Answers To The 8 Questions About Vaulting (5/2/17)

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  • edgewriter
    edgewriter Posts: 68 Match Maker
    Simple solution. Create new vault with entire 4-star and 5-star rosters for those who really want to pull that particular slot machine lever.
    That way if we feel like we have way too many of the current vault, we can put our CP into a separate 20CP store that gives us a chance for classics. That way we get to choose how we spend our CP.
  • Quebbster
    Quebbster Posts: 8,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    Ughlah said:
    I am the new player, well 6 month into the game, playing very active and this is where i'm totally stuck at the moment.

    I have all 2* and all 3* characters, most are covered, about half in each group are champed, from the 3* currently vaulted 4 are missing, so they progress. No major problem till this point, but there was no problem with 2* and 3* before, since you have a nice pull rate of 3-4 when you play very active. Bonus heroes is an awesome feature to get those last missing covers in 3* land. 

    Now to my 4* progression. I have 4 characters in the current vault covered, 7 are at 10 or above covers, the newest 4* is at 5 covers. My chance of pulling a dupe cover are 19/36. I pull around 3 bonus hero covers per month for my 4*. 90% of my remaining 4* are at 1-4 covers,  and I still miss 6 of them altogether.

    Now the problem of vaulting kicks in: ISO. I average at 34000 iso per day. Champing the remaining 3* in the vault will cost me 2 weeks, champing the remaining 3* and 2* will cost me around 3 month. Till I have done so I can keep pulling all tokens and will get more and more 4* dupes which i will have to sell cause I lack iso. So I rather wait 3-4 month, hoard for the entire time, till chances of dupes have gone down a little bit. My progress in 3* land goes down a lot, since I will stop pulling heroic tokens as well.

    Ok, I'm doing something wrong, so let's play through the next option, just champ the current 3* and champ the 4* I can. I save up iso for 2 month, champ them and hoarded in the meantime. I pull my tokens, get my top 3 4* to around level 271 and i'm happy till the next pve event starts. Enemies are superhard for my 3* roster, one of my 4* is even boosted, but totally useless without synergy and I have no chance of getting any 4* rewards from here on. i'm totally frustrated, sell the champed 4* and i'm stuck at my original situation. 

    So what do you want me to do? Hoard for 6 month, then pull, hoard for another 6 month? Try to get to the 4* reward ranks with my 3* roster to fill the gaps?

    This vaulting works perfectly, if you just plan ahead 2-3 month. It is a total mess after that.





    You need to pull in around 25K ISO a day just to keep up with the fourstar releases (earning enough ISO to max one fourstar Before the next is released). You are a bit above that number, so you are making progress. The huge number of different characters needing that ISO means it will be a long time Before you Catch up though.

    Personally I Think it is better to focus on the Three-star characters first.

  • edgewriter
    edgewriter Posts: 68 Match Maker
    My biggest current issue with vaulting is that in PVP all I see are the same three heroes. Everyone uses Peggy with a mix of Wasp/ Marvel/ Blade. If all the new people can only get those twelve. That is all we'll ever see. Makes for some boring PVP especially the Shield Season PVP.
  • Quebbster
    Quebbster Posts: 8,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    edgewriter said:
    My biggest current issue with vaulting is that in PVP all I see are the same three heroes. Everyone uses Peggy with a mix of Wasp/ Marvel/ Blade. If all the new people can only get those twelve. That is all we'll ever see. Makes for some boring PVP especially the Shield Season PVP.

    Peggy has been out for some time though (in fact she recently left the token pool), so it's not strange that many people have her fully covered, particularly since she has been awarded multiple times in PvE and a lot of people picked her as a favorite. People will roster and level more characters, so there will be other characters in the future you see on everyone's team.
  • Starfury
    Starfury Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
    edited May 2017
    Spudgutter said:

    You could take 6 months of daily play, with some effort towards PVE, and hoard everything.  By November, you will have plenty of HP and CP to jump into the 4* transition.  And when that happens (assuming nothing changes), you will be pulling from a pool of 12 instead of 50+, almost guaranteeing to max cover several.  With the ISO stored up, you immediately jump from 3* to 4* player.   I don't see how that is such a bad thing.
    You realize that you're arguing "You only have to put in the work for half a year and then you'll get your reward"?

    This is a game, not life. The two are supposed to exist on different timescales.

    Quebbster said:
    edgewriter said:
    My biggest current issue with vaulting is that in PVP all I see are the same three heroes. Everyone uses Peggy with a mix of Wasp/ Marvel/ Blade. If all the new people can only get those twelve. That is all we'll ever see. Makes for some boring PVP especially the Shield Season PVP.

    Peggy has been out for some time though (in fact she recently left the token pool), so it's not strange that many people have her fully covered, particularly since she has been awarded multiple times in PvE and a lot of people picked her as a favorite. People will roster and level more characters, so there will be other characters in the future you see on everyone's team.
    Not until another batch of characters come out, that can reach such a ridiculous amount of special tile damage.
    But that's another issue.

  • Crowl
    Crowl Posts: 1,580 Chairperson of the Boards
    New McG said:
    NMANOZ said:
    Bonus Legendary Vault (20 CP):

    Covers for the 4 star bonus heroes you have chosen ONLY.


    A wonderful idea from the player side of things. Until you realize you're letting people pick exactly what 4* they buy a cover for for 20 CP by selecting a single BH. Never gonna happen at that price. Specific character covers cost 120 for a 4*. This would need to be more like 100 CP to be similar.
    They could do something like that, but make you select a minimum amount of characters, this would also somewhat cover the complaint about BH's only being useful for at most one character too. 
  • NewMcG
    NewMcG Posts: 368 Mover and Shaker
    Crowl said:
    New McG said:
    NMANOZ said:
    Bonus Legendary Vault (20 CP):

    Covers for the 4 star bonus heroes you have chosen ONLY.


    A wonderful idea from the player side of things. Until you realize you're letting people pick exactly what 4* they buy a cover for for 20 CP by selecting a single BH. Never gonna happen at that price. Specific character covers cost 120 for a 4*. This would need to be more like 100 CP to be similar.
    They could do something like that, but make you select a minimum amount of characters, this would also somewhat cover the complaint about BH's only being useful for at most one character too. 
    I also don't think the programming side of things is being factored in with such an idea. The programming process for tokens is involved. Now you're talking about allowing for a completely different token, with its pool designed by the end user, for every single player in the game.
  • MarkersMake
    MarkersMake Posts: 392 Mover and Shaker
    New McG said:
    Crowl said:
    New McG said:
    NMANOZ said:
    Bonus Legendary Vault (20 CP):

    Covers for the 4 star bonus heroes you have chosen ONLY.


    A wonderful idea from the player side of things. Until you realize you're letting people pick exactly what 4* they buy a cover for for 20 CP by selecting a single BH. Never gonna happen at that price. Specific character covers cost 120 for a 4*. This would need to be more like 100 CP to be similar.
    They could do something like that, but make you select a minimum amount of characters, this would also somewhat cover the complaint about BH's only being useful for at most one character too. 
    I also don't think the programming side of things is being factored in with such an idea. The programming process for tokens is involved. Now you're talking about allowing for a completely different token, with its pool designed by the end user, for every single player in the game.

    They already have a list of bonus heroes for every player in the game. Keeping a custom token list isn't really that much more work <insert caveat about not having seen the actual code here>.

    I had an idea back in the original Bonus Heroes thread along the same lines, but letting the player choose only 3 of the 12 slots (because I'm not greedy, lol):


    There's a very easy solution to vaulting that makes everyone happy (I'm sure it must have been suggested already, but 46 pages is a lot to wade through): customizable tokens.

    Not fully custom tokens; customizable tokens.

    Take the current 4* token with the latest 12. Keep feeding new 4*s in, and removing the oldest. But give players control of 3 of those character slots. Want to replace Riri with Rulk? Go for it. Agent Venom with Venom (Eddie Brock)? Well, I won't stop you. Mordo with Iceman? Ha, so will I!

    This way, players get more control over who they pull, the effects of dilution are reduced, pull rates (of desired older characters) are increased (3 out of 12 chance - amazing!), and d3 still gets to push their newest characters without forcing the occasional dud on us. And if you want to farm champ levels on older characters, you can!

    Implementation issues aside, who loses? A popular definition of compromise is one in which nobody is happy, but who would honestly be unhappy with that, and why (aside from the obvious "everyone who champed their Rulk/Iceman/etc the normal way")?

    At an abstract programming level, you'd be randomly choosing one of the 12 slots, then doing a lookup to see which character is in that slot (and a second lookup if that slot is flagged as player-determined).  Nothing too crazy to implement.

  • Ughlah
    Ughlah Posts: 6 Just Dropped In
    Quebbster said:
    Ughlah said:
    I am the new player, well 6 month into the game, playing very active and this is where i'm totally stuck at the moment.

    ...


    You need to pull in around 25K ISO a day just to keep up with the fourstar releases (earning enough ISO to max one fourstar Before the next is released). You are a bit above that number, so you are making progress. The huge number of different characters needing that ISO means it will be a long time Before you Catch up though.

    Personally I Think it is better to focus on the Three-star characters first.

    Sorry, Quebbster, that is the short sighted way, that is exactly what the developers argue with. I can't max 4*, I cannot keep up with champing 4*. That isn't realistic at all. That is something that would happen a lot later. Of course I am stuck in the 3-4* transition. Of course I have to champ the 3* first. But with all this vaulting it does make me go faster while I run against a wall. Feels great while you are running, not so much when you arrive. 

    Let's say I keep pulling heroic tokens and they switch around the 3* a little, within 5 month I will have around a dozen 3* at level 230-240, another 15 characters at around 200 and another 20 totally stuck undercovered or not worth champing, since they cannot grow. With some luck I can build some teams that have a good synergy in 3* land. 

    Within the same 5 month I have sold 80%-90% of my 4 star pulls, since we don't hoard and I have the latest characters covered, but the vintage 4* are still at 0-3 covers, locking me out of the behemoth fights a lot of the time, locking me out of pve fights a lot of the times and so on.

    Let's look at behemoth challenges. In particular today: My Switch looks pretty good, my iceman has 1 green cover. Let's see whom I have to fight. Jean grey, magneto and black widow. I try to cancel my own countdown all the times, cause it would stun and damage me, but what I need most ist purple - awesome. Every time a good vintage 4* is in the behemoth challenge I am in trouble, since they don't want the fight to be too easy. So I can't do the fights I lack the 4* for, can't do the fights for quite a few 4*, since a single 3* has trouble against a whole team, even leveled.

    Doing the Clash of Titans is something I can wait at least one more year.

    The point is i am forced to hoard, since I lack the iso to progress in 4* land and I would pull dupes the whole time. I cannot build up any vintage 4* without spending around 20 Euro per vintage cover. And if I hoard I progress a lot slower and become frustrated since I cannot even do the daily challenges. Does this game really expect me to buy 20-30 iso packages for 78000/100 Euro AND spend around 2500 Euro just to get to a solid 4* base? Not even talking about 5*. 


     

  • Quebbster
    Quebbster Posts: 8,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    Ughlah said:
    Quebbster said:
    Ughlah said:
    I am the new player, well 6 month into the game, playing very active and this is where i'm totally stuck at the moment.

    ...


    You need to pull in around 25K ISO a day just to keep up with the fourstar releases (earning enough ISO to max one fourstar Before the next is released). You are a bit above that number, so you are making progress. The huge number of different characters needing that ISO means it will be a long time Before you Catch up though.

    Personally I Think it is better to focus on the Three-star characters first.

    Sorry, Quebbster, that is the short sighted way, that is exactly what the developers argue with. I can't max 4*, I cannot keep up with champing 4*. That isn't realistic at all. That is something that would happen a lot later. Of course I am stuck in the 3-4* transition. Of course I have to champ the 3* first. But with all this vaulting it does make me go faster while I run against a wall. Feels great while you are running, not so much when you arrive. 

    Let's say I keep pulling heroic tokens and they switch around the 3* a little, within 5 month I will have around a dozen 3* at level 230-240, another 15 characters at around 200 and another 20 totally stuck undercovered or not worth champing, since they cannot grow. With some luck I can build some teams that have a good synergy in 3* land. 

    Within the same 5 month I have sold 80%-90% of my 4 star pulls, since we don't hoard and I have the latest characters covered, but the vintage 4* are still at 0-3 covers, locking me out of the behemoth fights a lot of the time, locking me out of pve fights a lot of the times and so on.

    Let's look at behemoth challenges. In particular today: My Switch looks pretty good, my iceman has 1 green cover. Let's see whom I have to fight. Jean grey, magneto and black widow. I try to cancel my own countdown all the times, cause it would stun and damage me, but what I need most ist purple - awesome. Every time a good vintage 4* is in the behemoth challenge I am in trouble, since they don't want the fight to be too easy. So I can't do the fights I lack the 4* for, can't do the fights for quite a few 4*, since a single 3* has trouble against a whole team, even leveled.

    Doing the Clash of Titans is something I can wait at least one more year.

    The point is i am forced to hoard, since I lack the iso to progress in 4* land and I would pull dupes the whole time. I cannot build up any vintage 4* without spending around 20 Euro per vintage cover. And if I hoard I progress a lot slower and become frustrated since I cannot even do the daily challenges. Does this game really expect me to buy 20-30 iso packages for 78000/100 Euro AND spend around 2500 Euro just to get to a solid 4* base? Not even talking about 5*. 


     


    All threestars can grow thanks to the DDQ. Sure, it's a lot slower for the ones that are not in tokens and aren't available through two-star farming, but you can make a Little progress on them at least. There's only one way to eat an elephant - one bite at a time.

    As for the fourstars, it is very true that the game rewards having a wide roster, so if you want to compete you probably should take every chance to get the fourstar covers where you can - threestar champion rewards and the occasional PvE progression reward should be gettable at least. It's not much, but that also puts a minimal drain on your ISO reserves.

    Forcing the player's Scarlet Witch to fight the AI's Jean Grey was definitely not the greatest idea. Still, with the recent change so that Scarlet Witch cannot change teamup tiles you can try to minimize the risk for a match-5 with smart matches. It's definitely not an easy fight, but if you can get a blue cover for Iceman it gets a lot easier.

    My Point is simply that you have started going up the hill and you have quite a long way left to the summit, but eventually it will get easier. Probably not in the foreseeable future though.

  • Alsmir
    Alsmir Posts: 508 Critical Contributor
    Ducky said:
    I think the problem with the way the forum sees vaulting versus how the devs see it is a matter of perspective.

    The devs target audience for vaulting makes up a very small percentage of the forums, I think, as we mostly have developed rosters and vaulting wasn't made to directly benefit that demographic. Vaulting was made to benefit the very, very large portion of the player base that doesn't frequent the forums, that doesn't sniff the t100.

    I think this is why there has been such an impasse on the subject between the two sides. We want to be able to continue to grow are nice and shinies while the devs want to give the vast majority of the player base a chance to even get a couple nice and shinies, which is why Dave mentioned that dilution in packs is bad for the longevity of the game.

    Do I know of a way to make vaulting more palatable to the forumites? Nope, lol. But I don't think it is by basically repackaging dilution into a smaller form in more subsets of tokens. My hope is that the vintage heroics are just a stopgap solution while they work on something more dynamic to help alleviate the forum's concerns regarding vaulting. Only time will tell, though, and I hope in the end it all works out.
    With different CLs available, even my casual play lets me usually hit top100 (granted I play on CL7 instead of 8). So are we talking about those super casual players that make the majority of player base?

    If you don't hit the top100, most likely you won't even get close to max progression in PvE and not hit 575 points in PvP.
    That limits your CP gains to maybe 10 from PvE and some extras from buritos. This will give you maybe 100cp per month? Even with some extra rewards that player will get maybe 7 LTs per month. Without hoarding he will have to rely on a lot of luck from RNG to cover anyone, before they get vaulted.
  • Fightmastermpq
    Fightmastermpq Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    Ughlah said:
    I am the new player, well 6 month into the game, playing very active and this is where i'm totally stuck at the moment.

    I have all 2* and all 3* characters, most are covered, about half in each group are champed, from the 3* currently vaulted 4 are missing, so they progress. No major problem till this point, but there was no problem with 2* and 3* before, since you have a nice pull rate of 3-4 when you play very active. Bonus heroes is an awesome feature to get those last missing covers in 3* land. 

    Now to my 4* progression. I have 4 characters in the current vault covered, 7 are at 10 or above covers, the newest 4* is at 5 covers. My chance of pulling a dupe cover are 19/36. I pull around 3 bonus hero covers per month for my 4*. 90% of my remaining 4* are at 1-4 covers,  and I still miss 6 of them altogether.

    Now the problem of vaulting kicks in: ISO. I average at 34000 iso per day. Champing the remaining 3* in the vault will cost me 2 weeks, champing the remaining 3* and 2* will cost me around 3 month. Till I have done so I can keep pulling all tokens and will get more and more 4* dupes which i will have to sell cause I lack iso. So I rather wait 3-4 month, hoard for the entire time, till chances of dupes have gone down a little bit. My progress in 3* land goes down a lot, since I will stop pulling heroic tokens as well.

    Ok, I'm doing something wrong, so let's play through the next option, just champ the current 3* and champ the 4* I can. I save up iso for 2 month, champ them and hoarded in the meantime. I pull my tokens, get my top 3 4* to around level 271 and i'm happy till the next pve event starts. Enemies are superhard for my 3* roster, one of my 4* is even boosted, but totally useless without synergy and I have no chance of getting any 4* rewards from here on. i'm totally frustrated, sell the champed 4* and i'm stuck at my original situation. 

    So what do you want me to do? Hoard for 6 month, then pull, hoard for another 6 month? Try to get to the 4* reward ranks with my 3* roster to fill the gaps?

    This vaulting works perfectly, if you just plan ahead 2-3 month. It is a total mess after that.




    You are making this way harder than it needs to be.  I'm in a very similar situation believe it or not as most of my 3s are at 266 and I'm working through champing dupes while trying to keep pace with my newest 4*s as well.  I have a dozen older 4s that are max covered but need about 3 months of ISO - similar to your older 3s.  So what is the solution?  You forget about the vaulted characters.  Those older 4s aren't going to add hardly any value to my roster, just like older 3s won't for you.  I'm making a good bit more ISO than you so I can comfortably open everything I get and just champ as I go, but at 34k/day you don't need to hoard for 6 months, that's just nuts.  You open your tokens, calculate the ISO you need to champ characters before their covers expire, and stop once you have a full plate.  At 34k it only takes 4 days to champ a 3* from 40, or 10-11 days to champ a 4* from 70.  So you can actually open everything until you have three 3* covers on the vine that need to be champed, or until you get to 13 on a newest 4* with no more than one 3* on the vine since you could champ both a 3* and a 4* within 2 weeks.

    You don't need to have the ISO on hand to open a token, you just need to be able to make enough ISO to use that token before it expires 2 weeks later.
  • NewMcG
    NewMcG Posts: 368 Mover and Shaker
    MarkersMake said:
    New McG said:
    Crowl said:
    New McG said:
    NMANOZ said:
    Bonus Legendary Vault (20 CP):

    Covers for the 4 star bonus heroes you have chosen ONLY.


    A wonderful idea from the player side of things. Until you realize you're letting people pick exactly what 4* they buy a cover for for 20 CP by selecting a single BH. Never gonna happen at that price. Specific character covers cost 120 for a 4*. This would need to be more like 100 CP to be similar.
    They could do something like that, but make you select a minimum amount of characters, this would also somewhat cover the complaint about BH's only being useful for at most one character too. 
    I also don't think the programming side of things is being factored in with such an idea. The programming process for tokens is involved. Now you're talking about allowing for a completely different token, with its pool designed by the end user, for every single player in the game.

    They already have a list of bonus heroes for every player in the game. Keeping a custom token list isn't really that much more work <insert caveat about not having seen the actual code here>.

    I had an idea back in the original Bonus Heroes thread along the same lines, but letting the player choose only 3 of the 12 slots (because I'm not greedy, lol):


    There's a very easy solution to vaulting that makes everyone happy (I'm sure it must have been suggested already, but 46 pages is a lot to wade through): customizable tokens.

    Not fully custom tokens; customizable tokens.

    Take the current 4* token with the latest 12. Keep feeding new 4*s in, and removing the oldest. But give players control of 3 of those character slots. Want to replace Riri with Rulk? Go for it. Agent Venom with Venom (Eddie Brock)? Well, I won't stop you. Mordo with Iceman? Ha, so will I!

    This way, players get more control over who they pull, the effects of dilution are reduced, pull rates (of desired older characters) are increased (3 out of 12 chance - amazing!), and d3 still gets to push their newest characters without forcing the occasional dud on us. And if you want to farm champ levels on older characters, you can!

    Implementation issues aside, who loses? A popular definition of compromise is one in which nobody is happy, but who would honestly be unhappy with that, and why (aside from the obvious "everyone who champed their Rulk/Iceman/etc the normal way")?

    At an abstract programming level, you'd be randomly choosing one of the 12 slots, then doing a lookup to see which character is in that slot (and a second lookup if that slot is flagged as player-determined).  Nothing too crazy to implement.

    My programming history is limited to some basic classes, over a decade ago, so I have no real insight to the true difficulty of it. Abstractly, sure, it may seem simple. In its simplest form it would be cross referencing a few tables of info against each other, but there's quite a few other factors that complicate it. If they used the BH table for it, then there would be people who would get the pitchforks out about how they are FORCING the player to use their BH in the tokens, and that's UNFAIR to take away the FREEDOM of the player. (Or something to that effect.)

    Then there's the situation of what to do if no heroes get selected for this theoretical token, the same way if no BH gets selected. In that case, everyone stays in the BH pool, but what in the case of no "favorites" or whatever you'd call this group in a theoretical custom token? Everyone goes in? Nobody goes in? Latest group? Oldest group? There's a lot of strange, complicated contingencies to consider, many of which would never occur to us, but would inevitably present themselves over the course of hundreds of thousands, up to possibly millions, of players (all with varying play styles and levels of engagement) being thrown into this theoretical system.

    I think a lot of it also has to do with keeping it as streamlined as possible. If a new player comes in and now on 3 and 4* characters, there's a Heart icon to assign a Bonus Hero, and, say, a Star for "put character in Custom Token X", that's one more possible confusion for someone new to the game. The less data points the better when it comes to user-friendliness. (And presumably programming. Adding a couple million new data tables worth of "user character preference data" to the server-side load is probably a pretty daunting task when it comes to making sure everything runs smoothly, all while still keeping the game up and running as they try to implement any broad changes.)
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    Alsmir said:
    Ducky said:
    I think the problem with the way the forum sees vaulting versus how the devs see it is a matter of perspective.

    The devs target audience for vaulting makes up a very small percentage of the forums, I think, as we mostly have developed rosters and vaulting wasn't made to directly benefit that demographic. Vaulting was made to benefit the very, very large portion of the player base that doesn't frequent the forums, that doesn't sniff the t100.

    I think this is why there has been such an impasse on the subject between the two sides. We want to be able to continue to grow are nice and shinies while the devs want to give the vast majority of the player base a chance to even get a couple nice and shinies, which is why Dave mentioned that dilution in packs is bad for the longevity of the game.

    Do I know of a way to make vaulting more palatable to the forumites? Nope, lol. But I don't think it is by basically repackaging dilution into a smaller form in more subsets of tokens. My hope is that the vintage heroics are just a stopgap solution while they work on something more dynamic to help alleviate the forum's concerns regarding vaulting. Only time will tell, though, and I hope in the end it all works out.
    With different CLs available, even my casual play lets me usually hit top100 (granted I play on CL7 instead of 8). So are we talking about those super casual players that make the majority of player base?

    If you don't hit the top100, most likely you won't even get close to max progression in PvE and not hit 575 points in PvP.
    That limits your CP gains to maybe 10 from PvE and some extras from buritos. This will give you maybe 100cp per month? Even with some extra rewards that player will get maybe 7 LTs per month. Without hoarding he will have to rely on a lot of luck from RNG to cover anyone, before they get vaulted.
    Think about what you're saying.PvE brackets have 1000 players per and PvP have 500 (I think).  So T100 is PvE = top 10% and T100 in PvP = top 20%.  By definition a majority of players cannot be in the top 10/20 %.  Ducky means this was targetted at the bottom 80/90% of players.  

    The problem IMO, is that this isn't better for those players either, not really, they just are so causal they don't understand the game mechanics enough to know that it's bad for them.
  • Fightmastermpq
    Fightmastermpq Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    edited May 2017
    Alsmir said:
    Ducky said:
    I think the problem with the way the forum sees vaulting versus how the devs see it is a matter of perspective.

    The devs target audience for vaulting makes up a very small percentage of the forums, I think, as we mostly have developed rosters and vaulting wasn't made to directly benefit that demographic. Vaulting was made to benefit the very, very large portion of the player base that doesn't frequent the forums, that doesn't sniff the t100.

    I think this is why there has been such an impasse on the subject between the two sides. We want to be able to continue to grow are nice and shinies while the devs want to give the vast majority of the player base a chance to even get a couple nice and shinies, which is why Dave mentioned that dilution in packs is bad for the longevity of the game.

    Do I know of a way to make vaulting more palatable to the forumites? Nope, lol. But I don't think it is by basically repackaging dilution into a smaller form in more subsets of tokens. My hope is that the vintage heroics are just a stopgap solution while they work on something more dynamic to help alleviate the forum's concerns regarding vaulting. Only time will tell, though, and I hope in the end it all works out.
    With different CLs available, even my casual play lets me usually hit top100 (granted I play on CL7 instead of 8). So are we talking about those super casual players that make the majority of player base?

    If you don't hit the top100, most likely you won't even get close to max progression in PvE and not hit 575 points in PvP.
    That limits your CP gains to maybe 10 from PvE and some extras from buritos. This will give you maybe 100cp per month? Even with some extra rewards that player will get maybe 7 LTs per month. Without hoarding he will have to rely on a lot of luck from RNG to cover anyone, before they get vaulted.
    I did the math on this in the other thread and you need about one 4* cover every other day to cover a new character before they are vaulted - if you can manage 3 at release.  If you need to pull all 13 it requires about 2 tokens every 3 days.  To me this sounds reasonable for any player serious enough to be attempting a 4* transition.

    I'm pretty sure that n25 is the only person crazy enough to think that "super casual" and "4* transitioner" can describe the same player.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    Fightmastermpq said:
    I have a dozen older 4s that are max covered but need about 3 months of ISO - similar to your older 3s.  So what is the solution?  You forget about the vaulted characters.  Those older 4s aren't going to add hardly any value to my roster, just like older 3s won't for you.  
    That's easy to say when those dozen are probably bottom of the barrel 4*s like Mr. F, Venom, Spider-Gwen, etc.  For those of us who are struggling go get the covers for Iceman, Teen Jean, Thoress, etc. those characters will make a very big difference.

    What's worse even if we do manage to scrap up the 13 covers for those, we'll never see them be at level 300+ despite having to fight opponents who have them much higher.
  • Starfury
    Starfury Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
    Alsmir said:

    With different CLs available, even my casual play lets me usually hit top100 (granted I play on CL7 instead of 8). So are we talking about those super casual players that make the majority of player base?

    If you don't hit the top100, most likely you won't even get close to max progression in PvE and not hit 575 points in PvP.
    That limits your CP gains to maybe 10 from PvE and some extras from buritos. This will give you maybe 100cp per month? Even with some extra rewards that player will get maybe 7 LTs per month. Without hoarding he will have to rely on a lot of luck from RNG to cover anyone, before they get vaulted.
    If you're hitting top 100 you're not a casual player. (I suppose you're hitting max progression in PvE, which means you play for more than an hour each and every day)
  • philosorapt0r
    philosorapt0r Posts: 36 Just Dropped In
    I like what this does to solve the problem of new 4*s taking too long to cover to be relevant.

    Suggestions to help those who (a) prefer to get more champion levels for their older 4*s, or (b) want to cover various older 4*s:

    * Have rotating CP cover stores that highlight different groups of 4*s (either groups of 6-12 by age, or by theme---Spiderverse, X-men, Inhumans, Guardians, Avengers....) so people who want to build up certain teams of 4*s to high-champion level have a means to do so.  The players who are collecting tons of CP and have specific desires for their roster are willing to wait for something to come around in rotation (ala saving Tacos for specific 3*s in the vault at an earlier roster stage), as long as every couple months we can have a method of raising a given cluster of our roster.
    Especially as more characters (IF/LC, F4, Guardians) are having mechanical ties to others, letting people focus on a cluster of such characters together will (a) make those characters more likely to be usable, and (b) lead to more roster diversity, as people pursue different clusters of favorites (rather than everyone favoriting Carol/Peggy/Rhulk/Iceman forever, leading those characters to appear more than if people could build others up past the 270-300 range). 

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