Answers To The 8 Questions About Vaulting (5/2/17)

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  • MissChinchMissChinch Age Unconfirmed Posts: 509 Critical Contributor
    sh81 said:
    Bowgentle said:
    sh81 said:
    Bowgentle said:
    sh81 said:


    CP.  Which drips in real slow, allows me a pull every few days.


    I don't get this.
    2 CP from Burito, daily = 14 per week.
    2 CP per PVE sub, daily = 14 per week.
    25 CP from PVE prog = 25 per week (at least).
    10 CP from 575 PVP 3 times per week = 30 per week.

    That's 83 CP per week without factoring in champ rewards - 4 classic pulls.

    How can you only pull a LT every few days?

    I cant do the 575 PVP for starters.

    And if I dont go for the 25 LT how am I supposed to champ my new 4*s super fast as Fightmastermpq  expects?

    Im essentially in between 3 and 4*.  My 3s are all champed, my 4s no where near as a whole.

    I cant do the optimal grind of initial clears on the beginning of a sub, late grind at the end because I simply dont have the muscle to make 10 health packs last 7 clears straight.

    So I end up throwing a clear in on about 12 hours, meaning only 2 at the end.  Which I can manage, but it effectively rules me out of 4* rewards.

    Being in this situation rules out PVP entirely, unless we have a 48hour sub in which case I have opportunity.

    Hm, looking at your roster, that leveled Phoenix and the other leveled 5s aren't doing you any favours in PVP.

    No need to do 7 PVE clears straight, the 25 CP only requires 4 clears whenever - plus 2 more clears on the CP nodes. You should be able to do that in a 24 hour span, easily?

    If you want to cover 4s just pull classic tokens, latest are for people who want to cover 5s.
    Dont get me wrong, I make the progression rewards with time to spare.

    But....  To place as high as possible in PVE it effectively rules me out of PVP meaning that extra CP doesnt flow my way.

    AND even though I do my best in PVE, 4* dont come my way through placement either...


    Now, just cause I'm curious, because I think we're pretty close @sh81 I've just recently been able to add 575 pvp in, and make it on more events than not...


    Of the CP available you estimate you get:


    PvE:

     - node clear (2 x day max) = 2 x day

     - sub placement( 5? x day) = 0 x day

     - event progression (25 x event) = 25 x event

     - event placement (10? x event) = 0 x event

    DDQ:

     - buritto (2 x day) = 2 x day

    PvP

     - progression (25 x event) = 0 x event

     - placement (? x event) = 0 x event

    Other

     - 2* Champ rewards = 4? x day

     - 3* Champ rewards = 2? x day

     - Intercepts = 2? x day


    Now for LTs

    - DDQ tacos (3/300 x day) = 3/300 x day  (assuming you do all your ddq)

    - DDQ crash (1 x 5days) = .5? x 5days  (is half the crashes too much to assume?)

    - Event rewards (x out of 80?) = 1/80 x day  (really hard to estimate)


    That would be 12 CP per day, plus 25 every time a PvE event ends, they run between 3-7 days ?  Say just over 4 days on average and youre looking at an additional 6 CP per day.

    Theres a massive amount of generalizing going on, but that's around 18CP a day if you go that hard every day.  Not much room to catch up, but IMO in the realm of "it might not suck once these heroes with abbreviated vault time flush out" 

    Hopefully the crash and extremely infrequent lucky taco LT pull help to push you over 1 pull per day average.  You certainly cant afford to hoard much for better chances of covering 5*s if you want to stay current with covering the featured 12 4*s .  Making any progress on the backlog is going to be rough without placement bonuses.


    I probably botched the CP amounts...  hows it look?


  • JaedenkaalJaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    If you're getting the 25 CP for completing the event progression you should also get a 4* cover every... you said 4 days on average? And 12/48 times that cover will also be for someone in the tokens (on average, all other things being equal, which is what we're assuming here).

    And they include new releases in progression rewards less than a week after their release so that one is basically guaranteed. They are the required character for that event, sure, but it is easily possible to get enough points to get the cover before the last day (except on DP vs MPQ maybe).
    If that means giving up 15 CP then that's probably still a fair trade, but its also possible to get the 15 CP at the end even if you just got the required character; I've done it several times now.
  • FightmastermpqFightmastermpq Age Unconfirmed Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    edited May 2017
    Starfury said:
    smkspy said:
    Starfury said:
    It's 5.4 covers per day, just so you know the definition of "hardcore player".
    Of 4 stars?
    113 covers * 12 characters / 36 weeks -> 37 covers per week.
    That's what Fightmaster's hardcore player would need to reach if he's to get his 4* to 370 before they're vaulted.
    I edited to clarify.  I'm talking about the hardest of hardcore players, not just someone that plays a lot, but the top 1% of the top 1%.  Not everyone should be able to get 370s, but if that handful of players at the top end can pull in 113 covers in 36 weeks, then anyone actively trying to transition (i.e. NOT a casual player) should easily be able to get 13 covers in 36 weeks.

    And for the record, I don't even really consider myself to be very hardcore.  I often play PvP for an hour to hit 1200 and then shield out.  I rarely play a full PvE competitively (for T10 or better), but I do try to always get progression in PvE and as many green checks as possible.  I typically miss lightning rounds completely, but when I do stumble upon them I only play the seeds.  So I could be playing a lot more, but yet I am still able to pull in enough ISO to consistently champ a 4* every week, and right now it's looking like every 4 released from now on will get vaulted probably around level 340-350 for me.


  • AlsmirAlsmir Age Unconfirmed Posts: 508 Critical Contributor
    Bowgentle said:
    sh81 said:


    CP.  Which drips in real slow, allows me a pull every few days.


    I don't get this.
    2 CP from Burito, daily = 14 per week.
    2 CP per PVE sub, daily = 14 per week.
    25 CP from PVE prog = 25 per week (at least).
    10 CP from 575 PVP 3 times per week = 30 per week.

    That's 83 CP per week without factoring in champ rewards - 4 classic pulls.

    How can you only pull a LT every few days?


    Personally I don't hit all the pvp's but the intercepts and champ rewards make up for that...  I think I've been just a hair under 1 pull per day, but I'm nowhere near that when I play what I'd describe as "casual" aka focus on ddq, not make max prog in pve and miss 575 in pvp.


    I think most of this comes down to just what we think of as "casual"...   I think of casual players as not hitting max pve progression, not hitting 575 in pvp, but likely completing just about all the burritos and around half the crashes... They may not hit both CP per pve sub, but I'd think hitting one would still be casual, and they watch intercepts vs spending money to skip them.  I don't think that amounts to many 4* pulls, few enough that would justify a stance against vaulting from a resource flow standpoint.

    Sorry but I don't care if casual players can't progress well into the 4* tier.  Casual players have 1/2/3* characters to play with, and some 4* characters to mess around with.  Casual players don't have a roster filled with champed 4*s.
    Sure, but only if casual players would only play against other casual players in PvE and PvP. As long as this isn't the case, you should care, because if they all quit, because of lack of progress, you will be stuck with only hardcore players and the game will be dying.
  • Milk JugzMilk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
    sh81 said:
    sh81 said:
    Bowgentle said:
    sh81 said:
    Bowgentle said:
    sh81 said:


    CP.  Which drips in real slow, allows me a pull every few days.


    I don't get this.
    2 CP from Burito, daily = 14 per week.
    2 CP per PVE sub, daily = 14 per week.
    25 CP from PVE prog = 25 per week (at least).
    10 CP from 575 PVP 3 times per week = 30 per week.

    That's 83 CP per week without factoring in champ rewards - 4 classic pulls.

    How can you only pull a LT every few days?

    I cant do the 575 PVP for starters.

    And if I dont go for the 25 LT how am I supposed to champ my new 4*s super fast as Fightmastermpq  expects?

    Im essentially in between 3 and 4*.  My 3s are all champed, my 4s no where near as a whole.

    I cant do the optimal grind of initial clears on the beginning of a sub, late grind at the end because I simply dont have the muscle to make 10 health packs last 7 clears straight.

    So I end up throwing a clear in on about 12 hours, meaning only 2 at the end.  Which I can manage, but it effectively rules me out of 4* rewards.

    Being in this situation rules out PVP entirely, unless we have a 48hour sub in which case I have opportunity.

    Hm, looking at your roster, that leveled Phoenix and the other leveled 5s aren't doing you any favours in PVP.

    No need to do 7 PVE clears straight, the 25 CP only requires 4 clears whenever - plus 2 more clears on the CP nodes. You should be able to do that in a 24 hour span, easily?

    If you want to cover 4s just pull classic tokens, latest are for people who want to cover 5s.
    Dont get me wrong, I make the progression rewards with time to spare.

    But....  To place as high as possible in PVE it effectively rules me out of PVP meaning that extra CP doesnt flow my way.

    AND even though I do my best in PVE, 4* dont come my way through placement either...


    Now, just cause I'm curious, because I think we're pretty close @sh81 I've just recently been able to add 575 pvp in, and make it on more events than not...


    Of the CP available you estimate you get:


    PvE:

     - node clear (2 x day max) = 2 x day

     - sub placement( 5? x day) = 0 x day

     - event progression (25 x event) = 25 x event

     - event placement (10? x event) = 0 x event

    DDQ:

     - buritto (2 x day) = 2 x day

    PvP

     - progression (25 x event) = 0 x event

     - placement (? x event) = 0 x event

    Other

     - 2* Champ rewards = 4? x day

     - 3* Champ rewards = 2? x day

     - Intercepts = 2? x day


    Now for LTs

    - DDQ tacos (3/300 x day) = 3/300 x day  (assuming you do all your ddq)

    - DDQ crash (1 x 5days) = .5? x 5days  (is half the crashes too much to assume?)

    - Event rewards (x out of 80?) = 1/80 x day  (really hard to estimate)


    That would be 12 CP per day, plus 25 every time a PvE event ends, they run between 3-7 days ?  Say just over 4 days on average and youre looking at an additional 6 CP per day.

    Theres a massive amount of generalizing going on, but that's around 18CP a day if you go that hard every day.  Not much room to catch up, but IMO in the realm of "it might not suck once these heroes with abbreviated vault time flush out" 

    Hopefully the crash and extremely infrequent lucky taco LT pull help to push you over 1 pull per day average.  You certainly cant afford to hoard much for better chances of covering 5*s if you want to stay current with covering the featured 12 4*s .  Making any progress on the backlog is going to be rough without placement bonuses.


    I probably botched the CP amounts...  hows it look?



    Thats probably about right.  Certainly doesnt seem like 18 a day, I would have guessed less - but a pull every couple of days seems about right so Id say you are accurate.

    And thats pretty well how I play.

    I just finished 7th on Thick as thieves, because of boosted RULK (one of my few champs) and IM40.  Those two players being powered up changed my entire experience.  I didnt have to do the 12 hour clear, and the final grind/new clears were quicker than ever.  Ive spent probably an hour a day less playing, and now I have some 4* rewards, for less effort than I usually make.  I even managed a coupe of PVP over the event.

    Its been a huge amount of fun, but also bittersweet.  Ive just seen how the other half live, and now Im going back to the other side of the tracks...

    Its the first time Ive managed this situation, and its because I was able to champ RULK recently.  Were it not for that I would have ground out a top 50 finish, and added some Patch champ levels and got 2k iso for the effort.

    Had I more useable 4* I would be able to play less, enjoy more, win more.  And yet getting them is a slog to say the least.
    Two things: 1) I started hoarding cp 3 days ago when I had 3, I now have 112. Now that included a few beneficial champ levels on some of my higher 3*s, but you can earn cp at a surprising rate when you start saving it. 

    2) Boosted Rulk and IM40 is the closest thing to PVE cheating you can get, I love that combo!!! 
  • BowgentleBowgentle Posts: 5,038 Chairperson of the Boards
    sh81 said:
    Milk Jugz said:
    sh81 said:
    sh81 said:
    Bowgentle said:
    sh81 said:
    Bowgentle said:
    sh81 said:


    CP.  Which drips in real slow, allows me a pull every few days.


    I don't get this.
    2 CP from Burito, daily = 14 per week.
    2 CP per PVE sub, daily = 14 per week.
    25 CP from PVE prog = 25 per week (at least).
    10 CP from 575 PVP 3 times per week = 30 per week.

    That's 83 CP per week without factoring in champ rewards - 4 classic pulls.

    How can you only pull a LT every few days?

    I cant do the 575 PVP for starters.

    And if I dont go for the 25 LT how am I supposed to champ my new 4*s super fast as Fightmastermpq  expects?

    Im essentially in between 3 and 4*.  My 3s are all champed, my 4s no where near as a whole.

    I cant do the optimal grind of initial clears on the beginning of a sub, late grind at the end because I simply dont have the muscle to make 10 health packs last 7 clears straight.

    So I end up throwing a clear in on about 12 hours, meaning only 2 at the end.  Which I can manage, but it effectively rules me out of 4* rewards.

    Being in this situation rules out PVP entirely, unless we have a 48hour sub in which case I have opportunity.

    Hm, looking at your roster, that leveled Phoenix and the other leveled 5s aren't doing you any favours in PVP.

    No need to do 7 PVE clears straight, the 25 CP only requires 4 clears whenever - plus 2 more clears on the CP nodes. You should be able to do that in a 24 hour span, easily?

    If you want to cover 4s just pull classic tokens, latest are for people who want to cover 5s.
    Dont get me wrong, I make the progression rewards with time to spare.

    But....  To place as high as possible in PVE it effectively rules me out of PVP meaning that extra CP doesnt flow my way.

    AND even though I do my best in PVE, 4* dont come my way through placement either...


    Now, just cause I'm curious, because I think we're pretty close @sh81 I've just recently been able to add 575 pvp in, and make it on more events than not...


    Of the CP available you estimate you get:


    PvE:

     - node clear (2 x day max) = 2 x day

     - sub placement( 5? x day) = 0 x day

     - event progression (25 x event) = 25 x event

     - event placement (10? x event) = 0 x event

    DDQ:

     - buritto (2 x day) = 2 x day

    PvP

     - progression (25 x event) = 0 x event

     - placement (? x event) = 0 x event

    Other

     - 2* Champ rewards = 4? x day

     - 3* Champ rewards = 2? x day

     - Intercepts = 2? x day


    Now for LTs

    - DDQ tacos (3/300 x day) = 3/300 x day  (assuming you do all your ddq)

    - DDQ crash (1 x 5days) = .5? x 5days  (is half the crashes too much to assume?)

    - Event rewards (x out of 80?) = 1/80 x day  (really hard to estimate)


    That would be 12 CP per day, plus 25 every time a PvE event ends, they run between 3-7 days ?  Say just over 4 days on average and youre looking at an additional 6 CP per day.

    Theres a massive amount of generalizing going on, but that's around 18CP a day if you go that hard every day.  Not much room to catch up, but IMO in the realm of "it might not suck once these heroes with abbreviated vault time flush out" 

    Hopefully the crash and extremely infrequent lucky taco LT pull help to push you over 1 pull per day average.  You certainly cant afford to hoard much for better chances of covering 5*s if you want to stay current with covering the featured 12 4*s .  Making any progress on the backlog is going to be rough without placement bonuses.


    I probably botched the CP amounts...  hows it look?



    Thats probably about right.  Certainly doesnt seem like 18 a day, I would have guessed less - but a pull every couple of days seems about right so Id say you are accurate.

    And thats pretty well how I play.

    I just finished 7th on Thick as thieves, because of boosted RULK (one of my few champs) and IM40.  Those two players being powered up changed my entire experience.  I didnt have to do the 12 hour clear, and the final grind/new clears were quicker than ever.  Ive spent probably an hour a day less playing, and now I have some 4* rewards, for less effort than I usually make.  I even managed a coupe of PVP over the event.

    Its been a huge amount of fun, but also bittersweet.  Ive just seen how the other half live, and now Im going back to the other side of the tracks...

    Its the first time Ive managed this situation, and its because I was able to champ RULK recently.  Were it not for that I would have ground out a top 50 finish, and added some Patch champ levels and got 2k iso for the effort.

    Had I more useable 4* I would be able to play less, enjoy more, win more.  And yet getting them is a slog to say the least.
    Two things: 1) I started hoarding cp 3 days ago when I had 3, I now have 112. Now that included a few beneficial champ levels on some of my higher 3*s, but you can earn cp at a surprising rate when you start saving it. 

    2) Boosted Rulk and IM40 is the closest thing to PVE cheating you can get, I love that combo!!! 

    1) Ive been saving about 3 days, I have 59.  So pretty much spot on with @MissChinch prediction.  This includes 9 cp coming in from my alliance.  I realise its peaks and troughs.  In a day or two Ill pick up 15 from progression on simulator and it will suddenly feel like progress, but Id say Im pretty well on course as predicted.  And actually thats a little faster than I thought.

    2) I felt like a proper 4* player, that added punch completely changed the game for me.  I can understand how posters well into the 4*/5* status can throw out "Just finish top 10..." in that seemingly patronising way now.  Silly point really, but the game really is much easier and more enjoyable when you have the roster to play.  And it just reinforces the disparity for me between being stuck in the 3*s looking up.


    Word of warning: If you enjoy PVE - never move into 5* land.
  • JaedenkaalJaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    sh81 said:
    I have no interest in it at all at the minute!

    I have in the past been tempted to sell my 5s for scaling purposes, but with the move to scaling being based on SCL I see no point.
    Don't be surprised if it's based on SCL AND roster. Just sayin' ;)
  • Milk JugzMilk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
    I have Phoenix at 420 with 11 covers and my PVE scaling is definitely a little higher than my alliance mates with no leveled 5*s, but I can still easily get it done with boosted 4*s, for simulator I'm running Drax, Wasp, and Chulk- all champed- to great effect. One person in my alliance has 2 champ 5*s and he still runs his 4*s for PVE. The 5* problem seems to be more in PVP than PVE

    -But I'm also basing this on only having 1 or 2 high level 5*s, so it could change more when you get 3,4,5, etc....
  • brollbroll Posts: 4,731 Chairperson of the Boards
    sh81 said:
    I have no interest in it at all at the minute!

    I have in the past been tempted to sell my 5s for scaling purposes, but with the move to scaling being based on SCL I see no point.
    Don't be surprised if it's based on SCL AND roster. Just sayin' ;)
    So the worst of both worlds, yeah that sounds like something they'd do.  Either that or pay for the scaling you want....
  • optimus2861optimus2861 Posts: 1,232 Chairperson of the Boards
    Milk Jugz said:

    2) Boosted Rulk and IM40 is the closest thing to PVE cheating you can get, I love that combo!!!
    4* Luke Cage (5 black) plus 3* Doctor Strange (5 yellow) is pretty darn close too. Add Blade (either) for more fun.
  • DauthiDauthi Age Unconfirmed Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    edited May 2017
    Brigby said:
    @MissChinch

    Once I pass along this report to the developers, and hear back from them, I will be sure to update the community with any information I can communicate.
    I just had my long time Commander of our lowbie alliance quit. She was really excited she finished hulkbuster and championed him as her first 4* champion, until I told her the bad news about vaulting.

    She quit MPQ today because all that work was basically for nothing. I hope it gets relayed how much vaulting has harmed MPQs player base and that a fix should be priority.
  • JaedenkaalJaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    I'm sure they don't need anecdotes to tell them how many players have stopped playing in the last two months, and if that's an increase in the average loss of players compared to previously.
  • DarthDeVoDarthDeVo Posts: 2,153 Chairperson of the Boards
    Brigby said:
    Hi Everyone. Just wanted to give a quick update. I completed my analysis and sent over a report to the developers last night, so rest assured that the ball is still rolling and we're still discussing this topic for sure. 

    If I hear of any information I can communicate, I'll be sure to update everyone with that news.
    You are a gentleman and a scholar, sir. Thanks for all your work and updates! 
  • DauthiDauthi Age Unconfirmed Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    edited May 2017
    I'm sure they don't need anecdotes to tell them how many players have stopped playing in the last two months, and if that's an increase in the average loss of players compared to previously.
    Oh, I mistook this for a forum. My bad.

    Thanks for the quick response Brigby! I let her know there is hope at the end of this tunnel.
  • BrigbyBrigby ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 7,757 Site Admin
    *Please keep all comments on-topic and constructive. Thank you!
  • DauthiDauthi Age Unconfirmed Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    edited May 2017
    New McG said:
    Dauthi said:
    I'm sure they don't need anecdotes to tell them how many players have stopped playing in the last two months, and if that's an increase in the average loss of players compared to previously.
    Oh, I mistook this for a forum. My bad.

    Thanks for the quick response Brigby! I let her know there is hope at the end of this tunnel.
    Removed Mocking / Insult Post -Brigby
    While off subject, I think it might be important to clarify what a forum is and why Brigby created this specific conversation in it.

    A forum is to allow people to come together and share the views, which include personal experiences, on a subject. That's why you see this often in political forums held in communities. They are set up so your voice can be heard, so it's silly to tell someone their personal experience on a subject is invalid for any reason, especially considering others are probably experiencing something similar.

    While anecdotal, it is a very real experience happening to someone in the community and I would imagine all input is valuable to the developers at all levels of play. The player I referred to is someone who plays very casually, which is noted by her obtaining her first 4 star and it being Hulkbuster. I'm not sure how many players voiced their opinion who are also at her level of play, but I felt I should add it to the conversation.

    Mocking others is also not conducive for conversation.
  • Daredevil217Daredevil217 Posts: 2,883 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2017
    Brigby said:
    Hi Everyone. Just wanted to give a quick update. I completed my analysis and sent over a report to the developers last night, so rest assured that the ball is still rolling and we're still discussing this topic for sure. 

    If I hear of any information I can communicate, I'll be sure to update everyone with that news.
    Hey @Brigby,

    I want to once again thank you for the work you do. I know the report has been sent on, but I think this data here is important (to include in a sticky note or just bring up in the next devs meeting):

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/64360/how-has-hoarding-changed-for-you-since-vaulting/p1

    Of people who have felt the need to change their hoarding habits 64% report hoarding MORE while only 5% report hoarding less. I think that is pretty significant and overall makes the game less fun.  I like that they recognize the embargo on champ rewards as problematic and am hoping they see this for the problem it is as well (which did not seem to be the case based on their response to my question in the OP)
  • spatenflootspatenfloot Posts: 646 Critical Contributor
    Brigby said:
    Hi Everyone. Just wanted to give a quick update. I completed my analysis and sent over a report to the developers last night, so rest assured that the ball is still rolling and we're still discussing this topic for sure. 

    If I hear of any information I can communicate, I'll be sure to update everyone with that news.
    Hey @Brigby,

    I want to once again thank you for the work you do. I know the report has been sent on, but I think this data here is important (to include in a sticky note or just bring up in the next devs meeting):

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/64360/how-has-hoarding-changed-for-you-since-vaulting/p1

    Of people who have felt the need to change their hoarding habits 64% report hoarding MORE while only 5% report hoarding less. I think that is pretty significant and overall makes the game less fun.  I like that they recognize the embargo on champ rewards as problematic and am hoping they see this for the problem it is as well (which did not seem to be the case based on their response to my question in the OP)
    They wouldn't need to hoard if the devs would significantly increase iso flow.
  • Arix90Arix90 Posts: 244 Tile Toppler
    edited May 2017
    I think packs should be 20 characters the newest 12 and 8 classic 4*s cycling every season That would be a good compromise giving access / champion levels to the older characters but still highlighting the new ones
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