*** Daken (Classic) ***

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  • NemekNemek Posts: 1,511
    The thing I have a hard time believing about the "I stored up HP from tourneys" line is that don't you guys buy shields to make sure you reach the top rewards?

    Even if you double shield, you'll net 100 HP per event, for top 100 alliance, 250 for top 2. For top 100, that's 300 HP per week. For long PvEs like Hunt/Hulk, you can gain around 100HP per day if you top 5 or 10 every sub.

    Even with buying a roster slot every two weeks, my HP stockpile increases most every time. As roster slots increase, though, that probably won't always be true.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    prymet1me wrote:
    I'm not surprised. Imo, Daken is one of the most economical characters to be put in the game since pre-nerf Rags.

    Just imagine the rage if he gets nerfed.

    You mean when he gets nerfed

    No they pre-nerfed him before release. I mean, his black is fine obviously, creating 2 strike tiles at 57 each isn't horrendous either, yes those can get out of control, but they are scaled back to what 2* Daken was in his prime. as for blue. yeah, it can hit hard, 5 blue for up to 2.3K dmg is a good return but in turn you remove strike tiles which is gonna cost you damage overtime, and depending on who you play him with that could be bad
  • Phaserhawk wrote:
    I agree with everything you say, but....is removing strike tiles for max blue damage going to help or harm you? That is the question you have to ask with Daken everytime. If you pair him with Falcon, yeah, it may not be in your best interest for 5/3/5, but pair him with say Lazy Thor and Hood, then yes at that point I think you want 5/3/5, so it really depends on how you want to use him.

    I look at it as, in the game's current state, "2.3k now or Daken might be dead next turn due to Magneto + Patch chaining abilities off forever". The best defense right now is to get abilities off ASAP, which is why OBW and Psylocke are such damn good defenders. Daken is going to get added to that little pool of irritation. Obviously this will change up a bit once Magneto's blue gets ripped up, but it took them 4 months to fix Spiderman, so at this rate we've about a year before Magneto gets tweaked (this is sarcasm but oh my god it better not take that long).
  • I'm not convinced Daken is a 'spend all your money on him' character like Thor. Phermone Rage is incredibly strong, but it also hedges your team's strength on green even more and green is already the strongest offensive color, which means if the board is lacking in green you'd have a serious drought. To be fair as long as desert is an environment in PvP you don't have to worry about a lack of green, but I think they should revamp the environments at some point too (Desert is way too good in general and favors one color way too much). Sure, the level 200+ Dakens are powerful, but doesn't seem out of line compared to say a level 200+ Patch. Of course, I don't have a Daken leveled while I do have Patch maxed, so those fights are way tougher for me, but I imagine trying to fight Patch at level 200+ without one must be pretty rough too.
  • Even without Falcon you obviously lose out in long term damage with his blue, and with Falcon it's even worse.

    But as pointed out, on defense your opponent might not start with 100% and getting a 2K hit very early can knock out a guy. On offense, you can simply not use his blue if you got some upgraded strike tiles already and save it for later.

    Also he basiclaly ends up adding 4 green tiles for 10 blue, and that's not a terrible ratio for adding new tiles. Save up to 10 blue and you can usually get a decent green cascade on top of the damage it does.
  • It's not that he's better than Thor, rather he makes more economical sense as an upgrade.

    Rags existed in a time dominated by Thor+c.Storm, Wolvie and Spidey. Thor+Rags, c.Storm+Rags, Wolvie+Rags, Spidey+Rags; all are great choices.

    Gold Thor existed in a time dominated by Thor, Ares, OBW, c.Mags, Punisher, Spidey, Patch. OBW+Thor and c.Mags+Thor imo are the only real economical upgrades here imo and Spidey is okay too.

    Thor is the best in the game, but if you're already running Patch+c.Mags or Punisher+Spidey, it's not really a high priority.

    Gold Daken on the other hand fits all those characters and a bunch of others (Hulk, gsbw, HT, etc), not to mention makes a suitable replacement for post-nerf Spidey (and eventually post-nerf Mags). Daken also fits gold Thor really well too.

    Basically, no matter what your roster currently looks like, Daken will be a good investment imo.
  • prymet1me wrote:
    I'm not surprised. Imo, Daken is one of the most economical characters to be put in the game since pre-nerf Rags.

    Just imagine the rage if he gets nerfed.

    You mean when he gets nerfed

    Judging by the time it took to nerf Rags, Spidey and soon CMags, you'll still get to abuse Lazy Daken for the next five months.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    Yeah and I concur with all those statements. After my number crunching though, I see 5/4/4 as sub optimal. Because you may as well go full out dmg with blue and damn your health because you are gonna lose 4 strike tiles anyways, might as well get the most for them, and if you are going 5/4/4 for health then stay 5/5/3 since you don't lose out that much. That being said, remember, it's only 666 damage from lvl 3 blue to lvl 5 blue. But i agree, popping someone for 2.3k health is a good deal for 5 blue.
  • Phantron wrote:
    I'm not convinced Daken is a 'spend all your money on him' character like Thor. Phermone Rage is incredibly strong, but it also hedges your team's strength on green even more and green is already the strongest offensive color, which means if the board is lacking in green you'd have a serious drought. To be fair as long as desert is an environment in PvP you don't have to worry about a lack of green, but I think they should revamp the environments at some point too (Desert is way too good in general and favors one color way too much). Sure, the level 200+ Dakens are powerful, but doesn't seem out of line compared to say a level 200+ Patch. Of course, I don't have a Daken leveled while I do have Patch maxed, so those fights are way tougher for me, but I imagine trying to fight Patch at level 200+ without one must be pretty rough too.


    Side note: why isn't oasis blue?
  • It's not that he's better than Thor, rather he makes more economical sense as an upgrade.

    Rags existed in a time dominated by Thor+c.Storm, Wolvie and Spidey. Thor+Rags, c.Storm+Rags, Wolvie+Rags, Spidey+Rags; all are great choices.

    Gold Thor existed in a time dominated by Thor, Ares, OBW, c.Mags, Punisher, Spidey, Patch. OBW+Thor and c.Mags+Thor imo are the only real economical upgrades here imo and Spidey is okay too.

    Thor is the best in the game, but if you're already running Patch+c.Mags or Punisher+Spidey, it's not really a high priority.

    Gold Daken on the other hand fits all those characters and a bunch of others (Hulk, gsbw, HT, etc), not to mention makes a suitable replacement for post-nerf Spidey (and eventually post-nerf Mags). Daken also fits gold Thor really well too.

    Basically, no matter what your roster currently looks like, Daken will be a good investment imo.

    I don't think dakan is very good with nick fury when he drops necessarily. Then again. The idea that dakan is mostly passive could be a HUGE help when.it comes.to.the AI actually properly using fury's yellow. On general, o am worried about how viable fury's yellow will be, as I can't imagine the machine thinking "hey, we have 15 yellow 4 red 4 green and 5 blue (assuming later upgrades work the same.as the im one)..let's wait a turn so this move doesn't just drop some protect tiles.
  • Side note: why isn't oasis blue?

    You just blew my mind icon_e_surprised.gif
  • Hunter328Hunter328 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 40 Just Dropped In
    The fact that people already have maxed 3* Dakens shows how skewed this game is toward pay to win. Anyone not ready to drop a ton of money is at a huge disadvantage. Good luck trying to build a decent team just off winning tokens that have a minuscule chance of getting you anything worthwhile. Trying to field a competitive team that way against people with quick access to new characters is virtually impossible. And it keeps getting worse. At least if you had Spidey you could occasionally deal with characters who could hit your team for 3000+ in a turn, but they've fixed that loophole.
    It's sad because it's a fun game, but they've stacked the deck so far against a lot of us that it's feeling more and more like a waste of time.
  • Hunter328 wrote:
    The fact that people already have maxed 3* Dakens shows how skewed this game is toward pay to win. Anyone not ready to drop a ton of money is at a huge disadvantage. Good luck trying to build a decent team just off winning tokens that have a minuscule chance of getting you anything worthwhile. Trying to field a competitive team that way against people with quick access to new characters is virtually impossible. And it keeps getting worse. At least if you had Spidey you could occasionally deal with characters who could hit your team for 3000+ in a turn, but they've fixed that loophole.
    It's sad because it's a fun game, but they've stacked the deck so far against a lot of us that it's feeling more and more like a waste of time.

    It's no more P2W than Thor, who can destroy a character with 5800 health in one turn. Granted, I'm sure people spend a ton of money on Thor too, but he's no harder to deal with defensively than Patch. He's a bigger threat in the beginning since he doesn't need AP, but on the other hand he can't pull off 3K+ rounds with Berserker Rage or instant kills with The Best There Is as the fight drags on.
  • got my first two Daken 3*, both grey/black.

    Wonder if the best build to use is 5/3/5 or 5/5/3? Probably wont work on him much until i get a few max 2* but i got him from the current Sentry event
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Pamizard wrote:
    got my first two Daken 3*, both grey/black.

    Wonder if the best build to use is 5/3/5 or 5/5/3? Probably wont work on him much until i get a few max 2* but i got him from the current Sentry event

    I think 5/4/4 is the best balanced build: getting 5->7% on the heal can matter a good amount to making him sustainable, and 4->5 blue for a single tile reduction is probably not worth the point.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    Pamizard wrote:
    got my first two Daken 3*, both grey/black.

    Wonder if the best build to use is 5/3/5 or 5/5/3? Probably wont work on him much until i get a few max 2* but i got him from the current Sentry event

    I think 5/4/4 is the best balanced build: getting 5->7% on the heal can matter a good amount to making him sustainable, and 4->5 blue for a single tile reduction is probably not worth the point.

    of the three best builds 5/5/3, 5/4/4, and 5/3/5. 5/4/4 is the worst. see my earlier post. You get all the negatives of blue but none of the positives. The postivies of lvl 3 blue is you keep an extra strike tile, the positive of lvl 5 blue is the extra dmg. The difference between 5/5/3 and 5/4/4 is 358 on blue initial dmg, but within 4-5 turns you have evened out as that extra strike tile lost does affect future tile match dmg. And the only positive of 5/4/4 over 5/3/5 is the extra 2% heal at the cost of 305 dmg. In other words, you are trading 116 extra health per turn assuming enough blue, for 305 dmg. If you are matching blue, you won't have blue, thus that 2% isnt going to help you since you won't have the tiles around, where having the extra dmg is nice. To me the only two builds are 5/5/3 or 5/3/5. Stand alone I think 5/3/5 is the superior build. And if you want to do Daken/C.Mags Spam instead of Patch/C.Mags spam. Your blue dmg wont' matter anyway, so might as well keep Daken from hurting himself and go 5/5/3. C.Mags aside, Daken 5/3/5 is the more offensive build and superior when attacking. People have argued that 5/3/5 is superior on defense too since the AI will cast it as soon as it has enough blue, and it could suprise people who go into matches with low health. The counter arguement is, since blue will get cast earlier and won't be used as a finisher 5/3/5 will remove strike tiles, which hurts your dmg over the long run, not to mention you open up space for them to create strike tiles with their own daken or other red strike tile creator. Since the Spidey nerf I have seen an uptick in my defensive wins as well as a decrease in being attacked, so Spidey nerf was a buff in my book. So lacking that lockdown ability and matches potentially going longer the arguement for 5/5/3 as the superior defensive build stands.

    It really comes down to how you plan to play Daken and pair him with. If you play him with some of these: he's the main strike tile creator, you like to use blue as a finisher, you have better uses for another blue in early game, your team comp hits quick and hard then 5/3/5 is probably the build for you.

    If you cast Chemical Reaction early and often, if your team is late game damage as oppose to early game dmg, if you love heal, if you like having strong defensive PvP builds, if you have other strong strike tile creators in your comp or Falcon as a pairing. Then 5/5/3 is probably the build for you.

    The long and short. If you like 5/4/4 because of the heal then just go 5/5/3 if you like 5/4/4 because it does more dmg than 5/5/3 and the heal isn't much worse, then just go 5/3/5
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    Pamizard wrote:
    got my first two Daken 3*, both grey/black.

    Wonder if the best build to use is 5/3/5 or 5/5/3? Probably wont work on him much until i get a few max 2* but i got him from the current Sentry event

    I think 5/4/4 is the best balanced build: getting 5->7% on the heal can matter a good amount to making him sustainable, and 4->5 blue for a single tile reduction is probably not worth the point.

    of the three best builds 5/5/3, 5/4/4, and 5/3/5. 5/4/4 is the worst. see my earlier post. You get all the negatives of blue but none of the positives. The postivies of lvl 3 blue is you keep an extra strike tile, the positive of lvl 5 blue is the extra dmg. The difference between 5/5/3 and 5/4/4 is 358 on blue initial dmg, but within 4-5 turns you have evened out as that extra strike tile lost does affect future tile match dmg. And the only positive of 5/4/4 over 5/3/5 is the extra 2% heal at the cost of 305 dmg. In other words, you are trading 116 extra health per turn assuming enough blue, for 305 dmg. If you are matching blue, you won't have blue, thus that 2% isnt going to help you since you won't have the tiles around, where having the extra dmg is nice. To me the only two builds are 5/5/3 or 5/3/5. Stand alone I think 5/3/5 is the superior build. And if you want to do Daken/C.Mags Spam instead of Patch/C.Mags spam. Your blue dmg wont' matter anyway, so might as well keep Daken from hurting himself and go 5/5/3. C.Mags aside, Daken 5/3/5 is the more offensive build and superior when attacking. People have argued that 5/3/5 is superior on defense too since the AI will cast it as soon as it has enough blue, and it could suprise people who go into matches with low health. The counter arguement is, since blue will get cast earlier and won't be used as a finisher 5/3/5 will remove strike tiles, which hurts your dmg over the long run, not to mention you open up space for them to create strike tiles with their own daken or other red strike tile creator. Since the Spidey nerf I have seen an uptick in my defensive wins as well as a decrease in being attacked, so Spidey nerf was a buff in my book. So lacking that lockdown ability and matches potentially going longer the arguement for 5/5/3 as the superior defensive build stands.

    It really comes down to how you plan to play Daken and pair him with. If you play him with some of these: he's the main strike tile creator, you like to use blue as a finisher, you have better uses for another blue in early game, your team comp hits quick and hard then 5/3/5 is probably the build for you.

    If you cast Chemical Reaction early and often, if your team is late game damage as oppose to early game dmg, if you love heal, if you like having strong defensive PvP builds, if you have other strong strike tile creators in your comp or Falcon as a pairing. Then 5/5/3 is probably the build for you.

    The long and short. If you like 5/4/4 because of the heal then just go 5/5/3 if you like 5/4/4 because it does more dmg than 5/5/3 and the heal isn't much worse, then just go 5/3/5

    Good point on the 3->4 blue being a sidegrade. Now to figure out what the difference is between having 7 blue tiles on board vs 8: think I'm going to get around to coding up MPQ from scratch so I can run some simulations.
  • edited May 2014
    Since I started paying attention to how much damage you take in a match from the Sentry thread I noticed that Daken's damage isn't as much as I thought. Sure, Phermone Rage hurts a lot, but taking a Psi-Katana against a level 212 Psylocke is about 1700 damage on just the turn it's used. Daken, of course, has no possible way to unload AP besides Chemical Reaction.

    With Spiderman nerfed, Daken gains considerable power on his regen as blue is no longer something that is immediately matched. Magneto still completely annihilates blue tiles, but that'll probably change eventually too.

    It's actually pretty easy to calculate how his regen is work assuming a neutral weight on desireability is blue. The average state of the board has 9 blue tiles, so 7 or less means you have an average board and a blue match just occurred. With the starting neutral weight on blue's desireabilty, the chance of this happening is 1/7. This means on an average board he'd be regenning 86% of the time with maxed Healing & Heat. No such easy calculation exists for 'less than 8', other than that it has to be less than 86%.

    Edit: Decided to do a more complicated analysis. We'll assume the chance of the board having 8, 9, and 10 blue are all equally likely on average (they're not but it is far too difficult to try to figure this out). For 'less than 7', you don't regen if a blue match occured on the 8 and 9 case, so the chance is 1 - [(2/3) * (1*7)] = 90.5%. For 'less than 8', you don't regen if a blue match is made at all, so it's 86% like we calculated earlier.

    Note that currently the chance of a blue tile being matched by a human player is very close to 100% if Magneto is around, so the odds do change considerably depending on who you're fighting. But only Magneto has this extreme desireabilty for the color blue now that Spiderman is nerfed.
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phantron wrote:
    Since I started paying attention to how much damage you take in a match from the Sentry thread I noticed that Daken's damage isn't as much as I thought. Sure, Phermone Rage hurts a lot, but taking a Psi-Katana against a level 212 Psylocke is about 1700 damage on just the turn it's used. Daken, of course, has no possible way to unload AP besides Chemical Reaction.

    With Spiderman nerfed, Daken gains considerable power on his regen as blue is no longer something that is immediately matched. Magneto still completely annihilates blue tiles, but that'll probably change eventually too.

    It's actually pretty easy to calculate how his regen is work assuming a neutral weight on desireability is blue. The average state of the board has 9 blue tiles, so 7 or less means you have an average board and a blue match just occurred. With the starting neutral weight on blue's desireabilty, the chance of this happening is 1/7. This means on an average board he'd be regenning 86% of the time with maxed Healing & Heat. No such easy calculation exists for 'less than 8', other than that it has to be less than 86%.

    Yeah, we would need to reverse engineer MPQ and program a player AI that would prioritize non-blue matches and the game AI in order to figure that out...
  • TheHueyFreemanTheHueyFreeman Age Unconfirmed Posts: 472 Mover and Shaker
    So for you guys that have him at 141, how good is he? Never leave home without him? Does heat hit more than healing?

    Where would you put him on the character rankings? Top 5?
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