*** Daken (Classic) ***

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  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    did no one read my posts? I've been saying this forever, Daken removes strike tiles at random regardless of whose they are. While 5/3/5 is the most offensive and depends on blue as a finisher, if you want to use blue mid match then 5/5/3 is better since 5/5/3 > 5/4/4
  • So I pretty much never buy covers with HP but right after Daken was released I bought one Purple and one Blue. I am now 5/4/4 and want to respec to 5/5/3 so that Blue was a waste of HP. I also have an extra purple Daken in my cache about to get sold for iso as well.

    Worst 2500 HP ever.
  • john1620bjohn1620b Age Unconfirmed Posts: 367
    Yeah, I think I wasted at least 3 purple covers by buying them with HP, since they were so plentiful after he was released. But then again, you never know what covers will be offered, or when they will be offered, so I figure it helped me get ahead in the meantime.
  • daveomitedaveomite Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,331 Chairperson of the Boards
    Great convo about his better build. Here's some notes from mine right now. I have a 102 5/3/3 Daken at the moment, running him with 141 LT and boosted 150 Psy. Any time I fire his blue, actually every time so far, he always takes his strike tiles, not Psys.

    However, I wait until there are at least two Daken tiles before firing it. I know the ai will not wait though.

    Just noting it as I've tested it numerous times today. Every time I've fired it, he took his tiles, even if there were 3 Daken and 3 Psy tiles on the board. I have, however, seen him take Pun tiles from another team I've run with LT/Pun/Daken.

    So, odd to me that he's not taking Psy's, at least, haven't seen him do that unless he has no strikes on the board. Otherwise, with D strikes, he always seems to take them.

    However, I had been thinking about 5/3/5 myself, but starting to lean 5/5/3 after all the commentary on his powers, etc.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    I got my Daken at 4/3/2, toying with the idea of dropping some HP, I would make him 5/3/3 and then see how the rest of the covers fall. Although I can be oppiniated, I really do beleive that 5/5/3, 5/4/4, or 5/3/5 are all viable builds, and should be the only 3 you ever even consider. The issue with Daken does not lie with his Black skill as that one obviously gets better as you go, but 3 is okay, 4 is very good, and 5 can be over kill but solid. The question really comes down to blue and how you evaluate it.

    Level 3: Converts up to 3 Strike tiles (623 Base Damage + 358 per Strike tile * 3 tiles = 1697 damage).
    Level 4: Converts up to 4 Strike tiles (623 Base Damage + 358 per Strike tile * 4 tiles = 2055 damage).
    Level 5: Increases cleared Strike tile damage to 70 (623 Base Damage + 435 per strike tile * 4 tiles = 2363 damage).

    So lets look at what can't be seen. Lvl 4 and 5 convert 4 tiles for extra damage, so assuming there are 4 out when you cast them you remove 4, but lvl 3 which only removing 3 also leaves 1 for extra tile that will trigger on Chemical reaction that lvl 4 and 5 don't. Depending upon that tile remaining that dmg differnce between the two skills shrinks. What if there is only 3 strike tiles out and you have to cast it or die? Well all of a sudden lvl 3 and lvl 4 are the same skill and lvl 5 only does 1928 dmg which is 231 more than lvl 3. You only do an extra 77 dmg per tile removed from lvl 5 compared to lvl 4 and 3.

    I personally hate losing strike tiles, I sometimes match off colors as not to destroy one, so if I have to remove them, I want to remove as few as possible. What if by casting blue and creating green tiles I create a cascade? Well have that one extra strike tile left as opposed to lvl 4 and 5 is gonna net me more dmg.

    I plan on using Daken as a strike tile generating tank. I will make sure he always covers green and if I'm using him to tank I want him healing alot. So for me the only build is 5/5/3 but that is my playstyle. Someone else may use him as there main offensive weapon and hit hard with blue, then yeah, you are gonna want 5/3/5.

    Also for all you OBW players out there. Daken will take away OBW's purple and black leaving you only blue. So if you plan to abuse his strike tiles you are gonna have a hard time and he will hurt your steal as that is where OBW's true power lies is the ability to steal purple, blue or black on tile matches. Blue I can deal with, but all of a sudden when you can't match 3 purple and net 4, it really impedes her effectiveness.
  • Nonce Equitaur 2Nonce Equitaur 2 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,269 Chairperson of the Boards
    Buff idea for Daken to make his passive powers slightly less passive. Anyone agree / disagree?
      Pheremone Rage - Purple Passive
      (PASSIVE) Daken releases a scent that sets his enemies on edge, using their anger to his advantage. Whenever anyone makes a Green match, add a Red Strike tile to the board with a strength of 7.
      Level Upgrades
        Level 2: +10% Strike tile strength. Level 3: +15% Strike tile strength. Level 4: +15% Strike tile strength.
      Doubles when Daken's team has 15 Purple AP.
      Level 5: Creates 2 Strike tiles at 90% base strength. 180% base strength over 15 Purple AP.
      Max Level: 2 Strength 57 Strike tiles (114 when over 15 Purple AP)
        Healing & Heat - Black Passive
        (PASSIVE) Daken’s healing factor allows him to recover 3% of his health every turn. If there are fewer than 9 Blue tiles, the terrible drug “Heat” kicks in, and he loses 3% of his health instead.
        Level Upgrades
          Level 2: Heals 5% per turn. Level 3: 8 Blue tiles to avoid “Heat”. Level 4: Heals 7% per turn.
        Heals 10% when Daken's team has 15 Black AP.
        Level 5: 7 Blue tiles to avoid “Heat”.
        Max Level: Heals 406 HP/"Heat" 174 damage. 580 HP when 15 Black AP.
      • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
        Buff idea for Daken to make his passive powers slightly less passive. Anyone agree / disagree?
          Pheremone Rage - Purple Passive
          (PASSIVE) Daken releases a scent that sets his enemies on edge, using their anger to his advantage. Whenever anyone makes a Green match, add a Red Strike tile to the board with a strength of 7.
          Level Upgrades
            Level 2: +10% Strike tile strength. Level 3: +15% Strike tile strength. Level 4: +15% Strike tile strength.
          Doubles when Daken's team has 15 Purple AP.
          Level 5: Creates 2 Strike tiles at 90% base strength. 180% base strength over 15 Purple AP.
          Max Level: 2 Strength 57 Strike tiles (114 when over 15 Purple AP)
            Healing & Heat - Black Passive
            (PASSIVE) Daken’s healing factor allows him to recover 3% of his health every turn. If there are fewer than 9 Blue tiles, the terrible drug “Heat” kicks in, and he loses 3% of his health instead.
            Level Upgrades
              Level 2: Heals 5% per turn. Level 3: 8 Blue tiles to avoid “Heat”. Level 4: Heals 7% per turn.
            Heals 10% when Daken's team has 15 Black AP.
            Level 5: 7 Blue tiles to avoid “Heat”.
            Max Level: Heals 406 HP/"Heat" 174 damage. 580 HP when 15 Black AP.

            I like the ideas of the change, but dont really see a point to it since the character is fine as is. Passive skills are both a blessing and a curse, and the weaknesses of having a passive character on your team is a good thing to have as it encourages you to shore up the weak esses wih ohrr characters.
          • If you divide Daken's strike tiles strength/regen strength by half and then put in the proposed changes that'd be a good change.

            He's pretty crazy as is right now.
          • SpoitSpoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
            Was wondering how long it would take before he was declared OP icon_razz.gif
          • I'm not sure if this was mentioned, but in order for Daken to actually match blue on defense, you need another blue user on your team: blue is one of Daken's offcolors, so the AI will never match blue if you aren't running someone else.

            Just played against a patch/daken team (a downed sentry as third) to test this. They matched blue when there was also a green match available.
          • Buff idea for Daken to make his passive powers slightly less passive. Anyone agree / disagree?
              Pheremone Rage - Purple Passive
              (PASSIVE) Daken releases a scent that sets his enemies on edge, using their anger to his advantage. Whenever anyone makes a Green match, add a Red Strike tile to the board with a strength of 7.
              Level Upgrades
                Level 2: +10% Strike tile strength. Level 3: +15% Strike tile strength. Level 4: +15% Strike tile strength.
              Doubles when Daken's team has 15 Purple AP.
              Level 5: Creates 2 Strike tiles at 90% base strength. 180% base strength over 15 Purple AP.
              Max Level: 2 Strength 57 Strike tiles (114 when over 15 Purple AP)
                Healing & Heat - Black Passive
                (PASSIVE) Daken’s healing factor allows him to recover 3% of his health every turn. If there are fewer than 8 Blue tiles, the terrible drug “Heat” kicks in, and he loses 3% of his health instead.
                Level Upgrades
                  Level 2: Heals 5% per turn. Level 3: 8 Blue tiles to avoid “Heat”. Level 4: Heals 7% per turn.
                Heals 10% when Daken's team has 15 Black AP.
                Level 5: 7 Blue tiles to avoid “Heat”.
                Max Level: Heals 406 HP/"Heat" 174 damage. 580 HP when 15 Black AP.

                hold AP for more Passive effect isn't a buff, because neither player or AI will not hold AP that longer, its useless. how about this?
                  Pheremone Rage - Purple Passive
                  (PASSIVE) Daken releases a scent that sets his enemies on edge, using their anger to his advantage. Whenever anyone makes a Green match, add a Red Strike tile to the board with a strength of 7.
                  Level Upgrades
                    Level 2: +10% Strike tile strength. Level 3: +15% Strike tile strength. Level 4: +20% Strike tile strength. Level 5: Creates 2 Strike tiles at 120% base strength.
                  Max Level: 2 Strength 57 Strike tiles
                    Healing & Heat - Black Passive
                    (PASSIVE) Daken’s healing factor allows him to recover 3% of his health every turn. If there are fewer than 8 Blue tiles, the terrible drug “Heat” kicks in, and he loses 3% of his health instead.
                    Level Upgrades
                      Level 2: Heals 6% per turn. Level 3: 7 Blue tiles to avoid “Heat”. Level 4: Heals 8% per turn. Level 5: 6 Blue tiles to avoid “Heat”.
                    Max Level: Heals 406 HP/"Heat" 174 damage.

                    then that is a buff, what ever, hold AP are bad idea.
                  • mjsko wrote:
                    I'm not sure if this was mentioned, but in order for Daken to actually match blue on defense, you need another blue user on your team: blue is one of Daken's offcolors, so the AI will never match blue if you aren't running someone else.

                    Just played against a patch/daken team (a downed sentry as third) to test this. They matched blue when there was also a green match available.

                    The computer prefers to match its strong match colors but it's certainly not an absolute thing.
                  • Spoit wrote:
                    Was wondering how long it would take before he was declared OP icon_razz.gif

                    He's an awfully hard character to play against because he pretty much hoses strong green characters, and virtually every team has at least one person that's strong on green. And even if you somehow built a team without green, conceding green to the other side is asking for some serious beatdown later. I'm not sure if there's an easy way to deal with him after Magneto is nerfed so that you can't just immediately wipe out all the blue tiles on the board. I'm sure he does more damage sustained than almost any character in the game, but it's really hard to tell whether that makes up for his inability to use up AP directly. Although it seems like you could just focus on whoever is consuming the green AP first, if that person is Thor or Sentry, then that really doesn't work well.
                  • MaxCavaleraMaxCavalera Posts: 440 Mover and Shaker
                    I think maybe nice change for hit heat mechanic would be to turn it to a 1 turn self stun. He wouldn't take damage but he also wouldn't heal and most importantly he would stop making strike tiles. Not sure what you would want tweak the blue requirement for this. He would probably be too easy to handle with Cmags right now and DD could be useful daken neutralizer for periods of time.

                    Healing & Heat - Black Passive
                    (PASSIVE) Daken’s healing factor allows him to recover 3% of his health every turn. If there are fewer than 6 Blue tiles, the terrible drug “Heat” kicks in, and he is stunned for 2 turns.
                    Level Upgrades
                    Level 2: Heals 5% per turn.
                    Level 3: Stun reduced to one turn.
                    Level 4: Heals 7% per turn.
                    Level 5: 5 Blue tiles to avoid “Heat”.
                  • I think maybe nice change for hit heat mechanic would be to turn it to a 1 turn self stun. He wouldn't take damage but he also wouldn't heal and most importantly he would stop making strike tiles. Not sure what you would want tweak the blue requirement for this. He would probably be too easy to handle with Cmags right now and DD could be useful daken neutralizer for periods of time.

                    Healing & Heat - Black Passive
                    (PASSIVE) Daken’s healing factor allows him to recover 3% of his health every turn. If there are fewer than 6 Blue tiles, the terrible drug “Heat” kicks in, and he is stunned for 2 turns.
                    Level Upgrades
                    Level 2: Heals 5% per turn.
                    Level 3: Stun reduced to one turn.
                    Level 4: Heals 7% per turn.
                    Level 5: 5 Blue tiles to avoid “Heat”.

                    Those blue values are pretty much only possible if Magneto is around or Daken just spammed multiple Chemical Reactions. You can't use the average blue state with Magneto around as normal. Magneto literally wipes away all blue from the board as soon as he has 5 of them.

                    I don't think Daken's healing is that important as long as Magneto isn't around and that's an extreme state of board state. On average it works out about the same as Patch so there's no need to especially weaken or improve it as long as Patch is still around. I think what you can do is if heat kicks in, Daken cannot make strike tiles on enemy matches for the next turn (this is in addition of its existing penalty).
                  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
                    Daken is annoying, I'll give you that, but he's pretty easy to deal with. I either go at him fully with a L.Thor. Thor can take all the damage while matching green and still finish Daken off. And while the sticky guy got nerfed. Spider-man's purple is a great way to deal with Daken, Just play with C.Mags to give you a purple outlet and you can deal with him easily. But if you want to take out Daken quickly, there is probably no one better than Human Torch. Psylocke when paired with Daken can also take out another Daken quickly. The longer counter is Cap, as he can just lock him down. Put seriously. Go in with a Human Torch and focus down Daken and voila, he's gone.
                  • MaxCavaleraMaxCavalera Posts: 440 Mover and Shaker
                    Phantron wrote:
                    I think maybe nice change for hit heat mechanic would be to turn it to a 1 turn self stun. He wouldn't take damage but he also wouldn't heal and most importantly he would stop making strike tiles. Not sure what you would want tweak the blue requirement for this. He would probably be too easy to handle with Cmags right now and DD could be useful daken neutralizer for periods of time.

                    Healing & Heat - Black Passive
                    (PASSIVE) Daken’s healing factor allows him to recover 3% of his health every turn. If there are fewer than 6 Blue tiles, the terrible drug “Heat” kicks in, and he is stunned for 2 turns.
                    Level Upgrades
                    Level 2: Heals 5% per turn.
                    Level 3: Stun reduced to one turn.
                    Level 4: Heals 7% per turn.
                    Level 5: 5 Blue tiles to avoid “Heat”.

                    Those blue values are pretty much only possible if Magneto is around or Daken just spammed multiple Chemical Reactions. You can't use the average blue state with Magneto around as normal. Magneto literally wipes away all blue from the board as soon as he has 5 of them.

                    I don't think Daken's healing is that important as long as Magneto isn't around and that's an extreme state of board state. On average it works out about the same as Patch so there's no need to especially weaken or improve it as long as Patch is still around. I think what you can do is if heat kicks in, Daken cannot make strike tiles on enemy matches for the next turn (this is in addition of its existing penalty).

                    The stun idea was more to be a nerf to strike tile generation not so much healing because if we take Cmags out of the discussion removing X number of blue tiles off the board would allow the player to then match green with out strike tile generation. It was so much of an idea because he is too OP just an alternate mechanic that i think would be cool to reward smart board control. Also your alternate ability "can't make tiles" basically is the same idea repackaged.
                  • The stun idea was more to be a nerf to strike tile generation not so much healing because if we take Cmags out of the discussion removing X number of blue tiles off the board would allow the player to then match green with out strike tile generation. It was so much of an idea because he is too OP just an alternate mechanic that i think would be cool to reward smart board control. Also your alternate ability "can't make tiles" basically is the same idea repackaged.

                    Yes but the stun idea would mean if Daken is your last guy and your board is bad then you automatically lose and I don't think that makes a lot of sense. This is assuming the threshold doesn't change (if you lower them to 5 blue tiles the drawback will pretty much never happen unless Magneto is around).
                  • Phaserhawk wrote:
                    Daken is annoying, I'll give you that, but he's pretty easy to deal with. I either go at him fully with a L.Thor. Thor can take all the damage while matching green and still finish Daken off. And while the sticky guy got nerfed. Spider-man's purple is a great way to deal with Daken, Just play with C.Mags to give you a purple outlet and you can deal with him easily. But if you want to take out Daken quickly, there is probably no one better than Human Torch. Psylocke when paired with Daken can also take out another Daken quickly. The longer counter is Cap, as he can just lock him down. Put seriously. Go in with a Human Torch and focus down Daken and voila, he's gone.

                    You can't focus on Daken without Magneto and Magneto is horrendously broken. Daken's expected regen is higher than Patch's, especially if you have no strong blue outlet which is likely the case if he's regening at all (he'd never regen with Magneto around).

                    Right now Daken is incredibly powerful but he's also especially weak against Magneto, who is even more powerful, so it is kind of balanced, but counting on two overpowered characters to cancel each other is a terrible design.
                  • over_clockedover_clocked Posts: 3,961
                    Phantron, I think you are over-reading as he mentioned only Magneto's purple which is not broken at all, and specifically Spidey passive purple/Magneto Translocation synergy, while also mentioning other options for dealing with LD: HT and LT, Psy/Daken, Cap.

                    Spidey, Magneto, Psy and Cap want blue, too, and since many people go 5-3-5 with Daken, it's not THAT hard to hurt him.
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