Answers To The 8 Questions About Vaulting (5/2/17)

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  • MarkersMake
    MarkersMake Posts: 392 Mover and Shaker
    Fightmastermpq said:
    MarkersMake said:
    Yes. But for 3* players, who would use Peggy to hit above their weight, vaulting has suddenly resulted in a huge jump in the predator to prey ratio. 
    I honestly can't tell if you are arguing with me or agreeing with me here.  Those 3* players can either set Peggy as BH, or champ newer 4* characters and become the predator rather than the prey much faster now.

    Ha, sort of both. As a recent 3* graduate, poking your head above 600 was an invitation to get your head knocked clean off. 800 was for people who shielded a lot (bought HP, I assume) and 900 was a fairy tale.

    And that was before the 4* power bump that everyone can get now. I'm honestly not sure if even reaching 575 and the cp it comes with is going to be as easy as it used to be (which in turn makes getting those 4* champs tougher). 
  • MarkersMake
    MarkersMake Posts: 392 Mover and Shaker
    edited May 2017
    But a thought just occurred to me. One of the main sources of 4* pulls when I transitioned were the LTs I got from each of my 3* champs. 

    With vaulting, half of those options are going to be gone. Here's your 20LTs (best case), hope you have some CP?

    So as far as setting Peggy as a BH, where are they going to get 260 4* pulls from? That's before deducting 15% for 5*s and assuming perfect covers.. 

    EDIT - I'll assume [Event tokens (not Heroics, since she's vaulted)] can make up the difference from 15% 5*s, but that's still a lot of cp-based pulls for a 3* player. 
  • NewMcG
    NewMcG Posts: 368 Mover and Shaker
    edited May 2017
    MarkersMake said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    MarkersMake said:
    Yes. But for 3* players, who would use Peggy to hit above their weight, vaulting has suddenly resulted in a huge jump in the predator to prey ratio. 
    I honestly can't tell if you are arguing with me or agreeing with me here.  Those 3* players can either set Peggy as BH, or champ newer 4* characters and become the predator rather than the prey much faster now.

    Ha, sort of both. As a recent 3* graduate, poking your head above 600 was an invitation to get your head knocked clean off. 800 was for people who shielded a lot (bought HP, I assume) and 900 was a fairy tale.

    And that was before the 4* power bump that everyone can get now. I'm honestly not sure if even reaching 575 and the cp it comes with is going to be as easy as it used to be (which in turn makes getting those 4* champs tougher). 
    575 shouldn't be a huge issue at the point you're at. The run to 900 is a different story. Even with a top tier 4 like Peggy, having her as your only real 4* heavy hitter makes you a target no matter what boosted 3 and featured character you might pair with her.

    I've got close to 20 champed 4s now and 900 can still be a dicey proposition depending on boosted characters and how much of a slog the matches can be when you're trying to win matches in a quick fashion. I'm almost relieved when the 900 reward is something I don't need or can't use. Takes the pressure off to make that push. If I can hit the 800/825/850 rewards, awesome. If not, well, I'm not spending HP to shield and compete in PVP, so wherever I end up is cool.
  • NewMcG
    NewMcG Posts: 368 Mover and Shaker
    MarkersMake said:
    But a thought just occurred to me. One of the main sources of 4* pulls when I transitioned were the LTs I got from each of my 3* champs. 

    With vaulting, half of those options are going to be gone. Here's your 20LTs (best case), hope you have some CP?

    So as far as setting Peggy as a BH, where are they going to get 260 4* pulls from? That's before deducting 15% for 5*s and assuming perfect covers.. 
    You're also assuming they're only buying LT, and never happen into a 4* from another place, like a Heroic token, event token, etc. The math is by no means simple on all of this, and for many, even having solid math that shows it's beneficial to them wouldn't be enough to convince them that their roster growth benefits from vaulting.
  • MarkersMake
    MarkersMake Posts: 392 Mover and Shaker
    edited May 2017
    New McG said:
    MarkersMake said:
    But a thought just occurred to me. One of the main sources of 4* pulls when I transitioned were the LTs I got from each of my 3* champs. 

    With vaulting, half of those options are going to be gone. Here's your 20LTs (best case), hope you have some CP?

    So as far as setting Peggy as a BH, where are they going to get 260 4* pulls from? That's before deducting 15% for 5*s and assuming perfect covers.. 
    You're also assuming they're only buying LT, and never happen into a 4* from another place, like a Heroic token, event token, etc. The math is by no means simple on all of this, and for many, even having solid math that shows it's beneficial to them wouldn't be enough to convince them that their roster growth benefits from vaulting.
    Well, heroics won't help with Peggy since she's vaulted. So it's just event tokens and CP/LTs, right? 

    EDIT - even PvE rewards for a Peggy cover are going to be tough. Progression, sure. But placement will require alignment of the stars, because with vaulted 3*s AND vaulted 4*s, the chances of such a player having both 3* and 4* essentials rostered AND being able to parlay that into a t10 finish as well are..... slim. 
  • MarkersMake
    MarkersMake Posts: 392 Mover and Shaker
    New McG said:
    MarkersMake said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    MarkersMake said:
    Yes. But for 3* players, who would use Peggy to hit above their weight, vaulting has suddenly resulted in a huge jump in the predator to prey ratio. 
    I honestly can't tell if you are arguing with me or agreeing with me here.  Those 3* players can either set Peggy as BH, or champ newer 4* characters and become the predator rather than the prey much faster now.

    Ha, sort of both. As a recent 3* graduate, poking your head above 600 was an invitation to get your head knocked clean off. 800 was for people who shielded a lot (bought HP, I assume) and 900 was a fairy tale.

    And that was before the 4* power bump that everyone can get now. I'm honestly not sure if even reaching 575 and the cp it comes with is going to be as easy as it used to be (which in turn makes getting those 4* champs tougher). 
    575 shouldn't be a huge issue at the point you're at. The run to 900 is a different story. Even with a top tier 4 like Peggy, having her as your only real 4* heavy hitter makes you a target no matter what boosted 3 and featured character you might pair with her.



    Just for the record, I'm hitting 800-850 if I try at all, not 575/600, so this isn't about me. 

    But for 3* players (where I was 4 months ago), this is a big deal. 

  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
    New McG said:
    MarkersMake said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    MarkersMake said:
    Yes. But for 3* players, who would use Peggy to hit above their weight, vaulting has suddenly resulted in a huge jump in the predator to prey ratio. 
    I honestly can't tell if you are arguing with me or agreeing with me here.  Those 3* players can either set Peggy as BH, or champ newer 4* characters and become the predator rather than the prey much faster now.

    Ha, sort of both. As a recent 3* graduate, poking your head above 600 was an invitation to get your head knocked clean off. 800 was for people who shielded a lot (bought HP, I assume) and 900 was a fairy tale.

    And that was before the 4* power bump that everyone can get now. I'm honestly not sure if even reaching 575 and the cp it comes with is going to be as easy as it used to be (which in turn makes getting those 4* champs tougher). 
    575 shouldn't be a huge issue at the point you're at. The run to 900 is a different story. Even with a top tier 4 like Peggy, having her as your only real 4* heavy hitter makes you a target no matter what boosted 3 and featured character you might pair with her.

    I've got close to 20 champed 4s now and 900 can still be a dicey proposition depending on boosted characters and how much of a slog the matches can be when you're trying to win matches in a quick fashion. I'm almost relieved when the 900 reward is something I don't need or can't use. Takes the pressure off to make that push. If I can hit the 800/825/850 rewards, awesome. If not, well, I'm not spending HP to shield and compete in PVP, so wherever I end up is cool.
    I second this, I'm about to champ my 18th 4* and 900 can be a chore to get to, especially if the boost list is not favoring my champ list. 
  • Ducky
    Ducky Posts: 2,255 Community Moderator
    **Please keep discussion on topic of the OP. Thanks!**
  • NewMcG
    NewMcG Posts: 368 Mover and Shaker
    MarkersMake said:
    New McG said:
    MarkersMake said:
    But a thought just occurred to me. One of the main sources of 4* pulls when I transitioned were the LTs I got from each of my 3* champs. 

    With vaulting, half of those options are going to be gone. Here's your 20LTs (best case), hope you have some CP?

    So as far as setting Peggy as a BH, where are they going to get 260 4* pulls from? That's before deducting 15% for 5*s and assuming perfect covers.. 
    You're also assuming they're only buying LT, and never happen into a 4* from another place, like a Heroic token, event token, etc. The math is by no means simple on all of this, and for many, even having solid math that shows it's beneficial to them wouldn't be enough to convince them that their roster growth benefits from vaulting.
    Well, heroics won't help with Peggy since she's vaulted. So it's just event tokens and CP/LTs, right? 

    EDIT - even PvE rewards for a Peggy cover are going to be tough. Progression, sure. But placement will require alignment of the stars, because with vaulted 3*s AND vaulted 4*s, the chances of such a player having both 3* and 4* essentials rostered AND being able to parlay that into a t10 finish as well are..... slim. 
    Heroics drop 4*. That can trigger a BH. Peggy is just as likely to be a BH from a 4 in a heroic as she is from a 4 in an LT.
  • MarkersMake
    MarkersMake Posts: 392 Mover and Shaker
    Ah you're right. Still, it's 1% for a 4* BH out of a heroic, so maybe 2 or 3  covers out of there. 

    Any way you look at it though, by the time you cover her you'll have pulled 200+ other 4* covers. She'll be irrelevant by then. 
  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2017
    What I don't really understand is when I was making the 2*-3* transition there were almost as many 3* characters then as there are 4* characters now (maybe 10 less). But token dilution wasn't a problem then mainly because 3* covers come from many different places (I've pretty much always finished t50 in pve). I think the best answer to token dilution in the 4* tier is not to remove characters from the vaults but OPEN UP CLEARANCE LEVELS 9 AND FREAKING 10 ALREADY AND HAVE THE REWARDS STRUCTURE BE NOT INSULTING TO A 4* ROSTER, I. E. GIVE 4* COVERS PAST T10 ON PVE AND PAST T5 ON PVP. IDK MAYBE T100-250!!! MAYBE EVEN GIVE 5* COVERS FOR T1-5-10!! 4* AND 5* COVERS ARE NOT WHAT THEY USED TO BE!!!

    When I started playing there were only 2 5* characters and a handful of 4*s, the covers were hard to come by but they should have been there really weren't that many characters on those tiers. But now 4*s are more numerous than 3*s and there are 15 5*s. Rather than taking characters out of tokens, give more away in progression and placement. And what is really irritating is the problem was *almost* solved with clearance levels, but for whatever reason you only went halfway. AGAIN GIVE US CLEARANCE LEVELS 9 AND 10 AND MAKE THE REWARD STRUCTURE APPROPRIATE FOR OUR ROSTER!!!! Then token dilution won't be a problem for us, just as it wasn't when we were making the 3* transition. 

    As far as the new player goes, it should take time to get to 4* land!!! It took me a year and a half, this game is a commitment to build your roster up and people that don't want to put the effort or time in to build up shouldn't be catered to. You can't hit 4* overnight (unless you whale, I guess), you can't even hit 3* overnight. This talk about vaulting helping newer people "catch up" is ridiculous. It only helps them get the new characters faster, it doesn't help them catch up to more  developed rosters because they don't have reasonable access to a large number of the characters. 

    In summary I think a better option to vaulting is mostly in place already with clearance levels just improperly implemented. With the number of 4* characters out now they should be given out the way 3*s are, but only to the people with a developed enough roster by using the clearance levels system already in place. Why is that so hard?!? 
  • Daiches
    Daiches Posts: 1,252 Chairperson of the Boards
    And to think 3star players were able to hit 3000 in pvp..
  • Alsmir
    Alsmir Posts: 508 Critical Contributor
    Starfury said:
    Alsmir said:

    With different CLs available, even my casual play lets me usually hit top100 (granted I play on CL7 instead of 8). So are we talking about those super casual players that make the majority of player base?

    If you don't hit the top100, most likely you won't even get close to max progression in PvE and not hit 575 points in PvP.
    That limits your CP gains to maybe 10 from PvE and some extras from buritos. This will give you maybe 100cp per month? Even with some extra rewards that player will get maybe 7 LTs per month. Without hoarding he will have to rely on a lot of luck from RNG to cover anyone, before they get vaulted.
    If you're hitting top 100 you're not a casual player. (I suppose you're hitting max progression in PvE, which means you play for more than an hour each and every day)
    Can we define casual?

    Yup, I manage to hit op 100 PvE if:
    - it's not a release event
    - it's not a post-release event with new guy as essential
    - if I play it at all

    I skip almost every single 7-day event (sorry, but rl is more important) and a bunch of otehrs based on how busy I'm in rl. Playing on Steam means that I have days when I can't even pull 1hr/day.
    I do try to hit 575 in PvP since it usually is easier.

    Currently with a single 4* champ and no other 4* even close.
  • Ughlah
    Ughlah Posts: 6 Just Dropped In
    Let's say I can get Top10 in CL7 each time and I get one more cover from progression the next event. Furthermore assume a cycle of all 4* takes 6 month. To get my remaining 30 !!! 4* characters from 0-3 covers to champion level I need 3 years. 

    In the same time an old player who has most of them way past level 300, can champ each new character fairly fast and build up some champion levels for the 11 other 4*. This update slows his progression in the high high end 4* range, which in turn slows the 5* progression. I understand the update for those 0,1% of the community. There would be no way for new players to ever catch up, if the top isn't slowed down. 

    The update is complete tinykitty for the majority of players, and hardest for those who start the game now. Well, actually you give the new players the illusion they could catch up, till they are totally screwed when they champ their first 4*.


  • Crowl
    Crowl Posts: 1,581 Chairperson of the Boards
    Fightmastermpq said:
    MarkersMake said:
    Yes. But for 3* players, who would use Peggy to hit above their weight, vaulting has suddenly resulted in a huge jump in the predator to prey ratio. 
    I honestly can't tell if you are arguing with me or agreeing with me here.  Those 3* players can either set Peggy as BH, or champ newer 4* characters and become the predator rather than the prey much faster now.
    Maybe they mean something along the lines of that the mechanics of a lot more of these newer 12 are less impacted by Peggy's yellow than some of the more traditional heavy hitters, so if more people are running such teams then if effectively reduces the impact of the power.
  • NewMcG
    NewMcG Posts: 368 Mover and Shaker
    MarkersMake said:
    Ah you're right. Still, it's 1% for a 4* BH out of a heroic, so maybe 2 or 3  covers out of there. 

    Any way you look at it though, by the time you cover her you'll have pulled 200+ other 4* covers. She'll be irrelevant by then. 
    And if you're pulling from a pool of 50ish 4*s minus the BH factor (which is where we'd be minus vaulting/BH ever being implemented), you'll likely have to pull 500+ covers to finish her, pending a standard amount of luck. I assume those also make her irrelevant. See where this is going?
  • optimus2861
    optimus2861 Posts: 1,233 Chairperson of the Boards
    Fightmastermpq said:
    But in the absence of those other options we have vaulting.  And people being uninterested in hearing why the system might be better for them is EXACTLY the problem I've been facing ever since vaulting was rolled out.  Because those people are raging and trying to kill a system that has merit without even a willingness to fully consider it.
    "If you have to EXPLAIN the joke, THERE IS NO JOKE!" - the Joker.

    If the system is better for players, it needs to be self-evident and should leave the player going, Hey, this is pretty great! It shouldn't leave the players screaming, Why the (expletive of choice) can't I get covers for (favourite character X) anymore?!?! Human nature being what it is, players will focus on the significant and immediate drawback and not any theoretical, possibly-realized-in-the-future positive.

    But then communications has never been Demiurge's strong point. Ham-fistedness is more like it.
  • NewMcG
    NewMcG Posts: 368 Mover and Shaker
    optimus2861 said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    But in the absence of those other options we have vaulting.  And people being uninterested in hearing why the system might be better for them is EXACTLY the problem I've been facing ever since vaulting was rolled out.  Because those people are raging and trying to kill a system that has merit without even a willingness to fully consider it.
    "If you have to EXPLAIN the joke, THERE IS NO JOKE!" - the Joker.

    If the system is better for players, it needs to be self-evident and should leave the player going, Hey, this is pretty great! It shouldn't leave the players screaming, Why the (expletive of choice) can't I get covers for (favourite character X) anymore?!?! Human nature being what it is, players will focus on the significant and immediate drawback and not any theoretical, possibly-realized-in-the-future positive.

    But then communications has never been Demiurge's strong point. Ham-fistedness is more like it.
    Oh, various people have made various, thought out analysis posts about how in the long-term, the Latest 12 approach to tokens makes players viable in a quicker span. It hasn't made a difference to those continuing to rage that they can't pull a token for a 2% chance at their 10th Venom cover anymore.
  • MarkersMake
    MarkersMake Posts: 392 Mover and Shaker
    edited May 2017
    New McG said:
    MarkersMake said:
    Ah you're right. Still, it's 1% for a 4* BH out of a heroic, so maybe 2 or 3  covers out of there. 

    Any way you look at it though, by the time you cover her you'll have pulled 200+ other 4* covers. She'll be irrelevant by then. 
    And if you're pulling from a pool of 50ish 4*s minus the BH factor (which is where we'd be minus vaulting/BH ever being implemented), you'll likely have to pull 500+ covers to finish her, pending a standard amount of luck. I assume those also make her irrelevant. See where this is going?

    You keep responding to me as though I don't think vaulting is a good thing. 

    It's possible to be in favour of something, but also to see that there are flaws with it that need to be addressed. 

    EDIT - For instance: Carol is pretty great, yeah? So are Medusa, Blade, Coulson, Wasp. They work well together. The new hotness. 

    But what happens when they're all out of tokens? 

    Because then, people will have to get the next group of 4*s, and if they aren't significantly better than the gen1 (Rulk/Iceman/jean/etc) and gen2 (Carol/wasp/etc) characters, then those players will have a bunch of 4* champs that don't hold up well to the top tier ones, who will then be vaulted. 

    And if they *are* significantly better? Well, that's just locking in *necessary* power inflation, isn't it? Darned if you do, darned if you don't. 

    There are valid reasons for concern with vaulting, even if you agree that it is an overall positive. 

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