Please nerf Baral

morgue427

having him in bann is far from an instant win, just tried him on planar bridge in the event got him down to 250 but he got me eventually just cant count on drawing that one card to set up a win and evene if you do need at least another round to get him to attack and no healing or kill spells makes him easy to get card locked if you dont first round draw him. put a kill spell like imprision and it helps lock up your deck faster with cards you cant play or your attention wanders and you end up imprisioning your own key card lol. give it a week and see how everyone feels when the event ends and he had a hard time competitng agaisnt gonti's and the tez boss

madwren

morgue427 wrote:

having him in bann is far from an instant win, just tried him on planar bridge in the event got him down to 250 but he got me eventually just cant count on drawing that one card to set up a win and evene if you do need at least another round to get him to attack and no healing or kill spells makes him easy to get card locked if you dont first round draw him. put a kill spell like imprision and it helps lock up your deck faster with cards you cant play or your attention wanders and you end up imprisioning your own key card lol. give it a week and see how everyone feels when the event ends and he had a hard time competitng agaisnt gonti's and the tez boss

A card's power level in a specific node on a PVE event doesn't really address that card's power level concerns, though.

buscemi

morgue427 wrote:

put a kill spell like imprision and it helps lock up your deck faster with cards you cant play

Targetting tokens is good. Try Island tokens, or Thopter tokens, or Scion tokens, or Human Wizard tokens. Or, y'know, Moon tokens. They come back again.

morgue427 wrote:

or your attention wanders

That one I can't help you with.

MTG_Mage

I called it right when AER came out and you can view all the cards. The first time I saw Baral I said `that card is going to break the game`
I can easily get first turn kills with Baral (the turn does take a long time).
Near infinite spell loops are easy to set up with a deck with all 3 cost or less spells, Baral and one or two other cards (such as zada, noyan, or Aetherflux Reservoir).

Instead of nerfing a paid for card, or complaining about it, I propose this:

Solution: limit deck size to 60 cards with 6x of each card (or just 2 to 3 blocks of 40 cards with 4x of each card if it is easier for the programmers)

This is discussed more in this thread viewtopic.php?f=31&t=57979
This will change the game permanently, but will cap combos going off indefinitely which may solve a bunch of problems, such as Baral comboing out for 15+ minute turns.
After the 60th card is drawn the match goes to the victory/defeat screen.

AngelForge

MTG_Mage wrote:

I called it right when AER came out and you can view all the cards. The first time I saw Baral I said `that card is going to break the game`
I can easily get first turn kills with Baral (the turn does take a long time).
Near infinite spell loops are easy to set up with a deck with all 3 cost or less spells, Baral and one or two other cards (such as zada, noyan, or Aetherflux Reservoir).

Instead of nerfing a paid for card, or complaining about it, I propose this:

Solution: limit deck size to 60 cards with 6x of each card (or just 2 to 3 blocks of 40 cards with 4x of each card if it is easier for the programmers)

This is discussed more in this thread viewtopic.php?f=31&t=57979
This will change the game permanently, but will cap combos going off indefinitely which may solve a bunch of problems, such as Baral comboing out for 15+ minute turns.
After the 60th card is drawn the match goes to the victory/defeat screen.

So, you suggest that the game is lost once you can't draw a card anymore, like in paper Magic?

andrewvanmarle

Anyone who suggests that you can consistently play turn one kills better prove it (youtube) cuz I'm calling shenannigans here. Even if you play baral on turn 1,you wont have achieved anything without a kill-condition like mettalurgic summoning etc.
And those cards will clog up you hand when baral starts playing spells.

There is actually only one card that needs looking at in this meta and that is imprisoned in the moon. That should be 4 mana. That way the player doesn't get a free board wipe.

A one turn kill is easy to set up with other combos (one turn, not turn one) too.


So prove it, when you talking about a first turn kill or just be quiet....

buscemi

andrewvanmarle wrote:

Anyone who suggests that you can consistently play turn one kills better prove it (youtube)
...
So prove it, when you talking about a first turn kill or just be quiet....

This I'm completely on board with. I don't claim to be the best deckbuilder in the world, but I've been testing Baral a fair bit over the last couple days and I've only managed a turn 1 kill once.

andrewvanmarle wrote:

Even if you play baral on turn 1,you wont have achieved anything without a kill-condition like mettalurgic summoning etc.

You are joking here, tho, right? Playing Baral turn 1 is not a given, as you'll need a cascade for 8 mana, as well as drawing him on your first 3 cards, but if you achieve that he can easily generate value far in advance of anything that we've seen a deck produce on turn 1 before... Not Forgotten and Strength of Arms create creatures, Haunted Cloak will let them (and him) attack, and Ghostly Wings or Shard of Broken Glass will permanently pump them up. Devour in Flames will immediately start shooting your opponent (with Scatter to the Winds handily taking away any mana he might gain from it). Pump spells like Built to Smash or Ethereal Guidance will immediately deal damage if you've played a Cloak, or, just be cycled away for no loss otherwise.

And the loop doesn't necessarily stop whenever a the first non-spell card is drawn, because Stratus Walk, Artificer's Epiphany, and Coastal Discovery will all draw multiple cards with Baral in play.

andrewvanmarle wrote:

And those cards will clog up you hand when baral starts playing spells.

This, honestly, is the most egregious misrepresentation of what a Baral deck can do. When you say that these cards 'clog up your hand', what you mean is this: that at the end any turn when the Baral player has started to combo, they have, in their hand, both Baral, AND a primary win condition, possibly in multiple copies, ready to commence comboing again on the next turn, regardless of what their opponent has managed to disrupt.

andrewvanmarle wrote:

A one turn kill is easy to set up with other combos (one turn, not turn one) too.

Not by turn 3.

morgue427

i havent managed a one turn kill yet, in the evenets it can be powerful but it still is a boring a deck as hell other than the events i dont see using it for anything. a win isnt worth the mindless turn just to pump my creatures up for one hit only to have to do it again next round because i missed it buy a few points.
powerful yes god yes but limited in a 3 mana spell deck.
boring as **** yes
one trick pony god yes
not going to be played by me much honestly not as this in another hdeck wthat is more rounded to handle other threats perhaps.

Steeme

Well, just confirmed it boys and girls, the AI can and will pilot a Baral deck into ridiculousness. AI was piloting a Kiora deck with the usual cheap spells and Baral + Docent on board and was able to cycle through for about 2 minutes despite only having a single slot open for spell draw. Natural connection in the loop was able to allow non-spells to be cast in the cycle.

It would have been manageable except for the fact that having Moon and Scatter in the loop effectively board wipes and denies the opponent.

Mana gain needs to be reduce to 2 which I think is fair, still maintains enough power while eliminating seemingly endless cycles. Another possible modification is to only fill mana when drawing a card, and when you cast a spell it "fetches" another card, thereby cutting the cycle off before it begins.

buscemi

Steeme wrote:

Mana gain needs to be reduce to 2 which I think is fair, still maintains enough power while eliminating seemingly endless cycles. Another possible modification is to only fill mana when drawing a card, and when you cast a spell it "fetches" another card, thereby cutting the cycle off before it begins.

Whoah, there! Olivia didn't need nerfing! It dies to removal, remember?

Yes, Baral is broken, but that's simply the game we're playing at the moment.

If they touch one hair on his head, I want a refund. I understand that it's probably a little difficult to tell what I'm being snarky about in this thread, but I'll be deadly serious about wanting my money back.

Steeme

buscemi wrote:

Steeme wrote:

Mana gain needs to be reduce to 2 which I think is fair, still maintains enough power while eliminating seemingly endless cycles. Another possible modification is to only fill mana when drawing a card, and when you cast a spell it "fetches" another card, thereby cutting the cycle off before it begins.

Whoah, there! Olivia didn't need nerfing! It dies to removal, remember?

Yes, Baral is broken, but that's simply the game we're playing at the moment.

If they touch one hair on his head, I want a refund. I understand that it's probably a little difficult to tell what I'm being snarky about in this thread, but I'll be deadly serious about wanting my money back.

Olivia doesn't need nerfing because she doesn't cycle endlessly. Baral also wouldn't need a nerf if he didn't cycle endlessly, but unfortunately he does. I suppose I'm not as conniving in my deckbuilding as other players have proven.

You can have a refund if you like. Fixing Baral to not provide an endless cycle is more of a bug fix than a nerf.

madwren

morgue427 wrote:

i havent managed a one turn kill yet, in the evenets it can be powerful but it still is a boring a deck as hell other than the events i dont see using it for anything. a win isnt worth the mindless turn just to pump my creatures up for one hit only to have to do it again next round because i missed it buy a few points.
powerful yes god yes but limited in a 3 mana spell deck.
boring as tinykitty yes
one trick pony god yes
not going to be played by me much honestly not as this in another hdeck wthat is more rounded to handle other threats perhaps.

With all due respect, your seeing it as "boring" and "mindless" and "one trick" has absolutely zero to do with the card's power level. A person's opinion about the "fun level", for lack of a better phrase, is unrelated to the objective strength of an individual card.

Alve

He doesn't cycle endlessly, the way GAH could, he simply can produce very long loops sometimes. This game could use a solid card rebalancing effort, but I don't see how Baral breaks it more than a bunch of other cards. 5-mana/3-mana removal, among other things, while seemingly innocent, completely altered the meta (and all other levels of gameplay). It shouldn't have been designed that way. In paper these cards are quite expensive or less efficient than in PQ.

I bought Baral, he was fun to play around with (quite boring long-term), I'll enjoy using him occasionally. Refusing to admit that he's quite OP is a bit weird to me - compare him to some other mythics and explain to me how he gives me the same value as Aethertide Whale, or Torrential Gearhulk, or Padeem. Then again, it's not the only broken card that we have right now or will get in the future. Just compare Mechanized Production to Evolutionary Leap, a card that technically does the same thing, only less of it, is more difficult to trigger and costs more mana.

We have a serious problem with card balance - some cards never see any play, while others basically play your deck for you. It's not healthy for the game and even more importantly, it's not fun in the long run. I really hope that we'll see a solid card rebalance in the future, not just a nerf to a few problematic ones.

Leaffe

Having played with Baral a bit now, I am finding that using him in conjunction with another deck strategy is a bunch more stable. Just relying on him + WC + mana spells really has too much variability to be viable. Adding another facet to the deck that can really help him out.

I'd rather win 90% of the time in 4-7 turns than 30% of the time in 1-2 turns.

wereotter

Some added thoughts on Baral. I'll start by admitting he's crazy powerful. His ability to chain spells makes him a force to be reckoned with. However, having tried him in a couple of decks, he needs very specific, mostly also mythic rare, cards in order to really go crazy and only seems in my playing so far to do so with Saheeli. Possibly he does in Kiora too, I haven't tried the reclaim strategy for mana.

Having compared him in Dovin and Saheeli I feel running Harness the Storm alongside Baral is what breaks him as the cascades caused by that mythic allow you to build up the mana to cycle other copies of him and other supports out of your hand mid-combo. Which really limits his build potential to Saheeli. Compare that to other highly powerful mythics, Olivia seems to be a favorite target, and you'll see that he's possibly more powerful, but, and this is important, much less flexible.

Olivia can go into any red or black deck, which immediately means she can work with more decks than Baral. Also she compliments literally any creature. Baral to go crazy is limited to cheap spells that don't do much until he's chain casting them, and requires you build the entire deck around him, something not many other mythics require. As such, you're basically sitting dead in the water until he combos off and you win. Putting any other mythic into a deck doesn't leave you nearly so open.

So ultimately Baral may be a symptom of the rising power level in the game and likely a sign that all the cards need to be looked at for rebalancing, but he alone isn't the problem. I've said before, but it bears repeating, they ought to simply follow the paper counterparts more closely, and we won't run into situations like this.

morgue427

no fun has nothing to do with power level i know but if you can win but got to take a month of sundays to do it, along with having the stars align to get the chance to have that win in the first place most people will look for an easier solution, i know i will even if i have t,o um actually play a deck that works under a lot more conditions. perhaps people want the win no matter what, and this can possibly give that to them if you draw him before it is to late, blue/white doesnt have a lot of 3 mana cards that will do anything permanent yes some humans and some sprits and one turn buffs but to get them you have to give up healing and any defense really and count on random chance on not drawing the 2 non spell cards you have in your deck, i have had my turn last 30 plus spells and i have had it **** out after 15, red/blue may be a bit better but still no major cards for 3. demolish always nice but it fizzles if they dont have supports on the board, first strike and a few other higher but still one turn buffs and wont even get extra permanent creatures.

my vote is powerful yes game breaking ehh not so sure how many will run it in events is the big question quick battles is a no go really. You wont ever be able to run it to win really just takes to long. nerf it down to 2 mana gain i could live with that honestly think he would do better as a support creature helping you get better spells out in a more balanced deck. rant all you want they will do what they will do and nothing i say will change that. he is powerful and if i see him come out i will work to take him out first thing otherwise game on as always.

MTG_Mage

AngelForge wrote:

MTG_Mage wrote:

I called it right when AER came out and you can view all the cards. The first time I saw Baral I said `that card is going to break the game`
I can easily get first turn kills with Baral (the turn does take a long time).
Near infinite spell loops are easy to set up with a deck with all 3 cost or less spells, Baral and one or two other cards (such as zada, noyan, or Aetherflux Reservoir).

Instead of nerfing a paid for card, or complaining about it, I propose this:

Solution: limit deck size to 60 cards with 6x of each card (or just 2 to 3 blocks of 40 cards with 4x of each card if it is easier for the programmers)

This is discussed more in this thread viewtopic.php?f=31&t=57979
This will change the game permanently, but will cap combos going off indefinitely which may solve a bunch of problems, such as Baral comboing out for 15+ minute turns.
After the 60th card is drawn the match goes to the victory/defeat screen.

So, you suggest that the game is lost once you can't draw a card anymore, like in paper Magic?

Yes I am suggesting that when a player attempts to draw once they have no cards left in the deck then that player loses. Fetch cards would cast and do nothing if they have no target to grab from the deck as well.

Aside from this, the only solution I see that would end these loops that Baral can do is to increase the cost of the vast majority of cards that are 3 or less to 4.

I think creating a deck size limit and alternate win condition (draw out the opponent) can lead to some interesting options (such as mill decks), as well as solving this problem (and likely fix a lot more problems with other cards). It would also put an upper limit to game times since the amount of turns would be capped at deck size.

Mainloop25

I bought Baral today, and boy is he powerful. He is easy to exploit with weenie buff spells and haunted cloak(and any creature/support that buffs/triggers upon support casting). He is far superior to Rashmi imo because he is way cheaper to cast, and drawing spells is more useful than fetching. The "game-breaking" combo is boring as all hell to sit through however, and will be mind-numbing to fight against. The real push to nerfing will be once all the complaints from fighting troll decks start pouring in.

My actual long-term usage will likely be for special situations such as no-support objectives like RatC 2.1, EO white node. But I also like fitting him into other decks with powerful mythics to help me grab needed cards.

Astralwind

I have lost to Olivia but never Baral. I think if Baral is nerfed, the same should apply to Olivia.

Steeme

Astralwind wrote:

I have lost to Olivia but never Baral. I think if Baral is nerfed, the same should apply to Olivia.

It's not about what you win or lose against, it's whether or not the AI will get into some loop that, programmatically, can last "forever" (not to be taken literally). They had to fix Season's Past for that reason, they fixed the Aether Heart for the same reason. Baral is frighteningly close, depending on the perfect deck list with Saheeli. This is what needs to be stopped in the short term.

Long term card balance changes? Sure, I agree there are a subset of cards in this game that are undeniably stronger than the rest of the cards. But I honestly get tired of hearing about Olivia this, Olivia that because she is just a single card.

Don't you remember what happened to Kiora? People whined about this, whined about that, la, la, la until the Devs took the axe to her and brutally slaughtered her into complete uselessness. This of course caused an uproar (and rightly so) which forced the Devs to revert all changes except to her first ability.

What kind of gruesome death are you calling for Olivia? You realize that once you strip her powers, she'll just become shelved, right? I mean, suppose you apply her powers to other vampires only.. well, you will only see her in SOI events. Once she's buried, then what? Shift focus to the next card that beats you?