Please nerf Baral

madwren

andrewvanmarle wrote:

For Baral we're talking one card as a counter. And it's a Masterpiece to boot. /quote]

Well, use authority of the consulate, disable, minds dilation, kambal etc just a few cards that severely hurt a baral deck

And yes when you go up against a certain color deck, you take precautions, that is playing smart.

There's no reason to play Mind's Dilation or Kambal against the vast majority of the blue decks out there. So, if you're putting those in everytime you face blue, you aren't playing smart. It's fine to discuss precautions, but they need to be reasonable precautions that a person would take against a typical deck.

babar3355

I am a Baral owner. I hung up my former whales badge and bit the bullet to buy him. And honestly, everything DuskPaladin says is true. The core problem is... he single handedly makes a cycle deck that is abusive for the AI to play.

Harness the Storm, Seasons Past, and Gonti Aether Heart all require substantial set up and back up to abuse. Baral requires nothing but cheap spells. I beat Kozilek with Baral and no other rares or mythics... by turn 4. It took 20 minutes, but I got there!

And unlike the other cycle cards listed, the AI will be able to pilot the deck quite easily. (Although they may occasionally buff my creatures instead of their own.) The problem is not only that the deck is very hard to beat, its that it takes so god forsaken long. I don't want to wait 5-10 minutes to get my next turn against a hard core kiora cycle deck, and I sure as hell don't want to do it against some bronze tier newbies deck who started last week.


I do feel like the dev's are in a pickle though. This card absolutely needs a nerf for the health of the game, and yet they are still selling him. Odds are the nerf is going to make him so I would not have bought him in the first place.

Just shows some real lack of foresight. As if the D3 game testers can't figure out how to build decks to correctly abuse the cards they create.

KragHavok

I think that Baral is just the devs attempt to get us to use Mind Dilation.

buscemi

Actually I'm a bit short on the rent this month, so I could probably use my money back.

What interests me particularly is what'll happen when Rishka's Expertise is released. EVEN IF Baral has been nerfed. Which, let's face it, he probably won't be.

Steeme

Baral doesn't need a nerf. They need to fix the repetitive cycles. "Fix" and "nerf" are being used interchangeably but they're not the same thing.

If you modify him to fill 3 mana per turn for every spell in your hand, then Baral maintains his power level but without the cycling.

DuskPaladin

Steeme wrote:

Baral doesn't need a nerf. They need to fix the repetitive cycles. "Fix" and "nerf" are being used interchangeably but they're not the same thing.

If you modify him to fill 3 mana per turn for every spell in your hand, then Baral maintains his power level but without the cycling.

You're right, what I really mean is that Baral can't stay in his current form. I'm all for Baral being another powerful tool for the players, but not a brick wall for the computer. We need to break the loop, his ability to add 3 mana to every newly drawn spell needs to be changed/fixed.

buscemi

Steeme wrote:

Baral doesn't need a nerf. They need to fix the repetitive cycles. "Fix" and "nerf" are being used interchangeably but they're not the same thing.

If you modify him to fill 3 mana per turn for every spell in your hand, then Baral maintains his power level but without the cycling.

How do you downvote posts?

Steeme

buscemi wrote:

Steeme wrote:

Baral doesn't need a nerf. They need to fix the repetitive cycles. "Fix" and "nerf" are being used interchangeably but they're not the same thing.

If you modify him to fill 3 mana per turn for every spell in your hand, then Baral maintains his power level but without the cycling.

How do you downvote posts?

You get your account banned. It applies a mass downvote to your rating.

I realize that you actually want him nerfed, and you want a refund, but there's no reason to ruin it for everyone else. You will continue to use your Startled Awake combos while those of us waiting for an opportunity to improve on the Blue side get stuck with Baral's corpse.

killwind

I detest responding to these types of threads.

Someone else is unhappy about something again! Its a never ending cycle of whining and complaining about card being broken. Oh and dont forget the list of justifications on why it needs to be nerfed. Its tiresome.

Point is Baral by himself doesnt break the game its a combo.

The combo can easily be broken.


Please see past the initial problem and get to the source of the problem.


Baral by himself is not a big deal. There are plenty of ways to shut it down.

RC, was broken by itself, Baral by himself is not even close!

DuskPaladin

killwind wrote:

I detest responding to these types of threads.

Someone else is unhappy about something again! Its a never ending cycle of whining and complaining about card being broken. Oh and dont forget the list of justifications on why it needs to be nerfed. Its tiresome.

Point is Baral by himself doesnt break the game its a combo.

The combo can easily be broken.


Please see past the initial problem and get to the source of the problem.


Baral by himself is not a big deal. There are plenty of ways to shut it down.

RC, was broken by itself, Baral by himself is not even close!

RC was not broken by itself, you needed a way to give it reach or defender to make it broken. Exactly like Baral. It doesn't make it less broken when it's so easily achieved. You're also welcome to mention actual counterpoint rather than just say "there's plenty of ways to shut it down".

babar3355

How to fix Baral:

Change his text from "When you cast a spell, draw 1 card" to "When you cast a spell, fetch the next card".

The next card won't get mana, the loop is broken.

Now the question is do you feel you deserve a refund if the card is changed in this manner? My answer is probably. He is still powerful, he is still really good. But I probably wouldn't have dropped $30 on him.

buscemi

Steeme wrote:

You get your account banned. It applies a mass downvote to your rating.

I realize that you actually want him nerfed, and you want a refund, but there's no reason to ruin it for everyone else. You will continue to use your Startled Awake combos while those of us waiting for an opportunity to improve on the Blue side get stuck with Baral's corpse.

Startled Awake is also OP and needs nerfing.

This game will be driven into the ground by power creep if the devs aren't careful. I know for a fact that if they rein in the power creep and try and keep the cards balanced instead, then this game could run for at least 24 years... It's been done before.

babar3355

Change his text from "When you cast a spell, draw 1 card" to "When you cast a spell, fetch the next card". The next card won't get mana, the loop is broken.

Now the question is do you feel you deserve a refund if the card is changed in this manner? My answer is probably. He is still powerful, he is still really good. But I probably wouldn't have dropped $30 on him.

(Totally original idea btw... nothing to do with MrStemo.)

bk1234

Has the game really come to this? First there was this thread and now this one. Is the #1 coalition in the universe going to shout "NERF NERF NERF" every time they lose because you can't be bothered to take a step back, regroup and think intelligently about how to overcome changes?

Baral is fine for most players -- in fact he is only OP for players who have very specific spells and a high-level skillset to play him appropriately. He is a great P2P card for low and mid-level players who won't be able to create insane loop decks, but will still get a lot of value out of his abilities. If fact, even as a high level player, I don't have all the cards to make him sing and I find him useful, yet not OP.

Further, last night I joined the very last bracket of QB (the one that started 45 minutes before it ended) and 80% of my battles were against really good blue Baral decks (some from GoblinPile players and a bunch from Extinction) -- I had no problem stopping him and winning quickly and efficiently. Why? Because I don't take the elitist attitude that I'm the best and should just be able to beat anything. I still side-board, I still think about what I might encounter -- and *gasp* sometimes I LOSE. Guess what? That's ok. It's not Baral's fault if I lose -- it's my own because I didn't build for what might be coming.

First everyone complained that the game was getting too easy and there were too many ties, blah, blah, blah -- but when the easy win is taken away and you actually have to go back to being strategic, you complain about this?

There are only 200 top 10 players in this game -- 200 people who regularly get mythics and fat packs and have insane collections because of where their coalitions place. The other 10's of thousands have to make do -- and for them, Baral is balanced exactly the way he should be. It seems that these 200 elite players shout the loudest and get the most results when it comes to changes-- but is preserving your precious easy button really worth screwing the game up for everyone else?? Why not think about the people who don't have your opportunities for a change?? If this is hard for you, I have tons of developing players on my 4 B teams who would really benefit from mentors. Send me a PM.

@JC -- this card is fine. Leave it alone.

Steeme

Completely fair. The cycle must be broken.

Edit: Why would you want a refund unless you intentionally paid to cycle indefinitely?

Edit #2: For reference, since this thread was merged, I was responding to Babar's post where we can break the cycle by making Baral "fetch" a card, and it is a reasonable fix that doesn't warrant a refund unless it was purchased for the sole intent of cycling indefinitely.

bk1234

@Alve or @Brigby

I know you're both very busy, but at some point can you combine all the Baral whining threads into one? It's clogging up the rest of this forum.

DuskPaladin

bken1234 wrote:

Has the game really come to this? First there was this thread and now this one. Is the #1 coalition in the universe going to shout "NERF NERF NERF" every time they lose because you can't be bothered to take a step back, regroup and think intelligently about how to overcome changes?

Baral is fine for most players -- in fact he is only OP for players who have very specific spells and a high-level skillset to play him appropriately. He is a great P2P card for low and mid-level players who won't be able to create insane loop decks, but will still get a lot of value out of his abilities. If fact, even as a high level player, I don't have all the cards to make him sing and I find him useful, yet not OP.

Further, last night I joined the very last bracket of QB (the one that started 45 minutes before it ended) and 80% of my battles were against really good blue Baral decks (some from GoblinPile players and a bunch from Extinction) -- I had no problem stopping him and winning quickly and efficiently. Why? Because I don't take the elitist attitude that I'm the best and should just be able to beat anything. I still side-board, I still think about what I might encounter -- and *gasp* sometimes I LOSE. Guess what? That's ok. It's not Baral's fault if I lose -- it's my own because I didn't build for what might be coming.

First everyone complained that the game was getting too easy and there were too many ties, blah, blah, blah -- but when the easy win is taken away and you actually have to go back to being strategic, you complain about this?

There are only 200 top 10 players in this game -- 200 people who regularly get mythics and fat packs and have insane collections because of where their coalitions place. The other 10's of thousands have to make do -- and for them, Baral is balanced exactly the way he should be. It seems that these 200 elite players shout the loudest and get the most results when it comes to changes-- but is preserving your precious easy button really worth screwing the game up for everyone else?? Why not think about the people who don't have your opportunities for a change?? If this is hard for you, I have tons of developing players on my 4 B teams who would really benefit from mentors. Send me a PM.

@JC -- this card is fine. Leave it alone.

I've clearly stated why it needs to be nerfed. My opinion is my own, in no way have I declared myself the voice of my coalition. You've only given anecdotal evidence about his lack of brokenness.

I've traditionally asked for a boost in power for cards not a nerf, but what I've really done everytime is ask for better card balance with backed with arguments.

You've always proclaimed yourself a top player, yet you've always complained about new NoP's difficulty and always ask for old and easier NoP to be back. You complained about RatC difficulty too, but I've never said anything about it, it's your prerogative, but please don't say that all we do is complain when it's blatantly false.

As I mentioned, you'll see soon enough if Baral is healthy or not for this game. We both love this game, and speaks up when we believe that something needs to be done. I believe this is one such moment.

Alve

bken1234 wrote:

Has the game really come to this? First there was this thread and now this one. Is the #1 coalition in the universe going to shout "NERF NERF NERF" every time they lose because you can't be bothered to take a step back, regroup and think intelligently about how to overcome changes?

Baral is fine for most players -- in fact he is only OP for players who have very specific spells and a high-level skillset to play him appropriately. He is a great P2P card for low and mid-level players who won't be able to create insane loop decks, but will still get a lot of value out of his abilities. If fact, even as a high level player, I don't have all the cards to make him sing and I find him useful, yet not OP.

Further, last night I joined the very last bracket of QB (the one that started 45 minutes before it ended) and 80% of my battles were against really good blue Baral decks (some from GoblinPile players and a bunch from Extinction) -- I had no problem stopping him and winning quickly and efficiently. Why? Because I don't take the elitist attitude that I'm the best and should just be able to beat anything. I still side-board, I still think about what I might encounter -- and *gasp* sometimes I LOSE. Guess what? That's ok. It's not Baral's fault if I lose -- it's my own because I didn't build for what might be coming.

First everyone complained that the game was getting too easy and there were too many ties, blah, blah, blah -- but when the easy win is taken away and you actually have to go back to being strategic, you complain about this?

There are only 200 top 10 players in this game -- 200 people who regularly get mythics and fat packs and have insane collections because of where their coalitions place. The other 10's of thousands have to make do -- and for them, Baral is balanced exactly the way he should be. It seems that these 200 elite players shout the loudest and get the most results when it comes to changes-- but is preserving your precious easy button really worth screwing the game up for everyone else?? Why not think about the people who don't have your opportunities for a change?? If this is hard for you, I have tons of developing players on my 4 B teams who would really benefit from mentors. Send me a PM.

@JC -- this card is fine. Leave it alone.

Merging several 'nerf Baral' threads.

I'd like to remind everyone that everyone has a right to express their opinion on cards, events and everything else. If you disagree with them, please say so, preferably with some arguments.

We all have different views on card balance - many players who suggest a fix/nerf/change to Baral would like to see more cards rebalanced, which means both buffing some underused cards and nerfing ones that in their eyes are too powerful. You can disagree with them, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're trying to sabotage other players, protect their privilege, break the game or make it a slugfest.

@bken: Devaluing other players' opinions because they 'can't think intelligently and regroup', accusing them of trying to screw the game up for everyone else so that some of us can keep their 'precious easy button', calling them elitist, arguing that their suggestions are based solely on their self-interest etc. only decreases the quality of discussion and will obviously aggravate players instead of showing them your point. Please, remember that 'be kind to other players' is actually a forum rule and breaking it has the same result as breaking any other forum rule. We generally discourage anything that might unnecessarily inflame discussions.

@buscemi: quoting a post and asking 'how do you downvote?' is not a good way to have a civilized discussion. Just sayin'.

bk1234

DuskPaladin wrote:

You've always proclaimed yourself a top player, yet you've always complained about new NoP's difficulty and always ask for old and easier NoP to be back. You complained about RatC difficulty too, but I've never said anything about it, it's your prerogative, but please don't say that all we do is complain when it's blatantly false.

I've never asked for Old NOP to return because the new one is difficult -- in fact I do better in New NOP than I did the old one -- I want Old NOP back because it's more fun.

Also RAtC IS difficult, and the original version needed some changes, got them and it's still difficult. I've even commented on this HERE. I'm not complaining about it -- even on my team board, I'm seeking help and getting better.

Finally, if you read my posts that speak of difficulty levels, usually they do not pertain to me, in fact, usually I state that this or that isn't a problem for me -- they pertain to mid and lower levels players who drop from the game like flies because the power creep is too high. The game should be balanced so that everyone is successful -- even as a top level player, I will not stop fighting for that because if mid and lower level players don't stick around, there will be no more game for any of us.

If you'd like to argue with me about my opinions on things, you should actually read them.

PastrySpider

My main concern with Baral is playing against him and turns taking forever. If I was going to nerf Baral (and I'm not saying its a good idea), my first suggestion would be to remove the "When this creature enters the battlefield, all spells gain 3 mana" ability. This doesn't change his core ability (spell looping) or very significant affect how human players will play him but does give people a chance to react on the turn he's played before spell looping begins. The AI rarely charges up 3 mana spells on its own, so Baral will take more time to get going.

If a nerf is still needed, I would switch his mana providing ability to be "At the beginning of your turn, all spells gain 3 mana". This caps him at 6 spells per turn. Still potent.