Answers To The 8 Questions About Vaulting (5/2/17)

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  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    For example my daily reward was a heroic 10 pack today. 

    I got 1 3* from it. The champ rewards from the 9 2* I got gave me one additional heroic which got me a 2nd 3*. 

    So that was 11 pulls at a 5% chance of bonus heros while getting none. So I will still say speaking for myself and my alliance, 1 a day is an astronomical rate.
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    tiomono said:
    For example my daily reward was a heroic 10 pack today. 

    I got 1 3* from it. The champ rewards from the 9 2* I got gave me one additional heroic which got me a 2nd 3*. 

    So that was 11 pulls at a 5% chance of bonus heros while getting none. So I will still say speaking for myself and my alliance, 1 a day is an astronomical rate.

    No it wasn't.

    You have a 25% chance to draw a 3* from a heroic.
    IF you draw a 3* you have a 5* chance to trigger a bonus hero.

    So 0.25 * 0.05 = 0.125.

    You have about 1.25% to draw a bonus 3 from a heroic.

    Or something like that, my math is shaky.

  • Quebbster
    Quebbster Posts: 8,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    tiomono said:
    For example my daily reward was a heroic 10 pack today. 

    I got 1 3* from it. The champ rewards from the 9 2* I got gave me one additional heroic which got me a 2nd 3*. 

    So that was 11 pulls at a 5% chance of bonus heros while getting none. So I will still say speaking for myself and my alliance, 1 a day is an astronomical rate.
    You cannot get a bonus hero when you pull a two-star though, so it was really only two of the eleven pulls that were eligble. I Believe the bonus hero chance when you pull a Three-star from a Heroic token is around one in six, so the probability of not getting a bonus hero from two Three-star pulls is around 70%. Hardly Earth shattering.
  • MarkersMake
    MarkersMake Posts: 392 Mover and Shaker
    Bowgentle said:
    tiomono said:
    For example my daily reward was a heroic 10 pack today. 

    I got 1 3* from it. The champ rewards from the 9 2* I got gave me one additional heroic which got me a 2nd 3*. 

    So that was 11 pulls at a 5% chance of bonus heros while getting none. So I will still say speaking for myself and my alliance, 1 a day is an astronomical rate.

    No it wasn't.

    You have a 25% chance to draw a 3* from a heroic.
    IF you draw a 3* you have a 5* chance to trigger a bonus hero.

    So 0.25 * 0.05 = 0.125.

    You have about 1.25% to draw a bonus 3 from a heroic.

    Or something like that, my math is shaky.


    No, that's not quite right.  Here's the quote from Brigby's announcement post about Bonus Heroes:


    *New Update* How did we arrive at 5% for single packs? Here's Anthony from Demiurge with an exclusive drop rate breakdown, using Heroic Packs as an example:
    Anthony, Demiurge wrote:
    Let's take the Heroic Pack. You have a ~71% chance to get a 2-Star, a ~23% chance to get a 3-Star and a ~6% chance to get a 4-Star. When you open a pack, you have an overall 5% chance to get a Bonus Hero. The way we get to that math is to set the chance to get a Bonus Hero per rarity that you draw. When you draw a 3-Star or 4-Star, you have roughly a 17% chance to get a Bonus Hero. When you multiply the chance to get a cover of that rarity with the chance to get a Bonus Hero, you get the [percent] chance to get a Bonus Hero from any one pull from a Heroic pack (~4% for 3-Stars and ~1% for 4-Stars).
    In other words, because 2-Stars don’t have Bonus Heroes available, the Bonus Hero drop rate is actually 17% for 3-Star and 4-Star pulls, and factoring the 2-Stars into the equation is what drops it down to 5%

    That being said, 5% is 1 in 20, so going 0 for 11 isn't surprising.
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    MarkersMake said:
    Bowgentle said:
    tiomono said:
    For example my daily reward was a heroic 10 pack today. 

    I got 1 3* from it. The champ rewards from the 9 2* I got gave me one additional heroic which got me a 2nd 3*. 

    So that was 11 pulls at a 5% chance of bonus heros while getting none. So I will still say speaking for myself and my alliance, 1 a day is an astronomical rate.

    No it wasn't.

    You have a 25% chance to draw a 3* from a heroic.
    IF you draw a 3* you have a 5* chance to trigger a bonus hero.

    So 0.25 * 0.05 = 0.125.

    You have about 1.25% to draw a bonus 3 from a heroic.

    Or something like that, my math is shaky.


    No, that's not quite right.  Here's the quote from Brigby's announcement post about Bonus Heroes:


    *New Update* How did we arrive at 5% for single packs? Here's Anthony from Demiurge with an exclusive drop rate breakdown, using Heroic Packs as an example:
    Anthony, Demiurge wrote:
    Let's take the Heroic Pack. You have a ~71% chance to get a 2-Star, a ~23% chance to get a 3-Star and a ~6% chance to get a 4-Star. When you open a pack, you have an overall 5% chance to get a Bonus Hero. The way we get to that math is to set the chance to get a Bonus Hero per rarity that you draw. When you draw a 3-Star or 4-Star, you have roughly a 17% chance to get a Bonus Hero. When you multiply the chance to get a cover of that rarity with the chance to get a Bonus Hero, you get the [percent] chance to get a Bonus Hero from any one pull from a Heroic pack (~4% for 3-Stars and ~1% for 4-Stars).
    In other words, because 2-Stars don’t have Bonus Heroes available, the Bonus Hero drop rate is actually 17% for 3-Star and 4-Star pulls, and factoring the 2-Stars into the equation is what drops it down to 5%

    That being said, 5% is 1 in 20, so going 0 for 11 isn't surprising.


    Yeah, SSOLU reminded me of that convoluted explanation, my math was indeed wrong.
    Thank you :)

  • Nick441234
    Nick441234 Posts: 1,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    I open every token I get and I get at least 1 3* bonus every couple of days. Sometimes even more often than that. I certainly cant complain with that. 

    The problem comes with the 4* rates, where I've probably had 5 the entire time Bonus Heroes have been around. Even worse than that I've had zero 5* Bonus Heroes. 
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Well however it works out it still feels slow to me and to many others. 

    Dilution was a problem in 4 star land. I am not sure that anyone felt it was an issue for the 3's. I like the idea of bonus hero's, but I feel like the numbers could be tweaked. 

    I do get a lot of tokens daily. But in no way am I anywhere near 20 3* pulls on an average day. I get from tokens maybe 3 a day and that feels like a good day to me. And that includes what I get from tacos and other vault style tokens.

    I am not enraged at the system or anything, I just feel it needs adjusting somehow. 
  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
    I've definitely received numerous 3*s from bonus heroes, but that's not solving the 4* dilution problem. As far as 4*s go I've seen maybe 5, and not a single 5*...... That's still not solving the dilution problem....
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2017
    Fightmastermpq said:
    sh81 said:

    So Ill repeat the solution presented early.

    Maintain vaulting.
    Have a selection of 12 old characters in the classic token.
    Change this selection regularly.

    Yes, we still have vaulting.

    However, we dont have dilution, and we do have access to the covers we want in a meaningful way.

    All it will cost is some patience to wait for your window.  Which, realistically, would be every few weeks.

    No new tokens, no complex self selection, just manage the pool in classics more actively.
    Sorry, but no, this is still dilution.  The only place you can progress on older 5*s is in classic tokens, and now you've arbitrarily tied 4* dilution to progress in that tier.  It doesn't make any sense to have people wait for more dilution in the 5* tier so they can try to avoid dilution at the 4* tier.

    It's no more arbitrary than linking 12 to current.  Or 3 5*s to current.  At least that would be consistent...

    The real way to fix that problem is to break 5* out into a separate store or stores.  Drop the cost of the 4*s slightly and make the 5* store cost 100-150 CP.  Whatever it would take to make the ratio equal out to what it is now.  Any every x number LT you get becomes a 5* LT instead of a regular LT.

    5* and 4* having drastically different rarities and target groups, but being lumped together is part of what makes this so hard to solve, so break them up...  
  • MissChinch
    MissChinch Posts: 509 Critical Contributor
    broll said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    sh81 said:

    So Ill repeat the solution presented early.

    Maintain vaulting.
    Have a selection of 12 old characters in the classic token.
    Change this selection regularly.

    Yes, we still have vaulting.

    However, we dont have dilution, and we do have access to the covers we want in a meaningful way.

    All it will cost is some patience to wait for your window.  Which, realistically, would be every few weeks.

    No new tokens, no complex self selection, just manage the pool in classics more actively.
    Sorry, but no, this is still dilution.  The only place you can progress on older 5*s is in classic tokens, and now you've arbitrarily tied 4* dilution to progress in that tier.  It doesn't make any sense to have people wait for more dilution in the 5* tier so they can try to avoid dilution at the 4* tier.

    It's no more arbitrary than linking 12 to current.  Or 3 5*s to current.  At least that would be consistent...

    The real way to fix that problem is to break 5* out into a separate store or stores.  Drop the cost of the 4*s slightly and make the 5* store cost 100-150 CP.  Whatever it would take to make the ratio equal out to what it is now.  Any every x number LT you get becomes a 5* LT instead of a regular LT.

    5* and 4* having drastically different rarities and target groups, but being lumped together is part of what makes this so hard to solve, so break them up...  


    Following the vaulting logic only a subset of the latest 5*s, based on rarity, should be able to be pulled from tokens, all the rest should come from bonus hero pulls... D3/demi seem to have set that pool at 3 characters.


    So the solution is clearly not to only make the current featured 5*s able to be pulled from tokens and prevent all others from being pulled in any way but bonus heroes...   I'm making an assumption here, but I would imagine that would upset just about everyone, despite the exact same logic being applied "if you cant keep up with the rate they're being released then its a moot point anyway you'll never champion them"


    Prior to vaulting there existed a means to use CP in the most efficient manner to cover 5*s AND give access to all the 4*s (to reap champion rewards, or to progress on all heroes)  The day vaulting hit that was taken away.  Providing all the 4*s as possible options on the classic legendary tokens wont fix this.


    They've wed a single resource to both 4* and 5* advancement and with this change, unless you pay to keep up with the rate new 5*s are released, they've assured you either cripple your 5* progress or you cripple your 4* progress. 

  • mohio
    mohio Posts: 1,690 Chairperson of the Boards
    MissChinch said:

    Following the vaulting logic only a subset of the latest 5*s, based on rarity, should be able to be pulled from tokens, all the rest should come from bonus hero pulls... D3/demi seem to have set that pool at 3 characters.


    They've wed a single resource to both 4* and 5* advancement and with this change, unless you pay to keep up with the rate new 5*s are released, they've assured you either cripple your 5* progress or you cripple your 4* progress. 

    The top part of your quote imo is faulty logic, you cannot equate 4* and 5* tier since obviously they are very different, but also the game treats them wholly different. There are multiple other ways to obtain 4* covers (namely event rewards, but also in various event vaults - DDQ, "normal" PvE, other special events) but the LT still remains the only way you can get 5* covers. The letter from Dave Guskin that leads this whole thread hints that they are (or at least might be) unhappy with the rate at which they are giving out older 4* covers - so yes we don't see them too often, but that doesn't mean they've disappeared from the game, which is what would happen with "vaulted" 5*. 

    The last part of your post I quoted because I completely agree. It's poor design that players are faced with either growing their 4* lineup by opening their tokens but faced with possibly wasting several 5* covers if they are unable to fully cover them, or they have to hoard their tokens waiting for enough to fully cover the 5s when they finally do open them, but that stunts your 4* growth since you can only pull in covers from rewards and the infrequent heroic/event token. I don't want to sound like an entitled brat that wants to have my cake and eat it to, but they really should revisit this issue (and address 5* dilution in classics while you're at it!)
  • JVReal
    JVReal Posts: 1,884 Chairperson of the Boards
    I finally champed 4* Luke, so now its just another 4* blade (13 covers and no iso) and Riri (2/5/4) dying on the vine, and only 20K iso on hand.

    I'm hoarding tokens now.  Tired of selling the latest 12 4*'s because their covers are expiring.
  • shartattack
    shartattack Posts: 370 Mover and Shaker
    Can anyone point me to the thread about when characters rotate out of the latest? hoping spiderwoman and luke don't rotate out at the same time.
  • Quebbster
    Quebbster Posts: 8,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    shartattack said:
    Can anyone point me to the thread about when characters rotate out of the latest? hoping spiderwoman and luke don't rotate out at the same time.
    Unfortunately they should, if Gamora is released next week she will just make the cutoff to be included in the token pool next season. I fully expect all Three new Guardians to be added to the token pool at the same time.
  • shartattack
    shartattack Posts: 370 Mover and Shaker
    That's unfortunate.  I hit 280 for spiderwoman, so i'm pretty done there.  my luke is infinity/3/2, and i wanted to finish him.  
  • NewMcG
    NewMcG Posts: 368 Mover and Shaker
    Quebbster said:
    shartattack said:
    Can anyone point me to the thread about when characters rotate out of the latest? hoping spiderwoman and luke don't rotate out at the same time.
    Unfortunately they should, if Gamora is released next week she will just make the cutoff to be included in the token pool next season. I fully expect all Three new Guardians to be added to the token pool at the same time.
    Three?
  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
    New McG said:
    Quebbster said:
    shartattack said:
    Can anyone point me to the thread about when characters rotate out of the latest? hoping spiderwoman and luke don't rotate out at the same time.
    Unfortunately they should, if Gamora is released next week she will just make the cutoff to be included in the token pool next season. I fully expect all Three new Guardians to be added to the token pool at the same time.
    Three?
    5*SL, 4* R&G, 4* Gamora
  • NewMcG
    NewMcG Posts: 368 Mover and Shaker
    Milk Jugz said:
    New McG said:
    Quebbster said:
    shartattack said:
    Can anyone point me to the thread about when characters rotate out of the latest? hoping spiderwoman and luke don't rotate out at the same time.
    Unfortunately they should, if Gamora is released next week she will just make the cutoff to be included in the token pool next season. I fully expect all Three new Guardians to be added to the token pool at the same time.
    Three?
    5*SL, 4* R&G, 4* Gamora
    I think the 5s don't wait until end of season. They hit 2 weeks after their release event.

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