Answers To The 8 Questions About Vaulting (5/2/17)

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  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
    Jaedenkaal said:
    Milk Jugz said:
    The treadmill analogy isn't that bad as you have put it. Problem is that when one of the latest comes off the treadmill they are now stagnant. If you champ them before they come off once they do you have a bunch of characters stuck in the 275 to 285 range. Vaulting kills champ levels
    Demi and I both agree with you that the "vaulting old characters" system and the "championing" system are at odds with each other, and none of us are satisfied with the current state in that regard.
    Read my discussion in GD- Titled "Clearance levels vs vaulting/ bonus heroes". I think that is a much better solution and I have yet to have an argument against me...... I want one, TINYKITTY!!!
  • Fightmastermpq
    Fightmastermpq Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    JVReal said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    JVReal said:
    I honestly wouldn't object to vaulting so much, if I had access to a larger flow of Iso to level the characters to minimize wasted covers.  It feels terrible having to sell covers of 4* characters that I know will eventually end up vaulted around the time I can afford to champ them.

    Buying Iso is not a solution, and with getting 3 intercepts a week... that is not feasible option.
    I just don't think this is a real problem.  Now you only need ISO for 12 characters and you have 8 months to get it before they get vaulted.  There is no way it takes you that long to get the ISO you need.  I can see you have 20 champed 4s, which means that under the old system you needed ISO for 23 characters to minimize wasted covers.  Vaulting has actually helped your ISO needs, not hurt them.
    I'm glad it's not a real problem for you.
    I still need the same amount of Iso, but I now need it significantly sooner.  It had been a long time since I had a cover die on the vine, but since vaulting, I've had to sell many 4* covers that I just couldn't use (2/5/3) or the character is level 150 and I suddenly have 13 covers and have to push the character to 270 in 14 days... along with the other 2 characters whose covers are in queue that now have to get to 270 in the same 14 days.  If only those covers lasted 8 months in my queue.

    This exact number of pulls that I have made since vaulting has gone into effect would previously have been distributed among all my 4* characters, half of which I could apply immediately as Champ levels, and the other half I could apply as needed to ones where they were under 13 covers.  There was the occasional cover that was sold because I just couldn't pull the correct 13th cover (I'm looking at you Yellow Peggy and Blue JG) despite having the saved Iso to max them immediately.

    I'd been having a healthy supply of 250K iso on hand on the average allowing me to up the levels as I received covers, spreading out that Iso need so that when it came time to champ, I didn't need more than 100K a pop to champ that character and use those future covers.

    Suddenly it's like all debts have been called in.  Now that my cover range has been limited to 12 instead of 40+ I am in a crunch of needing Iso immediately and not having it.  I've sold several 4* Blades, a couple Wasps before champing her, and sitting on 3 4* Luke Cages.  I just champed Nova with the boss event because I definitely didn't want those vaulted covers to go to waste... he wasn't on top of my list of guys to champ, but putting him into the vault made him a character I had to champ or lose.

    I'm no statistician, I don't crunch hypothetical numbers, but I can tell you that this has made me feel the Iso shortage more, it brought into the open more than it was before.  I've sold more covers during this time than before, and those covers hurt more knowing that after a certain time I may never pull them again.

    I love Bonus Heroes, when I pull them, and it's supposed to be a Bonus... thus the name Bonus Hero, not Replacement For Something We Took Away Hero... It does allow me to focus on the one character that's been eluding me.  Great concept, but if I had to give them up to undo vaulting, I would.  I'd rather not, but I would.
    I'm glad it's not a real problem for you either.  I just wish you understood statistics or hypothetical numbers well enough to see it.  It might be painful at first, or require more roster management than you are used to for a while, but it really shouldn't take you very long to get to a point where you have no wasted covers - which I would think you would view as a positive compared to wasting more than half your covers.

    Champing Nova was a waste.  Why on Earth are you worried about potential waste of covers for a character that you can't pull?  Meanwhile you are pulling and selling covers for Bl4de and C4ge instead of champing them?  That's not a long term ISO shortage problem, that's just poor roster management.
  • GrumpySmurf1002
    GrumpySmurf1002 Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2017
    Milk Jugz said:

    Or my buddy that is strictly casual F2P, now when he pulls a LT he doesn't have the HP to roster the new character and can't get covers for the ones he has already rostered. Should he sell the old ones for the new ones?? At his play rate the 4* tier is completely out of reach now as the new ones will be vaulted before he has them fully covered. He only has Spiderwoman and Gwenpool rostered from latest. The other 10 4s he has rostered are vaulted.
    1) If your buddy is in a spot where he can't afford the new character, he shouldn't be pulling.  That was true both before and after vaulting.  Covers expire, tokens don't.  
    2) If your buddy can't cover the newest 4* in the ~8 months they'll be in tokens, I'm not sure transitioning the old way was any more realistic than transitioning this way.
  • Wjohnson992
    Wjohnson992 Posts: 175 Tile Toppler
    Fightmastermpq said:
    JVReal said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    JVReal said:
    I honestly wouldn't object to vaulting so much, if I had access to a larger flow of Iso to level the characters to minimize wasted covers.  It feels terrible having to sell covers of 4* characters that I know will eventually end up vaulted around the time I can afford to champ them.

    Buying Iso is not a solution, and with getting 3 intercepts a week... that is not feasible option.
    I just don't think this is a real problem.  Now you only need ISO for 12 characters and you have 8 months to get it before they get vaulted.  There is no way it takes you that long to get the ISO you need.  I can see you have 20 champed 4s, which means that under the old system you needed ISO for 23 characters to minimize wasted covers.  Vaulting has actually helped your ISO needs, not hurt them.
    I'm glad it's not a real problem for you.
    I still need the same amount of Iso, but I now need it significantly sooner.  It had been a long time since I had a cover die on the vine, but since vaulting, I've had to sell many 4* covers that I just couldn't use (2/5/3) or the character is level 150 and I suddenly have 13 covers and have to push the character to 270 in 14 days... along with the other 2 characters whose covers are in queue that now have to get to 270 in the same 14 days.  If only those covers lasted 8 months in my queue.

    This exact number of pulls that I have made since vaulting has gone into effect would previously have been distributed among all my 4* characters, half of which I could apply immediately as Champ levels, and the other half I could apply as needed to ones where they were under 13 covers.  There was the occasional cover that was sold because I just couldn't pull the correct 13th cover (I'm looking at you Yellow Peggy and Blue JG) despite having the saved Iso to max them immediately.

    I'd been having a healthy supply of 250K iso on hand on the average allowing me to up the levels as I received covers, spreading out that Iso need so that when it came time to champ, I didn't need more than 100K a pop to champ that character and use those future covers.

    Suddenly it's like all debts have been called in.  Now that my cover range has been limited to 12 instead of 40+ I am in a crunch of needing Iso immediately and not having it.  I've sold several 4* Blades, a couple Wasps before champing her, and sitting on 3 4* Luke Cages.  I just champed Nova with the boss event because I definitely didn't want those vaulted covers to go to waste... he wasn't on top of my list of guys to champ, but putting him into the vault made him a character I had to champ or lose.

    I'm no statistician, I don't crunch hypothetical numbers, but I can tell you that this has made me feel the Iso shortage more, it brought into the open more than it was before.  I've sold more covers during this time than before, and those covers hurt more knowing that after a certain time I may never pull them again.

    I love Bonus Heroes, when I pull them, and it's supposed to be a Bonus... thus the name Bonus Hero, not Replacement For Something We Took Away Hero... It does allow me to focus on the one character that's been eluding me.  Great concept, but if I had to give them up to undo vaulting, I would.  I'd rather not, but I would.
    I'm glad it's not a real problem for you either.  I just wish you understood statistics or hypothetical numbers well enough to see it.  It might be painful at first, or require more roster management than you are used to for a while, but it really shouldn't take you very long to get to a point where you have no wasted covers - which I would think you would view as a positive compared to wasting more than half your covers.

    Champing Nova was a waste.  Why on Earth are you worried about potential waste of covers for a character that you can't pull?  Meanwhile you are pulling and selling covers for Bl4de and C4ge instead of champing them?  That's not a long term ISO shortage problem, that's just poor roster management.
    Is Nova not going to be boosted/essential ever again? I imagine a champed boosted Nova is superior to a champed unboosted Gwenpool. See you are forgetting there is more than 12 4*'s again. Or would you not view selling Nova #14 as a waste?
  • MarkersMake
    MarkersMake Posts: 392 Mover and Shaker
    edited May 2017
    Fightmastermpq said:
    MarkersMake said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    Wjohnson992 said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    JVReal said:
    I honestly wouldn't object to vaulting so much, if I had access to a larger flow of Iso to level the characters to minimize wasted covers.  It feels terrible having to sell covers of 4* characters that I know will eventually end up vaulted around the time I can afford to champ them.

    Buying Iso is not a solution, and with getting 3 intercepts a week... that is not feasible option.
    I just don't think this is a real problem.  Now you only need ISO for 12 characters and you have 8 months to get it before they get vaulted.  There is no way it takes you that long to get the ISO you need.  I can see you have 20 champed 4s, which means that under the old system you needed ISO for 23 characters to minimize wasted covers.  Vaulting has actually helped your ISO needs, not hurt them.

    The iso shortage is worse now. The excuse of "less characters need iso" is irrelevant since the levels of those characters gets more expensive much faster. Any of the theoretical benefit of a reduced character pool is cancelled by the speed of the cost per level increasing.
    Oh, my bad.  I didn't realize it cost more to level the newer characters, I thought all 4*s had the same leveling costs.

    It's a time thing. 

    Right now, in order to keep up with your 4* champing needs, you need to make X ISO per day (40k?). That number is totally achievable. You can keep up with champing 4*s as they get rotated into tokens, even though it might be a bit bumpy to start. We will completely ignore ISO needs for any remaining 3*s that need champing (even though it's completely reasonable for people to begin transitioning before champing every single 3*), as well as any saving up to level/champ 5*s (because that's a long way off). 

    But what if I don't play enough to make X ISO per day? What if I only make X/2 ISO instead?

    Prior to vaulting, it was "hey whatever", right? It just takes me longer to cover my characters, and when I do get them covered, I simply have to wait to champ them until I make enough ISO.

    But with vaulting, I can't do that. If I don't champ them before they become vaulted, then they simply won't get champed, because they'll be removed from tokens at some point.  And then I am left with the choice of either hoarding tokens while I am iso-poor and having characters become vaulted before I can fully cover them, or cashing my tokens in and being forced to sell potentially dozens of covers.

    So yeah, vaulting changed something. Making less iso per day used to simply mean slower progress. Now,  if you are below X ISO per day, it also means either more wasted covers, or fewer champable characters. 

    That's a valid complaint. Not everyone can put in 2-3+ hours of MPQ per day to make that much ISO. And regardless of the specific number of hours it takes each person to make that critical ISO amount per day, the game shouldn't *penalize* you if you don't put in a certain minimum daily play time. Vaulting means that it does. 
    If you don't make enough to keep up with the release rate then none of this matters.  If you can't keep up with the release rate then the number of 4*s on your roster that are not champed will continue to grow indefinitely, and under the old system it would eventually approach your earn rate.  That is to say that if you generate 50% of the ISO needed to keep up with the release rate then over time the number of 4*s you have champed will approach 50%.  With vaulting you get to that 50% number within 12 releases (faster if you prioritize the newer 4s) regardless of how many 4s you had champed previously.  Just like before you would have to pick and choose which 50% of the characters you will champ and which you will discard, that choice will be the same today.
    No, that choice will be made for you, when characters are removed from tokens. 

    Before, that kind of player could CHOOSE who to champ. Now, they really can't. 
  • GrumpySmurf1002
    GrumpySmurf1002 Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2017
    MissChinch said:

    Agreed, but add to that anyone not yet transitioning that enjoys collecting and playing with their favorite characters that are vaulted.
    If they're not transitioning to the 4* tier, then they're only affected by the 3* tier, and 3s still flow pretty rampantly. Yeah, there's a handful of characters that are reduced to their PvPs and PvE rewards, but the subset of people who really want to only use those characters has gotta be tiny.

    Sure, once they do transition they're limited to what characters are available in tokens, but having 50+ characters in the tokens wasn't really a solution to speeding that up, nor was it a guarantee that you'll develop the specific characters you're looking for anyway.

    Reality is, this game has never been kind to those who have favorites, because things being a big Colossus fan doesn't mean much when he can't progress with you into the higher tiers of the game.
  • Jaedenkaal
    Jaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    Milk Jugz said:
    Read my discussion in GD- Titled "Clearance levels vs vaulting/ bonus heroes". I think that is a much better solution and I have yet to have an argument against me...... I want one, TINYKITTY!!!
    I don't think you'll get one from too many players. Who would argue against opt-in better access to higher tiers?

    Just off the top of my head, they could allow players to swap out some (half? they likely won't go for all) of the available characters for characters of your choosing. Doesn't really even have to be champions. So your token draws could be the 6 newest 4*s, plus 6 4*s of your choice. They could tie this ability to SCL8 or 9 if they're worried about it being more complex, which it absolutely would be. I'm not even sure bonus heroes would be necessary at this point, although I've become rather fond of it.

    I don't know how feasible a "build your own token" system would be, although it seems like a reasonable "best of both worlds" given the little amount of thought I've put into it. 6 newest characters are just as plentiful as they are today, and the other 6 are presumably exactly what you want, so at the absolute worst your tokens are 50% wasted (cover color notwithstanding, which an independent issue) and that would seem to be a rare case to me.

    The other bonus about this system is that is also addresses the issue with 5* dilution at least a little. I presume they'd like Latest Legends alone under this proposed system (3 newest only) but then you'd still be able to pick which 5*s you see, to some limited extent, in the Classic Legends
  • Fightmastermpq
    Fightmastermpq Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    Milk Jugz said:
    Jaedenkaal said:
    Milk Jugz said:
    The treadmill analogy isn't that bad as you have put it. Problem is that when one of the latest comes off the treadmill they are now stagnant. If you champ them before they come off once they do you have a bunch of characters stuck in the 275 to 285 range. Vaulting kills champ levels
    Demi and I both agree with you that the "vaulting old characters" system and the "championing" system are at odds with each other, and none of us are satisfied with the current state in that regard.
    Read my discussion in GD- Titled "Clearance levels vs vaulting/ bonus heroes". I think that is a much better solution and I have yet to have an argument against me...... I want one, TINYKITTY!!!
    I gave you one....sort of.  Hard to argue against more rewards for the same effort.......
  • Jaedenkaal
    Jaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    MarkersMake said:

    No, that choice will be made for you, when characters are removed from tokens. 

    Before, that kind of player could CHOOSE who to champ. Now, they really can't. 
    Of the five 4*s I championed prior to bonus heroes and vaulting, I had choice about which one to champion a total of 0 times. They were championed because they were the first 5 characters to get to 13 covers, and I had no control over that process whatsoever.

     Since bonus heroes and vaulting, I have championed 5 more 4*s, and of those, three of them (all vaulted) were championed because I choose to make them my bonus hero. I have 7 more 4*s at 12 covers, and I'll be choosing which of them to champion, and in what order.
  • Fightmastermpq
    Fightmastermpq Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    Wjohnson992 said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    JVReal said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    JVReal said:
    I honestly wouldn't object to vaulting so much, if I had access to a larger flow of Iso to level the characters to minimize wasted covers.  It feels terrible having to sell covers of 4* characters that I know will eventually end up vaulted around the time I can afford to champ them.

    Buying Iso is not a solution, and with getting 3 intercepts a week... that is not feasible option.
    I just don't think this is a real problem.  Now you only need ISO for 12 characters and you have 8 months to get it before they get vaulted.  There is no way it takes you that long to get the ISO you need.  I can see you have 20 champed 4s, which means that under the old system you needed ISO for 23 characters to minimize wasted covers.  Vaulting has actually helped your ISO needs, not hurt them.
    I'm glad it's not a real problem for you.
    I still need the same amount of Iso, but I now need it significantly sooner.  It had been a long time since I had a cover die on the vine, but since vaulting, I've had to sell many 4* covers that I just couldn't use (2/5/3) or the character is level 150 and I suddenly have 13 covers and have to push the character to 270 in 14 days... along with the other 2 characters whose covers are in queue that now have to get to 270 in the same 14 days.  If only those covers lasted 8 months in my queue.

    This exact number of pulls that I have made since vaulting has gone into effect would previously have been distributed among all my 4* characters, half of which I could apply immediately as Champ levels, and the other half I could apply as needed to ones where they were under 13 covers.  There was the occasional cover that was sold because I just couldn't pull the correct 13th cover (I'm looking at you Yellow Peggy and Blue JG) despite having the saved Iso to max them immediately.

    I'd been having a healthy supply of 250K iso on hand on the average allowing me to up the levels as I received covers, spreading out that Iso need so that when it came time to champ, I didn't need more than 100K a pop to champ that character and use those future covers.

    Suddenly it's like all debts have been called in.  Now that my cover range has been limited to 12 instead of 40+ I am in a crunch of needing Iso immediately and not having it.  I've sold several 4* Blades, a couple Wasps before champing her, and sitting on 3 4* Luke Cages.  I just champed Nova with the boss event because I definitely didn't want those vaulted covers to go to waste... he wasn't on top of my list of guys to champ, but putting him into the vault made him a character I had to champ or lose.

    I'm no statistician, I don't crunch hypothetical numbers, but I can tell you that this has made me feel the Iso shortage more, it brought into the open more than it was before.  I've sold more covers during this time than before, and those covers hurt more knowing that after a certain time I may never pull them again.

    I love Bonus Heroes, when I pull them, and it's supposed to be a Bonus... thus the name Bonus Hero, not Replacement For Something We Took Away Hero... It does allow me to focus on the one character that's been eluding me.  Great concept, but if I had to give them up to undo vaulting, I would.  I'd rather not, but I would.
    I'm glad it's not a real problem for you either.  I just wish you understood statistics or hypothetical numbers well enough to see it.  It might be painful at first, or require more roster management than you are used to for a while, but it really shouldn't take you very long to get to a point where you have no wasted covers - which I would think you would view as a positive compared to wasting more than half your covers.

    Champing Nova was a waste.  Why on Earth are you worried about potential waste of covers for a character that you can't pull?  Meanwhile you are pulling and selling covers for Bl4de and C4ge instead of champing them?  That's not a long term ISO shortage problem, that's just poor roster management.
    Is Nova not going to be boosted/essential ever again? I imagine a champed boosted Nova is superior to a champed unboosted Gwenpool. See you are forgetting there is more than 12 4*'s again. Or would you not view selling Nova #14 as a waste?
    Sigh.  If selling #14 Nova allows you to use #14, 15, 16 and more of Bl4de/C4ge then no, it's not a waste - it's the smart thing to do.

    Yes Nova will be boosted/essential again.....with exactly the same frequency as Bl4de/C4ge.
  • MissChinch
    MissChinch Posts: 509 Critical Contributor
    Fightmastermpq said:
    Milk Jugz said:
    Jaedenkaal said:
    Milk Jugz said:
    The treadmill analogy isn't that bad as you have put it. Problem is that when one of the latest comes off the treadmill they are now stagnant. If you champ them before they come off once they do you have a bunch of characters stuck in the 275 to 285 range. Vaulting kills champ levels
    Demi and I both agree with you that the "vaulting old characters" system and the "championing" system are at odds with each other, and none of us are satisfied with the current state in that regard.
    Read my discussion in GD- Titled "Clearance levels vs vaulting/ bonus heroes". I think that is a much better solution and I have yet to have an argument against me...... I want one, TINYKITTY!!!
    I gave you one....sort of.  Hard to argue against more rewards for the same effort.......


    There are a ton of possible solutions that can be tested out in parallel with vaulting, many that don't call for any increase in gross cover acquisition rate. 


    The fact that so many possible solutions exist that marry with the functionality already in production and don't require any rollback of vaulting, and all we've gotten in a few days of a vintage hero store (with a largecat-load of 2*s) is fueling a lot of the frustration.

  • GrumpySmurf1002
    GrumpySmurf1002 Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2017
    Wjohnson992 said:

    Is Nova not going to be boosted/essential ever again? I imagine a champed boosted Nova is superior to a champed unboosted Gwenpool. See you are forgetting there is more than 12 4*'s again. Or would you not view selling Nova #14 as a waste?
    Champed boosted Gwenpool >> champed unboosted Nova too.   Most characters boosted are better than unboosted in the same tier.

    More to the point, a 272-273 Nova that's going to be (thanks to vaulting) stuck there for a while is going to be inferior to a Cage/Blade that can be brought to 280-290-300.

    The choice made there is between selling 1-2 Novas or (potentially) 10-20 of a newer character.  Which do you think is more of a waste?
  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
    Fightmastermpq said:
    Milk Jugz said:
    Jaedenkaal said:
    Milk Jugz said:
    The treadmill analogy isn't that bad as you have put it. Problem is that when one of the latest comes off the treadmill they are now stagnant. If you champ them before they come off once they do you have a bunch of characters stuck in the 275 to 285 range. Vaulting kills champ levels
    Demi and I both agree with you that the "vaulting old characters" system and the "championing" system are at odds with each other, and none of us are satisfied with the current state in that regard.
    Read my discussion in GD- Titled "Clearance levels vs vaulting/ bonus heroes". I think that is a much better solution and I have yet to have an argument against me...... I want one, TINYKITTY!!!
    I gave you one....sort of.  Hard to argue against more rewards for the same effort.......
    I'm looking for more along the lines of why vaulting/ bonus heroes is better than token dilution with better CL rewards. I think improving, well it's not improving, but finishing the clearance levels is a better solution long term than vaulting. Again dilution wasn't a problem for the 3* tier and still isn't. Our rosters are at the point where we deserve the 4* rewards over the 3* rewards. We've put the time, effort, and, most cases, the money in but where's the return?
  • FokaiHI
    FokaiHI Posts: 272 Mover and Shaker
    Nova was just boosted. He is still a top tier 4*. I don't know if I'll champ him though, even with 4 covers waiting. 
  • GrumpySmurf1002
    GrumpySmurf1002 Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    FokaiHI said:
    Nova was just boosted. He is still a top tier 4*. I don't know if I'll champ him though, even with 4 covers waiting. 
    This completely depends on roster planning.

    If you're hoarding tokens now, for whatever reasons, then there's nothing wrong with targeting and leveling top tier vaulted characters.  Your potential for cover waste is limited that way.

    It's those who are continually opening that *should* reconsider their roster planning.  Repeatedly opening new characters but focusing resources on old ones leads to a ton of waste.
  • MarkersMake
    MarkersMake Posts: 392 Mover and Shaker
    edited May 2017
    Jaedenkaal said:
    MarkersMake said:

    No, that choice will be made for you, when characters are removed from tokens. 

    Before, that kind of player could CHOOSE who to champ. Now, they really can't. 
    Of the five 4*s I championed prior to bonus heroes and vaulting, I had choice about which one to champion a total of 0 times. They were championed because they were the first 5 characters to get to 13 covers, and I had no control over that process whatsoever.

     Since bonus heroes and vaulting, I have championed 5 more 4*s, and of those, three of them (all vaulted) were championed because I choose to make them my bonus hero. I have 7 more 4*s at 12 covers, and I'll be choosing which of them to champion, and in what order.
    Seriously? The game auto-spent your ISO and champed those first 5 without your consent? You didn't have the choice to just leave them at 13 covers and just sell extra covers for them? 

    And because you clearly don't understand the issue here: you are using bonus heroes to finish covering characters that you had almost completely covered before vaulting came into effect. Yay, Bonus Heroes! 

    But that's not what we are talking about. And newer players will have vaulted 4*s with 1-3 covers, not 10-12. So congratulations on your champs that have nothing to do with the point i was making. 
  • Fightmastermpq
    Fightmastermpq Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    Milk Jugz said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    Milk Jugz said:
    Jaedenkaal said:
    Milk Jugz said:
    The treadmill analogy isn't that bad as you have put it. Problem is that when one of the latest comes off the treadmill they are now stagnant. If you champ them before they come off once they do you have a bunch of characters stuck in the 275 to 285 range. Vaulting kills champ levels
    Demi and I both agree with you that the "vaulting old characters" system and the "championing" system are at odds with each other, and none of us are satisfied with the current state in that regard.
    Read my discussion in GD- Titled "Clearance levels vs vaulting/ bonus heroes". I think that is a much better solution and I have yet to have an argument against me...... I want one, TINYKITTY!!!
    I gave you one....sort of.  Hard to argue against more rewards for the same effort.......
    I'm looking for more along the lines of why vaulting/ bonus heroes is better than token dilution with better CL rewards. I think improving, well it's not improving, but finishing the clearance levels is a better solution long term than vaulting. Again dilution wasn't a problem for the 3* tier and still isn't. Our rosters are at the point where we deserve the 4* rewards over the 3* rewards. We've put the time, effort, and, most cases, the money in but where's the return?
    Vaulting works for everyone, CL rewards only work for the 1%.  Dilution is a much larger issue for newer players struggling to make meaningful progress.....the kind of players that aren't topping out the CL rewards and would be missed with your proposed solution.

    What exactly are you proposing?  What rewards would you put where?  Either way you still run into the dilution problem as things just continue to get worse as more characters are released.  At least vaulting fixes the problem at 12 characters over 36 weeks.

    With 3 PvPs/week and nearing 52 4*s easy math says you would only get rewards 3 times/year for any given 4*.  You'd have to be able to give out like 20-30 or maybe more covers at the top end for that system to be better than vaulting.
  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2017
    Fightmastermpq said:
    Milk Jugz said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    Milk Jugz said:
    Jaedenkaal said:
    Milk Jugz said:
    The treadmill analogy isn't that bad as you have put it. Problem is that when one of the latest comes off the treadmill they are now stagnant. If you champ them before they come off once they do you have a bunch of characters stuck in the 275 to 285 range. Vaulting kills champ levels
    Demi and I both agree with you that the "vaulting old characters" system and the "championing" system are at odds with each other, and none of us are satisfied with the current state in that regard.
    Read my discussion in GD- Titled "Clearance levels vs vaulting/ bonus heroes". I think that is a much better solution and I have yet to have an argument against me...... I want one, TINYKITTY!!!
    I gave you one....sort of.  Hard to argue against more rewards for the same effort.......
    I'm looking for more along the lines of why vaulting/ bonus heroes is better than token dilution with better CL rewards. I think improving, well it's not improving, but finishing the clearance levels is a better solution long term than vaulting. Again dilution wasn't a problem for the 3* tier and still isn't. Our rosters are at the point where we deserve the 4* rewards over the 3* rewards. We've put the time, effort, and, most cases, the money in but where's the return?
    Vaulting works for everyone, CL rewards only work for the 1%.  Dilution is a much larger issue for newer players struggling to make meaningful progress.....the kind of players that aren't topping out the CL rewards and would be missed with your proposed solution.

    What exactly are you proposing?  What rewards would you put where?  Either way you still run into the dilution problem as things just continue to get worse as more characters are released.  At least vaulting fixes the problem at 12 characters over 36 weeks.

    With 3 PvPs/week and nearing 52 4*s easy math says you would only get rewards 3 times/year for any given 4*.  You'd have to be able to give out like 20-30 or maybe more covers at the top end for that system to be better than vaulting.
    CL rewards certainly work for more than 1%. In cl8 the top 200 get at least 1 3* cover, that's 20% of every bracket. You could have 9 and 10 where 20% of every bracket gets at least 1 4* cover. And I think tokens should be a bonus for your roster, not to build your roster on. Playing, progressing, and placing should be how you build the meat of your roster.

    Vaulting certainly doesn't work for everyone. It does lock the casual player out of 4* tier. Making the game only good for those of us that serious. I mean, why play if you have no hope of ever covering characters at a certain level and above?

    At least with the old system, as slow as it happens, those characters would get covered. And with bonus heroes the casual player will waste 20 pulls to get that one bonus that works for them. 

    Your forgetting PVE also, rewards there could earn you another 1-3 4*s a week on a 7day event, depending on placement and 2-6 4*s a week on 3-4 day events, again depending on placement 
  • FokaiHI
    FokaiHI Posts: 272 Mover and Shaker
    GrumpySmurf1002 said:
    FokaiHI said:
    Nova was just boosted. He is still a top tier 4*. I don't know if I'll champ him though, even with 4 covers waiting. 
    This completely depends on roster planning.

    If you're hoarding tokens now, for whatever reasons, then there's nothing wrong with targeting and leveling top tier vaulted characters.  Your potential for cover waste is limited that way.

    It's those who are continually opening that *should* reconsider their roster planning.  Repeatedly opening new characters but focusing resources on old ones leads to a ton of waste.
    Hoarding and low ISO seem like the best reasons to champ selectively. My roster is pretty stacked though so I don't feel the struggle as much. I do agree that champing the current 12 is the way to go. 

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