Please nerf Baral

babar3355

Pretty sure I created a Baral deck that the AI can pilot and murder you in 3-4 turns... Enjoy

BTW, if you nerf him I want my money back

hawkyh1

even chess have a timer on how long a turn can take.
I would vote no time wasters and whatever miracle
baral performs, just make him do it quickly.

HH

Barrelrolla

Steeme wrote:

I was just about to thank them for allowing me to purchase it. Restricting all the goodies for the top of the leaderboards isn't good for anyone.

But I'm curious, why do you want it nerfed?

1. It dies to 5-cost removal
2. It gets disabled just like anything else
3. Startled awake + Deploy combos already exist

Also, do you remember Olivia? Many people cried about P2W, nerf this, nerf that. Nothing happened. And guess what? Nothing needed to happen.

Nothing needed to happen?

Since I drew Olivia I'm playing only red decks. All my NoP have Olivia. I don't bother using anything else. I don't even look at the cards I draw from Kaladesh, unless needed for some objective. I've not changed my deck, other than adding a card or two for objectives since I drew Olivia. The game is **** and broken because of stupid over-powered cards like this.

gruntface

Remember that week when everything ran really quickly and they pulled it back because of complaints it was too fast (the quickest they ever changed the game as a result of feedback)?

That was a great week and would make baral fights far less painful.

gruntface

andrewvanmarle wrote:

A question to the nerf callers:.

Scruffy looking nerf herders perhaps?

Jazzpha

For what it's worth, I haven't been using Baral to put together long-chain OTK decks. I enjoy building highly synergistic midrange decks mostly, so I've been having a blast running Baral, Forgotten Creation and Geralf's Masterpiece. Creation for the discard which buffs Masterpiece, and Baral feeding mana into any spells I draw.

Even playing it in Jace2, who has a max of five spells, I've been having solid success and a lot of fun. If you don't have Masterpiece, you can swap in Soulblade Djinn or something and call it a day.

I'm really looking forward to building for Saheeli, though. Once she's in the Vault, it's going to do a ton to revitalize the game for me from a tinkering perspective.

Basically, the point I'm trying to make here (in a rambling fashion) is that Baral isn't fun solely because of the potential for OTK decks. He allows for a large variety of spell-anchored synergistic decks that are just cool to play, and also stand a chance against the busted garbage running rampant in Platinum right now.

I mean, if the devs want to give Baral the Noyan Dar treatment and jack his mana cost up to the point where he becomes barely playable, I can't stop them. I'd just rather they not do that, and not only because I drop $30 on him.

buscemi

Now there's something you don't see every day.



Half an hour later, this happened...

killwind

I dont see the need to Nerf, Baral I must have seen at least 30-40 differing version of Baral today in QB and not one caused me any issues. Yes, I own Baral, and yes I have found many many ways to abuse him, but hes no worse than Drowner or Olivia. He dies to just like everything else does.

andrewvanmarle

killwind wrote:

I dont see the need to Nerf, Baral I must have seen at least 30-40 differing version of Baral today in QB and not one caused me any issues. Yes, I own Baral, and yes I have found many many ways to abuse him, but hes no worse than Drowner or Olivia. He dies to just like everything else does.

This....

THEMAGICkMAN

andrewvanmarle wrote:

killwind wrote:

I dont see the need to Nerf, Baral I must have seen at least 30-40 differing version of Baral today in QB and not one caused me any issues. Yes, I own Baral, and yes I have found many many ways to abuse him, but hes no worse than Drowner or Olivia. He dies to just like everything else does.

This....

"Dies to removal" is one of the worst arguments in magic and it always will be. Almost every creatures "dies to removal" (or blockers for that matter) baral is OP I think. Because he creates a combo that allows you to win on turn 1 somewhat consistently. He doesn't need a significant nerf, but his combo potential should be limited. A suitable nerf IMO is this:

Doesn't give mana on ETB. Gives 2 mana to spells when they're drawn.

3 is just too high and the ETB ability is unnecessary for him. With those changes he's still very strong as a "value" card, and you still get TONS of value out of him in an average deck. Combo decks that can win on turn 1 easily should NOT be a thing. I had experienced the ai beating me on turn 1 with a combo (3.3 GAH combo for those of you curious) and this should not be possible. I'm not saying that combos shouldn't be a thing, but turn 1 combos you can pull off somewhat consistently shouldn't be a thing.


Somewhat consistently meaning that your hand doesn't have to be perfect and a small to no cascade is required. For example the rashmi loop combo is not turn 1 somewhat consistent as it requires a near-perfect hand, a lot of luck and a very good cascade, generally speaking. Just clarifying what I mean by that term ^^

blacklotus

Spiritdark wrote:

Baral is BROKEN....

I just purchased him.

Kiora Planeswalker, level 23

Deck:
Creatures:
Baral, Chief Of Compliance
Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper

Supports:
Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
Fertile Thicket

Spells:
Seek The Wilds
Negate
Natural Connection
Reclaim
Stratus Walk
Artificer's Epiphany

All spells are 3 mana cost except 'Seek The Wilds' at 4. Stratus Walk and Artificer's Epiphany award double, or triple, card draw if you have a support out with Baral. Fertile Thicket and Natural Connection both stimulate green gem matches for extra mana to summon supports and creatures in the middle of a spell chain. Reclaim on Baral, only when you have an extra copy in hand to add to the mana generation.

Once Baral is out it's not hard to get Noyan Dar out fast and once you do it's spell chain for the win. I just had a game where by turn 5 I had Noyan Dar swing in for 96 damage for the win.

One could argue tossing in Talent Of The Telepath but I was trying to keep all spells at 3 mana or under.

Once Kiora is max level and you can use her 2 tier power to summon and almost autocast Noyan Dar... plus remove Shrine of The Forsaken Gods and include an extra spell... this deck would get ridiculous. More so than it is now.

Uhydra is cheaper and works better than Noyan. I tried.

all these isn't new btw. Formerly it was SP/uhydra. Then SP got nerfed and u need to add Rashmi to make the daisy chain work. Baral only makes it easier to pull off the daisy chain.

blacklotus

unlike gah, the ai isn't quite smart enough to navigate thru a deck filled with 3mana cards with the idea that buffing the key critter is the key to winning the game for it.

when i met a ai run saheeli with both baral and zada on the board, it decided buffing its own baral and my critters is the best way to beat me...sad to say, i won easily.

i would say the call to nerf baral because humans can play well with him in the deck is overly premature.

Steeme

blacklotus wrote:

unlike gah, the ai isn't quite smart enough to navigate thru a deck filled with 3mana cards with the idea that buffing the key critter is the key to winning the game for it.

when i met a ai run saheeli with both baral and zada on the board, it decided buffing its own baral and my critters is the best way to beat me...sad to say, i won easily.

i would say the call to nerf baral because humans can play well with him in the deck is overly premature.

Exactly. The fact that nerfs were called before even experiencing the AI piloting a cyclic deck is basically jumping the gun. The devs even stated that they have plans to balance cards but they need to gather metrics to see how they perform first before making changes.

buscemi

What I find interesting about this thread is that everyone who bought Baral is defending his power level by saying that the AI doesn't play him too well, and so people can beat him.

No-one's really mentioned the fact that they'll experience a significant boost in events by playing with their paid for power.

I mean guys, come on! I expect a certain level of self interest, but not at the expense of the game itself!

madwren

buscemi wrote:

What I find interesting about this thread is that everyone who bought Baral is defending his power level by saying that the AI doesn't play him too well, and so people can beat him.

No-one's really mentioned the fact that they'll experience a significant boost in events by playing with their paid for power.

I mean guys, come on! I expect a certain level of self interest, but not at the expense of the game itself!

People like their overpowered toys.

That being said, there's an interesting argument here. For example, Deploy is overpowered, but since the AI doesn't normally prioritize it, we typically don't feel the effects of it in events. At what point is the AI's ability to play a card relevant to whether a card is too powerful and in need of nerfing? Should that be the primary concern?

THEMAGICkMAN

The problem with baral has nothing at all to do with the ai.


Is a card that can win on turn 1 somewhat consistently overpowered?


Yes.
Wizards of the coast has a rule in place for one of it's formats, and that is that a combo deck that can win before turn 4 (I think it's 4, correct me if I'm wrong) and I'd warping the format GETS BANNED. Baral in the hands of the player can win on turn 1 relatively easily. That is what's OP, not the ai's use of him, the players use of him.

buscemi

madwren wrote:

buscemi wrote:

What I find interesting about this thread is that everyone who bought Baral is defending his power level by saying that the AI doesn't play him too well, and so people can beat him.

No-one's really mentioned the fact that they'll experience a significant boost in events by playing with their paid for power.

I mean guys, come on! I expect a certain level of self interest, but not at the expense of the game itself!

People like their overpowered toys.

That being said, there's an interesting argument here. For example, Deploy is overpowered, but since the AI doesn't normally prioritize it, we typically don't feel the effects of it in events. At what point is the AI's ability to play a card relevant to whether a card is too powerful and in need of nerfing? Should that be the primary concern?

Well, clearly that's why they've Nerfed Gonti's Aether Heart, isn't it?

I don't even know why they nerfed Electrostatic Pumeller. Did people actually get beaten by that thing? Or is it just because there were some screenshots around with it having too much power?

madwren

buscemi wrote:

madwren wrote:

buscemi wrote:

What I find interesting about this thread is that everyone who bought Baral is defending his power level by saying that the AI doesn't play him too well, and so people can beat him.

No-one's really mentioned the fact that they'll experience a significant boost in events by playing with their paid for power.

I mean guys, come on! I expect a certain level of self interest, but not at the expense of the game itself!

People like their overpowered toys.

That being said, there's an interesting argument here. For example, Deploy is overpowered, but since the AI doesn't normally prioritize it, we typically don't feel the effects of it in events. At what point is the AI's ability to play a card relevant to whether a card is too powerful and in need of nerfing? Should that be the primary concern?

Well, clearly that's why they've Nerfed Gonti's Aether Heart, isn't it?

I don't even know why they nerfed Electrostatic Pumeller. Did people actually get beaten by that thing? Or is it just because there were some screenshots around with it having too much power?

I was wondering the latter myself. It was certainly something that sort of came out of nowhere. Of course it happened right after I finally got Pummeler.

I'd argue that any card that has the potential of making people sit down and watch 20-minute loops that they can't interrupt is a negative to the game experience. It's not good to remove player agency or force them to set their phone down and do something else until the game finishes playing solitaire. Gonti's Heart certainly meets that criteria.

buscemi

THEMAGICkMAN wrote:

The problem with baral has nothing at all to do with the ai.

Is a card that can win on turn 1 somewhat consistently overpowered?

Yes.
Wizards of the coast has a rule in place for one of it's formats, and that is that a combo deck that can win before turn 4 (I think it's 4, correct me if I'm wrong) and I'd warping the format GETS BANNED. Baral in the hands of the player can win on turn 1 relatively easily. That is what's OP, not the ai's use of him, the players use of him.

Hold on now! It's certainly disturbing that I've never managed a turn 1 win before and now suddenly I've managed it the day after I bought Baral, but let's not kid ourselves that this is a deck that can kill on turn 1 consistently, or even somewhat consistently.

It's a deck that can win on turn 3 somewhat consistently, whilst still managing to play highly defensive spells like Scatter to the Winds and Imprisoned in the Moon. This is no glass cannon. That's bad enough, isn't it?

madwren wrote:

I'd argue that any card that has the potential of making people sit down and watch 20-minute loops that they can't interrupt is a negative to the game experience. It's not good to remove player agency or force them to set their phone down and do something else until the game finishes playing solitaire. Gonti's Heart certainly meets that criteria.

Yeah, but Electrostatic Pumeller didn't create any loops, did it? Once you set up a decent loop with a card like Gonti's or Waterveil or Baral, you can finish the game off with literally anything. Nerfing Electrostatic Pumeller just seems like the kind of thing a person with no understanding of the game's dynamics would do. Or maybe a person who did understand that the game was broken, but wanted to disguise that fact from people, so they'd keep buying cards.

Diabeetus

Glad I read this thread. Here I was thinking he was ****.

He would actually make a decent combo with Ulvenwald Hydra in a Kiora deck.