New McG said: MarkersMake said: Ah you're right. Still, it's 1% for a 4* BH out of a heroic, so maybe 2 or 3 covers out of there. Any way you look at it though, by the time you cover her you'll have pulled 200+ other 4* covers. She'll be irrelevant by then. And if you're pulling from a pool of 50ish 4*s minus the BH factor (which is where we'd be minus vaulting/BH ever being implemented), you'll likely have to pull 500+ covers to finish her, pending a standard amount of luck. I assume those also make her irrelevant. See where this is going?
MarkersMake said: Ah you're right. Still, it's 1% for a 4* BH out of a heroic, so maybe 2 or 3 covers out of there. Any way you look at it though, by the time you cover her you'll have pulled 200+ other 4* covers. She'll be irrelevant by then.
New McG said:Oh, various people have made various, thought out analysis posts about how in the long-term, the Latest 12 approach to tokens makes players viable in a quicker span. It hasn't made a difference to those continuing to rage that they can't pull a token for a 2% chance at their 10th Venom cover anymore.
Nepenthe said: Starfury said: Fightmastermpq said: They gave us BH to partially help address the issue of accessing older characters, but to claim that not having access to ALL of the older characters is some massive failure of vaulting doesn't make any sense. Having access to ALL of the other characters IS dilution - the very thing vaulting was trying to fix. No, it's choice.You'd be free to continue to pull from the latest 12, while we'd be free to pull from the entire pool, like the morons you keep telling us we are. THIS. I'm so sick of people saying "but dilution!" when many of us are saying we want to add the OPTION to pick the diluted token.
Starfury said: Fightmastermpq said: They gave us BH to partially help address the issue of accessing older characters, but to claim that not having access to ALL of the older characters is some massive failure of vaulting doesn't make any sense. Having access to ALL of the other characters IS dilution - the very thing vaulting was trying to fix. No, it's choice.You'd be free to continue to pull from the latest 12, while we'd be free to pull from the entire pool, like the morons you keep telling us we are.
Fightmastermpq said: They gave us BH to partially help address the issue of accessing older characters, but to claim that not having access to ALL of the older characters is some massive failure of vaulting doesn't make any sense. Having access to ALL of the other characters IS dilution - the very thing vaulting was trying to fix.
Fightmastermpq said: broll said: Fightmastermpq said: broll said: Fightmastermpq said:I have a dozen older 4s that are max covered but need about 3 months of ISO - similar to your older 3s. So what is the solution? You forget about the vaulted characters. Those older 4s aren't going to add hardly any value to my roster, just like older 3s won't for you. That's easy to say when those dozen are probably bottom of the barrel 4*s like Mr. F, Venom, Spider-Gwen, etc. For those of us who are struggling go get the covers for Iceman, Teen Jean, Thoress, etc. those characters will make a very big difference. No, they really won't. There are plenty of characters in the newest pool that are as good or better than the vaulted characters. Maybe there are 1 or 2 vaulted characters that actually would make a "very big difference" in your ability to compete, but BH can take care of that. For the most part though the newest crop is good enough to get the job done. Sure there are. But when Iceman is boosted and those newer characters aren't, I get a handicap vs vets who already leveled him because he's great character i can't level effectively because the devs hate us and love money. So what? You are ALWAYS going to get handicapped vs. vets that have had more time to level more characters. Vaulting doesn't make that any worse.
broll said: Fightmastermpq said: broll said: Fightmastermpq said:I have a dozen older 4s that are max covered but need about 3 months of ISO - similar to your older 3s. So what is the solution? You forget about the vaulted characters. Those older 4s aren't going to add hardly any value to my roster, just like older 3s won't for you. That's easy to say when those dozen are probably bottom of the barrel 4*s like Mr. F, Venom, Spider-Gwen, etc. For those of us who are struggling go get the covers for Iceman, Teen Jean, Thoress, etc. those characters will make a very big difference. No, they really won't. There are plenty of characters in the newest pool that are as good or better than the vaulted characters. Maybe there are 1 or 2 vaulted characters that actually would make a "very big difference" in your ability to compete, but BH can take care of that. For the most part though the newest crop is good enough to get the job done. Sure there are. But when Iceman is boosted and those newer characters aren't, I get a handicap vs vets who already leveled him because he's great character i can't level effectively because the devs hate us and love money.
Fightmastermpq said: broll said: Fightmastermpq said:I have a dozen older 4s that are max covered but need about 3 months of ISO - similar to your older 3s. So what is the solution? You forget about the vaulted characters. Those older 4s aren't going to add hardly any value to my roster, just like older 3s won't for you. That's easy to say when those dozen are probably bottom of the barrel 4*s like Mr. F, Venom, Spider-Gwen, etc. For those of us who are struggling go get the covers for Iceman, Teen Jean, Thoress, etc. those characters will make a very big difference. No, they really won't. There are plenty of characters in the newest pool that are as good or better than the vaulted characters. Maybe there are 1 or 2 vaulted characters that actually would make a "very big difference" in your ability to compete, but BH can take care of that. For the most part though the newest crop is good enough to get the job done.
broll said: Fightmastermpq said:I have a dozen older 4s that are max covered but need about 3 months of ISO - similar to your older 3s. So what is the solution? You forget about the vaulted characters. Those older 4s aren't going to add hardly any value to my roster, just like older 3s won't for you. That's easy to say when those dozen are probably bottom of the barrel 4*s like Mr. F, Venom, Spider-Gwen, etc. For those of us who are struggling go get the covers for Iceman, Teen Jean, Thoress, etc. those characters will make a very big difference.
Fightmastermpq said:I have a dozen older 4s that are max covered but need about 3 months of ISO - similar to your older 3s. So what is the solution? You forget about the vaulted characters. Those older 4s aren't going to add hardly any value to my roster, just like older 3s won't for you.
MissChinch said: Average pulls to cover a specific character:With 49 heroes in the 4* tier:no vaulting, no bonus heroes: 637 pullsno vaulting, WITH bonus heros: 260 pullsWITH vaulting and WITH bonus heroes: 156 pullswith 66 heroes in the 4* tier (approximately 1 year from now):no vaulting, no bonus heroes: 858 pullsno vaulting, WITH bonus heros: 260 pullsWITH vaulting and WITH bonus heroes: 156 pullswith 134 heroes in the 4* tier (approximately 5 years from now):no vaulting, no bonus heroes: 1742 pullsno vaulting, WITH bonus heros: 260 pullsWITH vaulting and WITH bonus heroes: 156 pull
Average pulls to cover a specific character:
With 49 heroes in the 4* tier:
no vaulting, no bonus heroes: 637 pullsno vaulting, WITH bonus heros: 260 pullsWITH vaulting and WITH bonus heroes: 156 pulls
with 66 heroes in the 4* tier (approximately 1 year from now):
no vaulting, no bonus heroes: 858 pullsno vaulting, WITH bonus heros: 260 pullsWITH vaulting and WITH bonus heroes: 156 pulls
with 134 heroes in the 4* tier (approximately 5 years from now):
no vaulting, no bonus heroes: 1742 pullsno vaulting, WITH bonus heros: 260 pullsWITH vaulting and WITH bonus heroes: 156 pull
no vaulting, no bonus heroes: 637 pulls (to cover all 49 to 13 assuming no overlap I'm guessing since 637/49 is 13)no vaulting, WITH bonus heros: 260 pulls (to cover 1 character with BH only assuming you always get 5% and no 5* and no color overlap because 260/20 = 13, 5% = 1/20)WITH vaulting and WITH bonus heroes: 156 pulls (to cover all latest 12 I'm guessing because 156/12 = 13)
These numbers make no sense, apples to oranges comparisons all over over the place, no factoring in for the multiple layers of RNG.
Daiches said: People have been glossing over the loss of high-level champion levels and associated rewards. That is also impacted by Vaulting. Do I want Gwenpool quickly becoming my second biggest 4star champ while Cyclops and Ice, etc languish behind? No. I want all my good characters in high rewards zone to increase. Luckily BH sees my HB inching closer and closer to max (now at 349 and 20 levels ahead of Cyclops and Gwenpool).
MarkersMake said: New McG said: MarkersMake said: Ah you're right. Still, it's 1% for a 4* BH out of a heroic, so maybe 2 or 3 covers out of there. Any way you look at it though, by the time you cover her you'll have pulled 200+ other 4* covers. She'll be irrelevant by then. And if you're pulling from a pool of 50ish 4*s minus the BH factor (which is where we'd be minus vaulting/BH ever being implemented), you'll likely have to pull 500+ covers to finish her, pending a standard amount of luck. I assume those also make her irrelevant. See where this is going? You keep responding to me as though I don't think vaulting is a good thing. It's possible to be in favour of something, but also to see that there are flaws with it that need to be addressed. EDIT - For instance: Carol is pretty great, yeah? So are Medusa, Blade, Coulson, Wasp. They work well together. The new hotness. But what happens when they're all out of tokens? Because then, people will have to get the next group of 4*s, and if they aren't significantly better than the gen1 (Rulk/Iceman/jean/etc) and gen2 (Carol/wasp/etc) characters, then those players will have a bunch of 4* champs that don't hold up well to the top tier ones, who will then be vaulted. And if they *are* significantly better? Well, that's just locking in *necessary* power inflation, isn't it? Darned if you do, darned if you don't. There are valid reasons for concern with vaulting, even if you agree that it is an overall positive.
New McG said:Speculating now about "well, what if they put out 12 terrible characters in a row, how will I compete?" is putting the complaining cart before the complaining horse.
When vaulting was first introduced, a table was drawn up and it turned out that only 2 or 3 of the 20 latest were in the top 10 of all available 4*s. That means the other 7 or 8 were virtually unavailable to beginners.
So how exactly are they able to build a competitve roster?
kyo28 said: When vaulting was first introduced, a table was drawn up and it turned out that only 2 or 3 of the 20 latest were in the top 10 of all available 4*s. That means the other 7 or 8 were virtually unavailable to beginners.So how exactly are they able to build a competitve roster?
GrumpySmurf1002 said: kyo28 said: When vaulting was first introduced, a table was drawn up and it turned out that only 2 or 3 of the 20 latest were in the top 10 of all available 4*s. That means the other 7 or 8 were virtually unavailable to beginners.So how exactly are they able to build a competitve roster? After the top 4 (Iceman/Peggy/RHulk/Carol), there's not a ton of separation between 5 and 25, maybe even 35 since all the rebalancing. Boosting negates those differences even further. So focusing on just the T10 seems pretty silly, it's quite subjective who belongs in that list. Focusing on the macro-level, Carol, Medusa, Blade, C4ge, Coulson are all above average characters, and Gwenpool/SpiderWoman/HoboFist/C&D all seem to be decent supports. The other 3: Agent Venom, Riri, Mordo, I've seen plenty of support for, even I don't personally see their effectiveness.Sure, a new player will struggle to get Peggy/Iceman quick, but there's plenty of ways to be competitive with the current 12.
Milk Jugz said: What I don't really understand is when I was making the 2*-3* transition there were almost as many 3* characters then as there are 4* characters now (maybe 10 less). But token dilution wasn't a problem then mainly because 3* covers come from many different places (I've pretty much always finished t50 in pve). I think the best answer to token dilution in the 4* tier is not to remove characters from the vaults but OPEN UP CLEARANCE LEVELS 9 AND FREAKING 10 ALREADY AND HAVE THE REWARDS STRUCTURE BE NOT INSULTING TO A 4* ROSTER, I. E. GIVE 4* COVERS PAST T10 ON PVE AND PAST T5 ON PVP. IDK MAYBE T100-250!!! MAYBE EVEN GIVE 5* COVERS FOR T1-5-10!! 4* AND 5* COVERS ARE NOT WHAT THEY USED TO BE!!!When I started playing there were only 2 5* characters and a handful of 4*s, the covers were hard to come by but they should have been there really weren't that many characters on those tiers. But now 4*s are more numerous than 3*s and there are 15 5*s. Rather than taking characters out of tokens, give more away in progression and placement. And what is really irritating is the problem was *almost* solved with clearance levels, but for whatever reason you only went halfway. AGAIN GIVE US CLEARANCE LEVELS 9 AND 10 AND MAKE THE REWARD STRUCTURE APPROPRIATE FOR OUR ROSTER!!!! Then token dilution won't be a problem for us, just as it wasn't when we were making the 3* transition. As far as the new player goes, it should take time to get to 4* land!!! It took me a year and a half, this game is a commitment to build your roster up and people that don't want to put the effort or time in to build up shouldn't be catered to. You can't hit 4* overnight (unless you whale, I guess), you can't even hit 3* overnight. This talk about vaulting helping newer people "catch up" is ridiculous. It only helps them get the new characters faster, it doesn't help them catch up to more developed rosters because they don't have reasonable access to a large number of the characters. In summary I think a better option to vaulting is mostly in place already with clearance levels just improperly implemented. With the number of 4* characters out now they should be given out the way 3*s are, but only to the people with a developed enough roster by using the clearance levels system already in place. Why is that so hard?!?
optimus2861 said: "If you have to EXPLAIN the joke, THERE IS NO JOKE!" - the Joker. If the system is better for players, it needs to be self-evident and should leave the player going, Hey, this is pretty great! It shouldn't leave the players screaming, Why the (expletive of choice) can't I get covers for (favourite character X) anymore?!?! Human nature being what it is, players will focus on the significant and immediate drawback and not any theoretical, possibly-realized-in-the-future positive.But then communications has never been Demiurge's strong point. Ham-fistedness is more like it.
Fightmastermpq said: MarkersMake said: I have them. But you said you could take im40/peggy to 900. If that's not what you meant then that's not my problem. I wish you would rather just read the discussion before you jump in to make some irrelevant point.The claim was that people need vaulted characters to hit 900 in PvP or T10 PvE, and my response was that no you really don't - and maybe you could make a case for 1 or 2 characters that someone could pick up (e.g. Peggy w/IM40) that would actually make a big difference, but by and large you can get there with the newer characters (e.g. Carol/Medusa/Wasp/Coulson/Blade), and/or set those 1 or 2 characters as BH and get them even quicker.
MarkersMake said: I have them. But you said you could take im40/peggy to 900. If that's not what you meant then that's not my problem.
JVReal said: I honestly wouldn't object to vaulting so much, if I had access to a larger flow of Iso to level the characters to minimize wasted covers. It feels terrible having to sell covers of 4* characters that I know will eventually end up vaulted around the time I can afford to champ them.Buying Iso is not a solution, and with getting 3 intercepts a week... that is not feasible option.