Answers To The 8 Questions About Vaulting (5/2/17)

astrp3

MissChinch said:

Average pulls to cover a specific character:

With 49 heroes in the 4* tier:

no vaulting, no bonus heroes: 637 pulls
no vaulting, WITH bonus heros: 260 pulls
WITH vaulting and WITH bonus heroes: 156 pulls

Oh, another thing I wanted to mention, as I alluded to in my previous post, is one difference between your middle number and the other two.

With vaulting, your 156 perfect pulls will get you 12 4*s fully covered.

Without vaulting or bonus heroes, your 637 perfect pulls will get you 49 4*s fully covered.

But without vaulting and with bonus heroes, your 260 (or 185) pulls will only get you one 4* fully covered. The rest would only have a handful of covers and would be largely unusable - though having them would allow you to do Behemoth Burrito and always have the essential 4* at the start of PvE, which is a big advantage.

MissChinch

astrp3 said:

MissChinch said:

Average pulls to cover a specific character:

With 49 heroes in the 4* tier:

no vaulting, no bonus heroes: 637 pulls
no vaulting, WITH bonus heros: 260 pulls
WITH vaulting and WITH bonus heroes: 156 pulls

Oh, another thing I wanted to mention, as I alluded to in my previous post, is one difference between your middle number and the other two.

With vaulting, your 156 perfect pulls will get you 12 4*s fully covered.

Without vaulting or bonus heroes, your 637 perfect pulls will get you 49 4*s fully covered.

But without vaulting and with bonus heroes, your 260 (or 185) pulls will only get you one 4* fully covered. The rest would only have a handful of covers and would be largely unusable - though having them would allow you to do Behemoth Burrito and always have the essential 4* at the start of PvE, which is a big advantage.

this isn't how many pulls it would take over a constant distribution to get any 4* character to 13 covers, its the average number of pulls you would need to get one predetermined character to 13 covers... 

if you have X characters in a pool, you predetermine one specific character before rolling, the average number of pulls to cover that character will be 13 x odds to pull that specific character (aka how many are in the pool)

This purposely disregards poor covering distribution where you get 6 of one color before hitting a total of 13, AND completely discounts combining the bonus hero mechanic with the character you pull.

The real statistics can give you confidence intervals, but can never actually guarantee you ever cover a single character...   this accurately shows the dilution problem and the fact that both bonus heroes and vaulting remove tier size from the equation (or make it extremely insignificant)

smkspy

Bonus Heroes is such a straw man argument for way vaulting works. I actually like vaulting when applied in a smart way, not as currently inplemented, but bonus heroes as a driving force behind catching up does not work. Besides rarity, 5 color drops, and the big IF it even actives for you at all being the top reasons it isn't a valid argument.

I mean, I haven't gotten a 3 star bonus hero from a token in 3 weeks, and that's the BH drop that my rave over as being the consolation that 4 star (much less 5 star) drops are even rarer.

If it weren't for the occasional ST drop, I would wonder if the feature was still active.

astrp3

MissChinch said:

this isn't how many pulls it would take over a constant distribution to get any 4* character to 13 covers, its the average number of pulls you would need to get one predetermined character to 13 covers... 

if you have X characters in a pool, you predetermine one specific character before rolling, the average number of pulls to cover that character will be 13 x odds to pull that specific character (aka how many are in the pool)

Yes, I get that and I think I understand how you calculated your numbers (and how to multiply by 13).

By "perfect pulls" I meant "your 156 pulls, assuming they were perfect," which of course, they won't be (I'm also assuming they are all 4*s, which they also won't be, and assumed you were doing the same).

My point was that under the old system and the current system (ignoring bonus heroes), by the time you got your first character covered, you would likely have a number of others fairly close to being covered (more of them in the old system and obviously you're going to get wasted covers and are not going to get them all evenly). But just considering BH (which I think is what your middle scenario really is), by the time you got your first favorite covered, you likely wouldn't be anywhere near having another 4* covered.

So I thought that the 260 pulls number gave some the impression (intentional or not) that no vaulting with bonus heroes wasn't much different from vaulting with bonus heroes, which I don't think is the case (though I agree with your larger points about growth rates).

I think your three scenarios were more like "no vaulting no bonus heroes," "vaulting no bonus heroes," and "bonus heroes (with or without vaulting)."

MissChinch

smkspy said:

Bonus Heroes is such a straw man argument for way vaulting works. I actually like vaulting when applied in a smart way, not as currently inplemented, but bonus heroes as a driving force behind catching up does not work. Besides rarity, 5 color drops, and the big IF it even actives for you at all being the top reasons it isn't a valid argument.

I mean, I haven't gotten a 3 star bonus hero from a token in 3 weeks, and that's the BH drop that my rave over as being the consolation that 4 star (much less 5 star) drops are even rarer.

If it weren't for the occasional ST drop, I would wonder if the feature was still active.

I share the same frustrations, but they could certainly tweak bonus heroes to make them effective...

I'd happily give up the "bonus" part, just make electing a favorite mean you have a 30% chance to draw that favorite INSTEAD of what you would normally have drawn...  all they really need to do is tweak the percent and it goes from a nearly meaningless gesture used as an excuse to have us pay for 3/4th of the 4* (and 3*) tier, to a legitimate tool that can be used, when desired, for new players to get a sense of progress and access to more of the game...

MarkersMake

Fightmastermpq said:

BoyWonder1914 said:

Fightmastermpq said:

BoyWonder1914 said:

Fightmastermpq said:

broll said:

Fightmastermpq said:

I have a dozen older 4s that are max covered but need about 3 months of ISO - similar to your older 3s.  So what is the solution?  You forget about the vaulted characters.  Those older 4s aren't going to add hardly any value to my roster, just like older 3s won't for you.  

That's easy to say when those dozen are probably bottom of the barrel 4*s like Mr. F, Venom, Spider-Gwen, etc.  For those of us who are struggling go get the covers for Iceman, Teen Jean, Thoress, etc. those characters will make a very big difference.

No, they really won't.  There are plenty of characters in the newest pool that are as good or better than the vaulted characters.  Maybe there are 1 or 2 vaulted characters that actually would make a "very big difference" in your ability to compete, but BH can take care of that.  For the most part though the newest crop is good enough to get the job done.

LMFAO @ you thinking YOU can tell someone else that upper-top tier 4-star characters won't impact their roster. This has got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard anyone say about vaulted characters. 

This is only because you are ignorant of upper tier play.  I have all the top tier 4*s champed.  I also have all but 2 of the newest 4*s champed.  So I am qualified to speak on how competitive you can be with them, and I can confirm that when boosted the newest 4*s have enough synergies and strong mechanics to be successful in both competitive PvE and PvP.

I didn't say they wouldn't impact your roster.  I said that won't "make a very big difference."  Because they simply won't.  I know they won't because I have just about all of them and use them all regularly and my success is dependent on which ones are boosted, not which ones are "top tier"

First of all, let's get this out of the way: Regular use of a new character = big difference to your roster. With me so far on that super basic concept? Because if not, then you should really take some time to learn what the words "impact" and "difference" mean. Secondly, I love how you seem to think getting on your high horse of "having x amount of 4s champed" somehow makes your viewpoint on this absolute in some kind of way. If anything, you're only making your viewpoints LESS valid because so few people actually identify with where your roster is. A new 4-star champ is nothing but a new toy to you that you might play with when you get around to feeling like it. Since you've been so removed from this point in the game for so long, let me remind you that to MOST PEOPLE, a newly champed IceMan, Hulkbuster, or Peggy is a big tinykitty deal. YOU don't get to tell someone else what that's SUPPOSED to mean to their roster.  

I also love how my supposed "ignorance of top tier play" somehow means that I don't understand that top tier characters aren't always boosted. Once again you somehow fail to realize that "competitive" doesn't mean the same thing for someone with your roster as someone who hasn't whaled their way into 5-star land. If someone is all of a sudden able to make 900 regularly in PVP or t10 in PVE because they now have a top tier character at their disposal, that's called a BIG DIFFERENCE. 

I stand by my original statement.  Anyone can BH IM40 and Peggy and ride that duo to 900 much more easily now than under the old system.  Anything beyond that quite frankly doesn't make a "big difference" in how well you can do in events.  I didn't say it wasn't a big deal - I like to play with new toys too.  But they never make a big difference over other 4s.

Not to 900. Maybe last month, but not anymore. 

Because everyone (due to vaulting) has a variation on Carol/Medusa/Wasp/Coulson/Blade that they can run against IM40/Peggy. 

Running IM40/Peggy/champed feature painted a big bullseye on you past 700 - champed 4* rosters would happily stomp on you. So you could run to 750-800 and I guess shield hop your way to 900 (I never had the HP to burn).

So now? You might be *able* to do it, but I would argue that the results of vaulting have made it harder to do so, not easier. 

bbigler

sinnerjfl said:

#8 - If enough people voice concern, would you be willing to end vaulting?

Yes. We've made it very clear that we're interested in player feedback, and willing to adjust accordingly. Player feedback has guided our characters updates to focus on increasing 4-star power, rather than decreasing overpowered 4-star characters. This was fantastic for both sides; we saw increased use of different characters, and players were happier that we didn't have to change the 4-star characters they loved.

We think it’s very important to note that just ending vaulting is not a full solution; doing so will restore the pack dilution problem outlined in #1 above which threatens the long-term health of the game. We hope you understand that solving for all of these issues is complex and takes time, and we continue to appreciate hearing from players to hear your specific concerns with changes we make to the game.

The forum has already shared most of its feedback regarding vaulting... you are welcome to read this 50+ page thread located here http://forums.d3go.com/discussion/60255/new-feature-bonus-heroes-updated-3-1-17/p1

(TLDR; we dont really like the vaulting)

That 50+ page thread is mostly a knee-jerk reaction to the change.  Now that I see the full effect of vaulting, I prefer it to the token dilution we had before.  I'm not biased either, because I have non-champed vaulted characters that could be really good (Iceman, Jean Grey, Cyclops, Punisher, Nova, Moon Knight, ProfX). 

I like that I can champ Wasp, Cage, Medusa, Carol, Coulson, etc in record time instead of waiting years.  Plus, these vaulted 4*s may be irrelevant in a year when everyone is in 5* land.

Starfury

bbigler said:

sinnerjfl said:

#8 - If enough people voice concern, would you be willing to end vaulting?

Yes. We've made it very clear that we're interested in player feedback, and willing to adjust accordingly. Player feedback has guided our characters updates to focus on increasing 4-star power, rather than decreasing overpowered 4-star characters. This was fantastic for both sides; we saw increased use of different characters, and players were happier that we didn't have to change the 4-star characters they loved.

We think it’s very important to note that just ending vaulting is not a full solution; doing so will restore the pack dilution problem outlined in #1 above which threatens the long-term health of the game. We hope you understand that solving for all of these issues is complex and takes time, and we continue to appreciate hearing from players to hear your specific concerns with changes we make to the game.

The forum has already shared most of its feedback regarding vaulting... you are welcome to read this 50+ page thread located here http://forums.d3go.com/discussion/60255/new-feature-bonus-heroes-updated-3-1-17/p1

(TLDR; we dont really like the vaulting)

That 50+ page thread is mostly a knee-jerk reaction to the change.  Now that I see the full effect of vaulting, I prefer it to the token dilution we had before.  I'm not biased either, because I have non-champed vaulted characters that could be really good (Iceman, Jean Grey, Cyclops, Punisher, Nova, Moon Knight, ProfX). 

I like that I can champ Wasp, Cage, Medusa, Carol, Coulson, etc in record time instead of waiting years.  Plus, these vaulted 4*s may be irrelevant in a year when everyone is in 5* land.

How would we ever get to 5* land if it supposedly already took years to get 4* champed?

turbomoose

I have a suggestion, don't know if it's been put forward before but why not rotate 12 4*s each season leaving in new releases for two seasons 

That way dilution is avoided and people have a realistic chance to roster all characters over a period of time. 

Also think about removing 1* characters all together as I think the game has developed beyond them now. 

Maybe also consider retiring the least popular characters once or twice a year 

Fightmastermpq

MarkersMake said:

Fightmastermpq said:

BoyWonder1914 said:

Fightmastermpq said:

BoyWonder1914 said:

Fightmastermpq said:

broll said:

Fightmastermpq said:

I have a dozen older 4s that are max covered but need about 3 months of ISO - similar to your older 3s.  So what is the solution?  You forget about the vaulted characters.  Those older 4s aren't going to add hardly any value to my roster, just like older 3s won't for you.  

That's easy to say when those dozen are probably bottom of the barrel 4*s like Mr. F, Venom, Spider-Gwen, etc.  For those of us who are struggling go get the covers for Iceman, Teen Jean, Thoress, etc. those characters will make a very big difference.

No, they really won't.  There are plenty of characters in the newest pool that are as good or better than the vaulted characters.  Maybe there are 1 or 2 vaulted characters that actually would make a "very big difference" in your ability to compete, but BH can take care of that.  For the most part though the newest crop is good enough to get the job done.

LMFAO @ you thinking YOU can tell someone else that upper-top tier 4-star characters won't impact their roster. This has got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard anyone say about vaulted characters. 

This is only because you are ignorant of upper tier play.  I have all the top tier 4*s champed.  I also have all but 2 of the newest 4*s champed.  So I am qualified to speak on how competitive you can be with them, and I can confirm that when boosted the newest 4*s have enough synergies and strong mechanics to be successful in both competitive PvE and PvP.

I didn't say they wouldn't impact your roster.  I said that won't "make a very big difference."  Because they simply won't.  I know they won't because I have just about all of them and use them all regularly and my success is dependent on which ones are boosted, not which ones are "top tier"

First of all, let's get this out of the way: Regular use of a new character = big difference to your roster. With me so far on that super basic concept? Because if not, then you should really take some time to learn what the words "impact" and "difference" mean. Secondly, I love how you seem to think getting on your high horse of "having x amount of 4s champed" somehow makes your viewpoint on this absolute in some kind of way. If anything, you're only making your viewpoints LESS valid because so few people actually identify with where your roster is. A new 4-star champ is nothing but a new toy to you that you might play with when you get around to feeling like it. Since you've been so removed from this point in the game for so long, let me remind you that to MOST PEOPLE, a newly champed IceMan, Hulkbuster, or Peggy is a big tinykitty deal. YOU don't get to tell someone else what that's SUPPOSED to mean to their roster.  

I also love how my supposed "ignorance of top tier play" somehow means that I don't understand that top tier characters aren't always boosted. Once again you somehow fail to realize that "competitive" doesn't mean the same thing for someone with your roster as someone who hasn't whaled their way into 5-star land. If someone is all of a sudden able to make 900 regularly in PVP or t10 in PVE because they now have a top tier character at their disposal, that's called a BIG DIFFERENCE. 

I stand by my original statement.  Anyone can BH IM40 and Peggy and ride that duo to 900 much more easily now than under the old system.  Anything beyond that quite frankly doesn't make a "big difference" in how well you can do in events.  I didn't say it wasn't a big deal - I like to play with new toys too.  But they never make a big difference over other 4s.

Not to 900. Maybe last month, but not anymore. 

Because everyone (due to vaulting) has a variation on Carol/Medusa/Wasp/Coulson/Blade that they can run against IM40/Peggy. 

Running IM40/Peggy/champed feature painted a big bullseye on you past 700 - champed 4* rosters would happily stomp on you. So you could run to 750-800 and I guess shield hop your way to 900 (I never had the HP to burn).

So now? You might be *able* to do it, but I would argue that the results of vaulting have made it harder to do so, not easier. 

This is such terrible logic.  "I can't get to 900 in PvP because I'm stuck in this old world where I think I need these old characters to be successful, and others taking advantage of this new 'terrible' system are beating me with their more competitive rosters."

So just get your own Carol/Medusa/Wasp/Coulson/Bl4de to run as well then........

The old days of PvP where you can be successful if and only if you have a XFW/Thor duo are gone.  

MarkersMake

I have them. But you said you could take im40/peggy to 900. If that's not what you meant then that's not my problem. 

Fightmastermpq

MissChinch said:

Fightmastermpq said:

Daredevil217 said:

Fightmastermpq said:

Sorry, I thought your question was rhetorical.  No one has any issue adding a token to give players more options.  If you want to subject yourself to the snails pace of progress that dilution brings then I'm not here to stop you.  But I think the community as a whole would be better keeping the current vaulting mechanic in place.

And there we are.  Even the biggest supporter of vaulting can't find an issue with the most oft-proposed solution. 

Developers... are you listening?

All the rest of your essays don't really matter to me, because all the rest are just stylistic differences in what we deem as "progression" or the most enjoyable way to play the game.  You want to keep things the way they are because they benefit how you enjoy playing the game.  Others don't want to take that away from you, they just want to add a way to progress in the way they would like as well (I believe you called it "subjecting ourselves to a snails pace").  So if these proposed solutions don't really effect you, I don't understand why you are getting so up in arms and debating so vehemently.  Though a lot of us have said we'd love it if they ended vaulting that has never really been offered as a real solution because we know the developers won't undo it and it would undo the dilution fix (for those who saw it as a problem).  All the realistic options would only benefit you (increased iso, colorless covers, etc.) or have no impact on you (a separate token store).

I think you need to find something else to rage against.

I'm not raging at all, I like the current system......

I even said it in another thread - add 6 new types of LTs to account for every conceivable possibility, hell add 60 for all I care - there is no real harm in providing more options.

But don't try to act like that is all that is being discussed here.  People want to remove vaulting from the current token rewards and that is IMO a bad idea, and the desire to do so (from most others, not you) is a misunderstanding of what dilution really means, and failing to understand how progress can made much faster in a slightly different way with vaulting.

We might just have a big miscommunication problem here if that's been how you've read things... 

I've been reading comments and interpreting them as the majority of people are uninterested in hearing why this current system may be better for them, they're uninterested in all the pros of abandoning characters they're expecting to cover and use, they just want another option, another token to choose from, not to limit the options for people who like vaulting.

I've brought up how nonsensical it was for the developer to entertain the idea of completely removing vaulting in light of this discontent, just provide options...

I think you'll end up with a lot more agreement if you are clear about wanting more token options, that might actually be the only thing everyone can agree on

But in the absence of those other options we have vaulting.  And people being uninterested in hearing why the system might be better for them is EXACTLY the problem I've been facing ever since vaulting was rolled out.  Because those people are raging and trying to kill a system that has merit without even a willingness to fully consider it.

I don't have any issue with more token options, but I think you would be surprised on how many people are in disagreement over more token options.......have you seen the call for boycott on vintage heroics???

NewMcG

MarkersMake said:

Fightmastermpq said:

BoyWonder1914 said:

Fightmastermpq said:

BoyWonder1914 said:

Fightmastermpq said:

broll said:

Fightmastermpq said:

I have a dozen older 4s that are max covered but need about 3 months of ISO - similar to your older 3s.  So what is the solution?  You forget about the vaulted characters.  Those older 4s aren't going to add hardly any value to my roster, just like older 3s won't for you.  

That's easy to say when those dozen are probably bottom of the barrel 4*s like Mr. F, Venom, Spider-Gwen, etc.  For those of us who are struggling go get the covers for Iceman, Teen Jean, Thoress, etc. those characters will make a very big difference.

No, they really won't.  There are plenty of characters in the newest pool that are as good or better than the vaulted characters.  Maybe there are 1 or 2 vaulted characters that actually would make a "very big difference" in your ability to compete, but BH can take care of that.  For the most part though the newest crop is good enough to get the job done.

LMFAO @ you thinking YOU can tell someone else that upper-top tier 4-star characters won't impact their roster. This has got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard anyone say about vaulted characters. 

This is only because you are ignorant of upper tier play.  I have all the top tier 4*s champed.  I also have all but 2 of the newest 4*s champed.  So I am qualified to speak on how competitive you can be with them, and I can confirm that when boosted the newest 4*s have enough synergies and strong mechanics to be successful in both competitive PvE and PvP.

I didn't say they wouldn't impact your roster.  I said that won't "make a very big difference."  Because they simply won't.  I know they won't because I have just about all of them and use them all regularly and my success is dependent on which ones are boosted, not which ones are "top tier"

First of all, let's get this out of the way: Regular use of a new character = big difference to your roster. With me so far on that super basic concept? Because if not, then you should really take some time to learn what the words "impact" and "difference" mean. Secondly, I love how you seem to think getting on your high horse of "having x amount of 4s champed" somehow makes your viewpoint on this absolute in some kind of way. If anything, you're only making your viewpoints LESS valid because so few people actually identify with where your roster is. A new 4-star champ is nothing but a new toy to you that you might play with when you get around to feeling like it. Since you've been so removed from this point in the game for so long, let me remind you that to MOST PEOPLE, a newly champed IceMan, Hulkbuster, or Peggy is a big tinykitty deal. YOU don't get to tell someone else what that's SUPPOSED to mean to their roster.  

I also love how my supposed "ignorance of top tier play" somehow means that I don't understand that top tier characters aren't always boosted. Once again you somehow fail to realize that "competitive" doesn't mean the same thing for someone with your roster as someone who hasn't whaled their way into 5-star land. If someone is all of a sudden able to make 900 regularly in PVP or t10 in PVE because they now have a top tier character at their disposal, that's called a BIG DIFFERENCE. 

I stand by my original statement.  Anyone can BH IM40 and Peggy and ride that duo to 900 much more easily now than under the old system.  Anything beyond that quite frankly doesn't make a "big difference" in how well you can do in events.  I didn't say it wasn't a big deal - I like to play with new toys too.  But they never make a big difference over other 4s.

Not to 900. Maybe last month, but not anymore. 

Because everyone (due to vaulting) has a variation on Carol/Medusa/Wasp/Coulson/Blade that they can run against IM40/Peggy. 

Running IM40/Peggy/champed feature painted a big bullseye on you past 700 - champed 4* rosters would happily stomp on you. So you could run to 750-800 and I guess shield hop your way to 900 (I never had the HP to burn).

So now? You might be *able* to do it, but I would argue that the results of vaulting have made it harder to do so, not easier. 

So the vaulting has made it harder to make a run to 900, because the teams of non-vaulted are now more prevalent? This seems contradictory. It would seem to show that building teams of the current 12 (who are readily available) has made it easier. So if that's the case, vaulting has made it easier to climb?

smkspy

I can't get to 900 in pvp even with the new characters champed...

Fightmastermpq

MarkersMake said:

I have them. But you said you could take im40/peggy to 900. If that's not what you meant then that's not my problem. 

I wish you would rather just read the discussion before you jump in to make some irrelevant point.

The claim was that people need vaulted characters to hit 900 in PvP or T10 PvE, and my response was that no you really don't - and maybe you could make a case for 1 or 2 characters that someone could pick up (e.g. Peggy w/IM40) that would actually make a big difference, but by and large you can get there with the newer characters (e.g. Carol/Medusa/Wasp/Coulson/Blade), and/or set those 1 or 2 characters as BH and get them even quicker.

MarkersMake

Yes. But for 3* players, who would use Peggy to hit above their weight, vaulting has suddenly resulted in a huge jump in the predator to prey ratio. 

FokaiHI

This thread is insane already.

I had more to say, but why? The fact of the matter is that Vaulting wouldn't be as big of a deal if there was more ISO. If I could champ four 4*s a month playing hardcore while running my farm as well as the occasional 3* then I wouldn't gripe. I can't do I hope to champ two 4*s and keep up with the rest and that still takes a lot. 

fmftint

Just what we need, another thread debating the pros/cons of vaulting

Thanks

MarkersMake

Fightmastermpq said:

MarkersMake said:

I have them. But you said you could take im40/peggy to 900. If that's not what you meant then that's not my problem. 

I wish you would rather just read the discussion before you jump in to make some irrelevant point.

The claim was that people need vaulted characters to hit 900 in PvP or T10 PvE, and my response was that no you really don't - and maybe you could make a case for 1 or 2 characters that someone could pick up (e.g. Peggy w/IM40) that would actually make a big difference, but by and large you can get there with the newer characters (e.g. Carol/Medusa/Wasp/Coulson/Blade), and/or set those 1 or 2 characters as BH and get them even quicker.

Sorry, you are correct - for hitting 900, you can get there with the new 4* hotness. It won't be easy, because instead of a lucky few with top tier characters, most people will have them. But yes, definitely doable. 

Murder on the 3* players though... 

Fightmastermpq

MarkersMake said:

Yes. But for 3* players, who would use Peggy to hit above their weight, vaulting has suddenly resulted in a huge jump in the predator to prey ratio. 

I honestly can't tell if you are arguing with me or agreeing with me here.  Those 3* players can either set Peggy as BH, or champ newer 4* characters and become the predator rather than the prey much faster now.