Answers To The 8 Questions About Vaulting (5/2/17)

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  • ArsaelArsael Age Unconfirmed Posts: 36 Just Dropped In
    I don't like this change.
    I have some character i'd like to complete  and some other I really don't care about it ( they are not a priority ).
    it should be better to have 3 vault : older , middle, newer, and the opportunity to choose. 
  • MissChinchMissChinch Age Unconfirmed Posts: 509 Critical Contributor

    At a rate of new 4*s every 3 weeks (best approximation I can find now) any new characters entering the featured 12 will remain there for 36 weeks (252 days). 

    There is no guarantee of covering them in that time no matter how many tokens you pull.

    If you can pull a token every other day, you'd be looking at 126 tokens about 6/7th of those would be 4*s resulting in 108 pulls from a pool of 12, so you'd be averaging 9 covers for the hero before they retire.  If you play pve you can count on one cover from progression, if you're in a good pve alliance you can count on another as an alliance bonus, (if you're smoking pve to the point that youre getting more covers then you're going to be accruing more than 1 pull every two days).  That brings the average to around 11, which is pretty much the worst case IMO, you'll cover some and you're bound to be painfully short on others if you average 11 covers per hero.

    This assumes you're not crazy enough to use your bonus hero election on a character in the featured 12...


    So if you're in that deadzone of pulling around one every other day then you should seriously think about strategizing how you pull, because pulling like before vaulting was rolled out is gonna get you much closer to the absolute worst cover distribution in the 4* tier possible.

    If I were in that position, I'd just hoard and focus on 5*s because a well developed 4* tier just isnt going to be possible without spending real money, and I'd rather have a select few on the 5* tier than a select few on the 4* tier...  Pros on the 5* tier being more powerful characters, and pros in the 4* tier being that even if you have a small subset of playable characters you might still be seeing more variety in your opponents if you stay 4*...  Really the whole while I'd be hoarding hoping that they fix the mechanics though.

    TL;DR:  Vaulting screws you badly if you only pull 1 LT every other day, dont do that.  You have great odds at fully covering all new 4*s and working on your backlog if you pull about 1 LT per day.  Hoarding is still the best way to well cover 5*s.

  • JaedenkaalJaedenkaal Posts: 3,354 Chairperson of the Boards
    Arsael said:
    I don't like this change.
    I have some character i'd like to complete  and some other I really don't care about it ( they are not a priority ).
    it should be better to have 3 vault : older , middle, newer, and the opportunity to choose. 
    Actually, that's perfect. You can make your priority characters bonus heroes (one at a time per tier, is my standard recommendation) and ignore the ones you don't care about. I guess there's not much you can do if there's characters in the new 12 that you don't really care about, but they will eventually rotate out. 

    If you're not interested in any of the new 12 because you want to finish older characters first, then I can only say that this was not a realistic goal in the previous system either.
  • FightmastermpqFightmastermpq Age Unconfirmed Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    It's not just 1 LT every other day though.  It's 1 4* cover coming in every other day.  Between heroics, event tokens, and all the other rewards just about anyone seriously TRYING to transition to the 4* tier should be able to earn covers faster than 1 every other day.
  • MissChinchMissChinch Age Unconfirmed Posts: 509 Critical Contributor
    It's not just 1 LT every other day though.  It's 1 4* cover coming in every other day.  Between heroics, event tokens, and all the other rewards just about anyone seriously TRYING to transition to the 4* tier should be able to earn covers faster than 1 every other day.


    Minus any rewards that are not covers for the featured 12, all they would serve to do is cover your backlog, which helps but doesn't play favorably with the distribution.


    I wouldn't be so quick to assume everyone rakes in a ton of resources... Elites and standards seem ubiquitous but if you're not hitting the max progression of 15CP in pve and not placing in the top 200 or not hitting 575 in pvp you're not going to see a ton of LT pulls.  4* cover rewards are in the realm of the either very lucky (what 1/100 ish in tacos) or the very competitive (placing top 5 or 10 out of 1000)


    I can definitely see a huge drop in my CP/LT when I'm playing casually and not making top progression, to the point where 1 pull per 2 days is definitely reasonably if not likely.

  • FightmastermpqFightmastermpq Age Unconfirmed Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    edited May 2017
    It's not just 1 LT every other day though.  It's 1 4* cover coming in every other day.  Between heroics, event tokens, and all the other rewards just about anyone seriously TRYING to transition to the 4* tier should be able to earn covers faster than 1 every other day.


    Minus any rewards that are not covers for the featured 12, all they would serve to do is cover your backlog, which helps but doesn't play favorably with the distribution.


    I wouldn't be so quick to assume everyone rakes in a ton of resources... Elites and standards seem ubiquitous but if you're not hitting the max progression of 15CP in pve and not placing in the top 200 or not hitting 575 in pvp you're not going to see a ton of LT pulls.  4* cover rewards are in the realm of the either very lucky (what 1/100 ish in tacos) or the very competitive (placing top 5 or 10 out of 1000)


    I can definitely see a huge drop in my CP/LT when I'm playing casually and not making top progression, to the point where 1 pull per 2 days is definitely reasonably if not likely.

    Again, I'm not talking about LTs.  I'm talking about event tokens and heroics that grant 4*s.  Every day you should get either a heroic or an event token from PvE sub rewards.  There are 2 more in progression rewards, plus another 3 in PvP progression.  You should have a 2* farm that is churning heroics out as well, and you should be earning some heroics from 3* champ rewards too.

    There are 5 heroics in 2* champ rewards and 3 covers for 3* characters.  So every 10 2* rewards is giving you a heroic, and every 17 will give you a 3* rewards which will flip an LT/heroic every 33rd time.  3* covers rain at the moment so these champ rewards should be coming in nicely.

    If you grind sim/LRs you can get even more 2* rewards and speed things up from that too.

    I just don't buy the excuse that 4* covers aren't coming in fast enough.  We will know more in a couple months, but it's looking like the most hardcore players the hardest of hardcore players (and I'm not even talking about spenders here) might actually be able to get the newest characters to 370 in the 36 weeks that they are in tokens, and if they can earn tokens that fast then new transitioners should be able to get at least 13 covers.

    Keep in mind that this system really builds on itself too.  Once you get 1 of the newest 12 champed you start earning LTs for those champ rewards and speeding up the process continually until eventually you are able to get them all champed.
  • smkspysmkspy Posts: 2,024 Chairperson of the Boards
    I think you're overplaying the frequency of 2 star drops in LRs. They're basically a non factor now as compared to their pre nerf drop rate.

    Likewise event and vault tokens. Yeah they drop, but given the small percentage. Unless you're up 10/40 packs, those are a blip on the radar.

    Heroics, yeah. We get so many of those these days that they are a great source of 4s. I hate opening them for fear of dupes, but need them for the 2 stats so it is a trade off. And I've gotten far more BH 4s from heroics than I have from LTS.

    Hardcore players definitely get more 4s than ever before, no doubt, but again, not everyone can be hardcore and those that aren't, it seems that even with the current options, 4 star progress is glacial depending on level of play.

    I'm really to curious to see if you're right about the 370 thing. Only time and my current 276 carol will tell when it comes to her rotation out.
  • StarfuryStarfury Age Unconfirmed Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
    edited May 2017
    It's 5.4 covers per day, just so you know the definition of "hardcore player".
  • smkspysmkspy Posts: 2,024 Chairperson of the Boards
    Starfury said:
    It's 5.4 covers per day, just so you know the definition of "hardcore player".
    Of 4 stars?
  • MissChinchMissChinch Age Unconfirmed Posts: 509 Critical Contributor
    It's not just 1 LT every other day though.  It's 1 4* cover coming in every other day.  Between heroics, event tokens, and all the other rewards just about anyone seriously TRYING to transition to the 4* tier should be able to earn covers faster than 1 every other day.


    Minus any rewards that are not covers for the featured 12, all they would serve to do is cover your backlog, which helps but doesn't play favorably with the distribution.


    I wouldn't be so quick to assume everyone rakes in a ton of resources... Elites and standards seem ubiquitous but if you're not hitting the max progression of 15CP in pve and not placing in the top 200 or not hitting 575 in pvp you're not going to see a ton of LT pulls.  4* cover rewards are in the realm of the either very lucky (what 1/100 ish in tacos) or the very competitive (placing top 5 or 10 out of 1000)


    I can definitely see a huge drop in my CP/LT when I'm playing casually and not making top progression, to the point where 1 pull per 2 days is definitely reasonably if not likely.

    Again, I'm not talking about LTs.  I'm talking about event tokens and heroics that grant 4*s.  Every day you should get either a heroic or an event token from PvE sub rewards.  There are 2 more in progression rewards, plus another 3 in PvP progression.  You should have a 2* farm that is churning heroics out as well, and you should be earning some heroics from 3* champ rewards too.

    There are 5 heroics in 2* champ rewards and 3 covers for 3* characters.  So every 10 2* rewards is giving you a heroic, and every 17 will give you a 3* rewards which will flip an LT/heroic every 33rd time.  3* covers rain at the moment so these champ rewards should be coming in nicely.

    If you grind sim/LRs you can get even more 2* rewards and speed things up from that too.

    I just don't buy the excuse that 4* covers aren't coming in fast enough.  We will know more in a couple months, but it's looking like most hardcore players (and I'm not even talking about spenders here) might actually be able to get the newest characters to 370 in the 36 weeks that they are in tokens, and if they can earn tokens that fast then new transitioners should be able to get at least 13 covers.

    Keep in mind that this system really builds on itself too.  Once you get 1 of the newest 12 champed you start earning LTs for those champ rewards and speeding up the process continually until eventually you are able to get them all champed.


    Well. playing to top50-100 pve (all green checks, plus a little more) and to 575 pve nets me a good bit of heroic tokens, and of all those heroics I get (to include the ones I get from 2* champ rewards) I'm not pulling more than one or two 4* per week from heroics, I'd even bet its closer to 1 than 2. 

    All that stuff dramatically increases the ISO I net, but doesn't amount in a bunch of 4*s being drawn from heroics.

    I don't know where the line falls to only be pulling a 4* every other day, but I think its much more likely for a casual to do than you do...  Either way, they'll have to find some way to get that up to around 2 every 3 days for vaulting to not screw them.

  • MissChinchMissChinch Age Unconfirmed Posts: 509 Critical Contributor
    to 575 pvp*
  • MissChinchMissChinch Age Unconfirmed Posts: 509 Critical Contributor

    To be maxing out a 4* at 370 while they're featured, you'd need to pull in featured 4* covers at a rate of 113 every 3 weeks...  assuming perfect distribution...  averaging 5.4/day like Starfury said...  

    If you are doing that then not only is vaulting vs not-vaulting completely immaterial, you're WAY out earning the current 5* release date, approaching a 5* per day... I cant imagine you would give a kitty-of-any-size about 4*s.

  • BowgentleBowgentle Posts: 5,038 Chairperson of the Boards

    To be maxing out a 4* at 370 while they're featured, you'd need to pull in featured 4* covers at a rate of 113 every 3 weeks...  assuming perfect distribution...  averaging 5.4/day like Starfury said...  

    If you are doing that then not only is vaulting vs not-vaulting completely immaterial, you're WAY out earning the current 5* release date, approaching a 5* per day... I cant imagine you would give a kitty-of-any-size about 4*s.

    High level 4s (340+) are crazy when buffed, plus the champ rewards add up.
    So yes, even for 5* players 4s are important, it just takes quite a while to get them high enough - that's why Fight is talking 370s.
  • BowgentleBowgentle Posts: 5,038 Chairperson of the Boards
    sh81 said:


    CP.  Which drips in real slow, allows me a pull every few days.


    I don't get this.
    2 CP from Burito, daily = 14 per week.
    2 CP per PVE sub, daily = 14 per week.
    25 CP from PVE prog = 25 per week (at least).
    10 CP from 575 PVP 3 times per week = 30 per week.

    That's 83 CP per week without factoring in champ rewards - 4 classic pulls.

    How can you only pull a LT every few days?

  • BowgentleBowgentle Posts: 5,038 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2017
    sh81 said:
    Bowgentle said:
    sh81 said:


    CP.  Which drips in real slow, allows me a pull every few days.


    I don't get this.
    2 CP from Burito, daily = 14 per week.
    2 CP per PVE sub, daily = 14 per week.
    25 CP from PVE prog = 25 per week (at least).
    10 CP from 575 PVP 3 times per week = 30 per week.

    That's 83 CP per week without factoring in champ rewards - 4 classic pulls.

    How can you only pull a LT every few days?

    I cant do the 575 PVP for starters.

    And if I dont go for the 25 LT how am I supposed to champ my new 4*s super fast as Fightmastermpq  expects?

    Im essentially in between 3 and 4*.  My 3s are all champed, my 4s no where near as a whole.

    I cant do the optimal grind of initial clears on the beginning of a sub, late grind at the end because I simply dont have the muscle to make 10 health packs last 7 clears straight.

    So I end up throwing a clear in on about 12 hours, meaning only 2 at the end.  Which I can manage, but it effectively rules me out of 4* rewards.

    Being in this situation rules out PVP entirely, unless we have a 48hour sub in which case I have opportunity.

    Hm, looking at your roster, that leveled Phoenix and the other leveled 5s aren't doing you any favours in PVP.

    No need to do 7 PVE clears straight, the 25 CP only requires 4 clears whenever - plus 2 more clears on the CP nodes. You should be able to do that in a 24 hour span, easily?

    If you want to cover 4s just pull classic tokens, latest are for people who want to cover 5s.
  • FightmastermpqFightmastermpq Age Unconfirmed Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    I'm FAR more interested in 370s than 5*s.  370s boost to 479 and just completely dominate 450-460 5*s
  • MissChinchMissChinch Age Unconfirmed Posts: 509 Critical Contributor
    Bowgentle said:
    sh81 said:


    CP.  Which drips in real slow, allows me a pull every few days.


    I don't get this.
    2 CP from Burito, daily = 14 per week.
    2 CP per PVE sub, daily = 14 per week.
    25 CP from PVE prog = 25 per week (at least).
    10 CP from 575 PVP 3 times per week = 30 per week.

    That's 83 CP per week without factoring in champ rewards - 4 classic pulls.

    How can you only pull a LT every few days?


    Personally I don't hit all the pvp's but the intercepts and champ rewards make up for that...  I think I've been just a hair under 1 pull per day, but I'm nowhere near that when I play what I'd describe as "casual" aka focus on ddq, not make max prog in pve and miss 575 in pvp.


    I think most of this comes down to just what we think of as "casual"...   I think of casual players as not hitting max pve progression, not hitting 575 in pvp, but likely completing just about all the burritos and around half the crashes... They may not hit both CP per pve sub, but I'd think hitting one would still be casual, and they watch intercepts vs spending money to skip them.  I don't think that amounts to many 4* pulls, few enough that would justify a stance against vaulting from a resource flow standpoint.




  • StarfuryStarfury Age Unconfirmed Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
    smkspy said:
    Starfury said:
    It's 5.4 covers per day, just so you know the definition of "hardcore player".
    Of 4 stars?
    113 covers * 12 characters / 36 weeks -> 37 covers per week.
    That's what Fightmaster's hardcore player would need to reach if he's to get his 4* to 370 before they're vaulted.
  • FightmastermpqFightmastermpq Age Unconfirmed Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    Bowgentle said:
    sh81 said:


    CP.  Which drips in real slow, allows me a pull every few days.


    I don't get this.
    2 CP from Burito, daily = 14 per week.
    2 CP per PVE sub, daily = 14 per week.
    25 CP from PVE prog = 25 per week (at least).
    10 CP from 575 PVP 3 times per week = 30 per week.

    That's 83 CP per week without factoring in champ rewards - 4 classic pulls.

    How can you only pull a LT every few days?


    Personally I don't hit all the pvp's but the intercepts and champ rewards make up for that...  I think I've been just a hair under 1 pull per day, but I'm nowhere near that when I play what I'd describe as "casual" aka focus on ddq, not make max prog in pve and miss 575 in pvp.


    I think most of this comes down to just what we think of as "casual"...   I think of casual players as not hitting max pve progression, not hitting 575 in pvp, but likely completing just about all the burritos and around half the crashes... They may not hit both CP per pve sub, but I'd think hitting one would still be casual, and they watch intercepts vs spending money to skip them.  I don't think that amounts to many 4* pulls, few enough that would justify a stance against vaulting from a resource flow standpoint.

    Sorry but I don't care if casual players can't progress well into the 4* tier.  Casual players have 1/2/3* characters to play with, and some 4* characters to mess around with.  Casual players don't have a roster filled with champed 4*s.
  • smkspysmkspy Posts: 2,024 Chairperson of the Boards
    Starfury said:
    smkspy said:
    Starfury said:
    It's 5.4 covers per day, just so you know the definition of "hardcore player".
    Of 4 stars?
    113 covers * 12 characters / 36 weeks -> 37 covers per week.
    That's what Fightmaster's hardcore player would need to reach if he's to get his 4* to 370 before they're vaulted.

    I get you now, guess I'm not hardcore enough as I only finish top 10-50 per pve, at least 575 in every pvp, and have a full roster for ddq every day lol. 

    That said, my roster is deep with 23 champed 4s, the vast majority being the very best of the tier. At this level, the game is insanely fun, but I busted my butt building roster over two years. Yet despite that, I fully see where my level and the resources that I pull in takes a bit too much effort, and fully emphasis with players that can't  achieve even if they were able.

    So even at a f2p model, something does need to give to help players out given the current situation, and I just have to laugh when I see the "you can  easily champ 4 stars in two weeks" comments on the forum. A huge difference between being able to do it and for it to be easily doable which "hardcore" players love to tout. 


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