chance it'll get destroyed. At 2 turn CD it's 1-(8/64) = 87.5%. So the improvement is (87.5/81.25) = 7.7% to Escape Plan, versus a straight up 4000 damage improvement in Avengers Assemble. If these benefits are equal, that'd imply Escape Plan does 4000/0.077 = 52000 damage (7.7% of 52K is 4000 damage). Now we probably don't need to do any math to see that Escape Plan most definitely does not do 52000 damage, so getting the extra 4K damage is overwhelmingly better for offense.

On defense the situation is likely reversed. We'll start with Escape Plan first. Let's say there's a 25% chance that the CD will be immediately destroyed by either being placed in a bad spot (immediately matchable) or the enemy have a move that can shake up the board if not outright destroy it (like Magnetic Field, though in that case the chance it'll be destroyed is more like 100%). Further, since your AI has nothing against matching its own Escape Plan, the chance of it being destroyed by random matches is now doubled, so we get:

3 turn CD: 1 - (0.25) - (24/64) = 37.5%
2 turn CD: 1 - (0.25) - (16/64) = 50%

So the improvement is now (50/37.5) = 33.3%

Using the same logic of setting both ability equal we get that Escape Plan has to do 12000 damage for those two to be equal, which may or may not be true (it can certainly do that much damage over the duration of a game). Of course, this completely ignores the fact that your AI might not hold 5 green AP in the first place. For the sake of simplicity we'll say that you always have enough time to gather 5 green AP before you get 12 yellow, so there's never a case of not enough green AP if it's not spent on something else. If a green ability costs X green AP, then you'll always have 5 or more green AP if your current AP is between 5 to X-1, and you'll never have 5 green AP if your green AP is X to X+4, so the chance of having 5 or more green AP is (X-5)/X. So putting this into an equation for the popular characters we get:

Daken: Will have 5 green AP 100% of time, so Escape Plan needs to do 12000 damage.
Thor: Will have 5 green AP 64% of the time, so Escape Plan needs to do 12000 * 64% = 7714 damage
Sentry: Will have 5 green AP 29% of the time, so Escape Plan needs to do 12000 * 29% = 3429 damage

Note that if there are more than one green consuming characters you should take the guy with the cheaper green ability to compute the cost.

In Sentry's case, Escape Plan is better than Avenger's Assemble 100% of the time (3429 is less than the initial damage of Escape Plan).

So the overall summary I get is:

Avengers Assemble is overwhelmingly better on offense than Escape Plan.

Avengers Assemble is probably better than Escape Plan on defense if you have no one who can consume green on your team (but this would likely be a bad team to begin with).

Escape Plan is overwhelmingly better on defense if there are any other guys who can consume green AP on your team (because the AI will likely not hold 5 green AP).

I figure this is obvious but will add it here just in case. Avengers Assemble is overwhelmingly better on defense if you're fighting someone who can get rid of Escape Plan 100% of the time, like Magneto or Falcon. Even someone like Captain America should be considered as having nearly 100% chance to get rid of it since Escape Plan is very expensive. In terms of tradeoff, the value of the 5th cover in Escape Plan goes up as the chance of Escape Plan getting destroyed increases, which may seem counterintuitive but on offense, it's really hard to lose Escape Plan which is why shaving a turn off doesn't really matter, but of course once the chance of Escape Plan getting destroyed hits 100% then there's no value in the 5th cover for Escape Plan either.

Phaserhawk

Thanks phantron for another awesome analysis. If you can keep green costs in the high end than AA is the superior offensive and defensive option. Assuming one chooses to always run Hood with Fury. You only need a red/green user. Patch could safely be inserted but you can't guarantee the green. Thor would keep green safe but not red. Maybe the new X-Force will provide options. Sentry would never let u cast AA. However Thor could cast Thunderstrike instead of AI casting AA (which isn't a bad thing). Thor is probably the strongest pairing as he provides an equally powerful character to deal with, and gives you an outlet for yellow if fury is destroyed.

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

Thanks phantron for another awesome analysis. If you can keep green costs in the high end than AA is the superior offensive and defensive option. Assuming one chooses to always run Hood with Fury. You only need a red/green user. Patch could safely be inserted but you can't guarantee the green. Thor would keep green safe but not red. Maybe the new X-Force will provide options. Sentry would never let u cast AA. However Thor could cast Thunderstrike instead of AI casting AA (which isn't a bad thing). Thor is probably the strongest pairing as he provides an equally powerful character to deal with, and gives you an outlet for yellow if fury is destroyed.

For a 9green AP ability the chance the AI will have enough would be 4/9 = 44% which puts breakeven point at 5333 damage for Escape Plan, which it should easily surpass given its initial damage is about 4K.

Only Thor (14) and GSBW (19) have green ability expensive enough to even give you a reasonable shot at having 5 green AP while on defense. The % calculated probably overestimates the chance the AI will have 5 green AP since I assume that between whatever ability usage you'd always have at least 5 green AP before you collected 12 yellow, which isn't a terrible assumption but is certainly not always true, but trying to model how likely the AI will pick up at least 5 green AP before collecting 12 yellow AP would be borderline impossible.

There's no need to worry about saving red because we're only concerned with the tradeoff of extra covers in Escape Plan versus Avengers Assemble here. It doesn't matter if red is never usable relative to Escape Plan because you get the Ironman part for free, so it doesn't factor into the tradeoff at all. This is why I also calculated all damage in terms of 'what Escape plan has to do', which makes the computation independent of what Avengers Assemble can do.

I didn't consider the color conflict because that changes with every game update and event, but when considering color coverage Escape Plan has a general advantage over Avengers Assemble because great purple powers are hard to find while great yellow powers are relatively easy (Thor/Sentry), though earlier someone made the argument that maybe doubling up on a killer yellow power isn't a bad idea either, especially if games become less lopsided so that you would have to worry about cases where Sentry/Thor is downed.

Phaserhawk

Red isn't free, only Captain America's is free as it's built into the skill, you still need to have red to get IM's dmg.

vudu3

Does Fury benefit much from bringing him to level 270 or is he like X-Force where the he stops gaining much power after level 220-ish?

I have a 4/5/3 Fury sitting at level 70 that I could bring up to level 249.