*** Daken (Classic) ***

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  • MaxCavaleraMaxCavalera Posts: 440 Mover and Shaker
    Phantron wrote:
    The stun idea was more to be a nerf to strike tile generation not so much healing because if we take Cmags out of the discussion removing X number of blue tiles off the board would allow the player to then match green with out strike tile generation. It was so much of an idea because he is too OP just an alternate mechanic that i think would be cool to reward smart board control. Also your alternate ability "can't make tiles" basically is the same idea repackaged.

    Yes but the stun idea would mean if Daken is your last guy and your board is bad then you automatically lose and I don't think that makes a lot of sense. This is assuming the threshold doesn't change (if you lower them to 5 blue tiles the drawback will pretty much never happen unless Magneto is around).

    Yeah even a one turn stun could be overly punitive in certain scenarios. Although if the AI did mange to get you into a stunned scenario which i highly doubt they would just make matches and more blue will likely flood in. You could add a safeguard that when he comes out of stun he creates blues up to a max of 6 but now i am just overly complicating something i thought would be simple. Also with the way chem reaction works Daken v Daken you could end up in a low blue scenario and a pair of stunned dakens which would also be funny.
  • locked wrote:
    Phantron, I think you are over-reading as he mentioned only Magneto's purple which is not broken at all, and specifically Spidey passive purple/Magneto Translocation synergy, while also mentioning other options for dealing with LD: HT and LT, Psy/Daken, Cap.

    Spidey, Magneto, Psy and Cap want blue, too, and since many people go 5-3-5 with Daken, it's not THAT hard to hurt him.

    Other characters want blue but they don't have the ability to immediately wipe out all blue tiles on the board. When using anyone but Magneto I'm not necessarily trying to take every available blue match on the board because it costs me something to get that blue (not getting something else). With Magneto I can turn any available blue match on the board into a match 5 for free, so of course I should do it immediately. He can even turn blue tiles that aren't in a match 3 position into a match 4/5 for free. The net result is that Daken's regen is hosed against Magneto, but only against Magneto.
  • Thanks for the solid discussion, its like the forums of old. Waiting to see if I get any blacks from my x3 10 packs plus floater tokens I got kicking around and just buy the last 2 with stockpiled hp for 5-5-3 whenever they decide to add him to packs. 5-3-3 currently.
  • SpoitSpoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phantron wrote:
    locked wrote:
    Phantron, I think you are over-reading as he mentioned only Magneto's purple which is not broken at all, and specifically Spidey passive purple/Magneto Translocation synergy, while also mentioning other options for dealing with LD: HT and LT, Psy/Daken, Cap.

    Spidey, Magneto, Psy and Cap want blue, too, and since many people go 5-3-5 with Daken, it's not THAT hard to hurt him.

    Other characters want blue but they don't have the ability to immediately wipe out all blue tiles on the board. When using anyone but Magneto I'm not necessarily trying to take every available blue match on the board because it costs me something to get that blue (not getting something else). With Magneto I can turn any available blue match on the board into a match 5 for free, so of course I should do it immediately. He can even turn blue tiles that aren't in a match 3 position into a match 4/5 for free. The net result is that Daken's regen is hosed against Magneto, but only against Magneto.
    I've been hit by heat fairly often this pve when taking just OBW for the blues. And that was even with prioritizing greed, purple, and red first
  • over_clockedover_clocked Posts: 3,961
    3 black Daken starts to Heat himself when there are fewer than 8 blue tiles around, which means always after the available blue matches have been taken out and sometimes even more often. I had a rich blue board just now, after taking the blue matches by both teams (oBW/BP) the board resulted in only 7 scattered blues. I can only imagine the amount of self-killing Daken does on regular boards that didn't start out rich in blue.
  • Do people seriously try to attack Daken first without Magneto? Assuming he has at least level 4 on black, each turn he gains health makes up for more than 2 turns of health lost. Because there are no outright broken blue powers besides Magnetic Field (and MF would never need to worry about regen) you can't possibly keep the board low on blue consistently because that'd be severely cutting into your own attack options. Of course Daken loses 3% here and there but he gets all that health back whenever the board is back to even a neutral blue state (9 tiles).
  • SpoitSpoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phantron wrote:
    Do people seriously try to attack Daken first without Magneto? Assuming he has at least level 4 on black, each turn he gains health makes up for more than 2 turns of health lost. Because there are no outright broken blue powers besides Magnetic Field (and MF would never need to worry about regen) you can't possibly keep the board low on blue consistently because that'd be severely cutting into your own attack options. Of course Daken loses 3% here and there but he gets all that health back whenever the board is back to even a neutral blue state (9 tiles).
    I think you're vastly overestimating the amount of blue that's on the board with even casual matching. Doubly so if the AI has a blue character it's matching as well
  • Meto5000Meto5000 Posts: 583
    Spoit wrote:
    Phantron wrote:
    Do people seriously try to attack Daken first without Magneto? Assuming he has at least level 4 on black, each turn he gains health makes up for more than 2 turns of health lost. Because there are no outright broken blue powers besides Magnetic Field (and MF would never need to worry about regen) you can't possibly keep the board low on blue consistently because that'd be severely cutting into your own attack options. Of course Daken loses 3% here and there but he gets all that health back whenever the board is back to even a neutral blue state (9 tiles).
    I think you're vastly overestimating the amount of blue that's on the board with even casual matching. Doubly so if the AI has a blue character it's matching as well

    I think you're vastly underestimating the amount of blue on the board even when you are purposefully matching blue. I've been running Pun, OBW, and Daken in the Simulator and I often will go on a Blue matching spree to heal up and it's still very rare that I'm taking any heat damage. Heat damage actually happens so rarely that I sometimes forget there's a downside to his heal. Maybe I'd have trouble if I only had 3 in black but even when I was running 5/4/4 (5/5/3 now) the downside to heat was hardly noticeable.
  • Spoit wrote:
    I think you're vastly overestimating the amount of blue that's on the board with even casual matching. Doubly so if the AI has a blue character it's matching as well

    How can I overestimate the number of blue tiles when there are supposed to be 9 tiles of every color on average? If you don't have Magneto you're not going to have some kind of ultra high priority on blue. The AI matches whatever they want and there's nothing special about Daken's blue over any other strong color the opposing team have. If Daken loses health 50% of the time, he'd still average +2% health each turn, or +116 health per turn which is pretty much enough to cancel out any match 3 damage, and he loses health far less than 50% of the time when not facing Magneto.
  • SpoitSpoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phantron wrote:
    Spoit wrote:
    I think you're vastly overestimating the amount of blue that's on the board with even casual matching. Doubly so if the AI has a blue character it's matching as well

    How can I overestimate the number of blue tiles when there are supposed to be 9 tiles of every color on average? If you don't have Magneto you're not going to have some kind of ultra high priority on blue. The AI matches whatever they want and there's nothing special about Daken's blue over any other strong color the opposing team have. If Daken loses health 50% of the time, he'd still average +2% health each turn, or +116 health per turn which is pretty much enough to cancel out any match 3 damage, and he loses health far less than 50% of the time when not facing Magneto.
    Say there's 9 blue on the board, and you match 3, leaving 6. How many turns, on average would it take for 3 more to drop? Assuming you only replace 6 (3+3) a turn, you're averaging less than 1 replaced a turn, meaning that you have like a 33% uptime on the heal.

    I almost killed my laken this morning, almost entirely from heat damage, because he wasn't exactly jumping out in front with punisher covering green and black, and OBW taking purple.
  • Meto5000Meto5000 Posts: 583
    Spoit wrote:
    Phantron wrote:
    Spoit wrote:
    I think you're vastly overestimating the amount of blue that's on the board with even casual matching. Doubly so if the AI has a blue character it's matching as well

    How can I overestimate the number of blue tiles when there are supposed to be 9 tiles of every color on average? If you don't have Magneto you're not going to have some kind of ultra high priority on blue. The AI matches whatever they want and there's nothing special about Daken's blue over any other strong color the opposing team have. If Daken loses health 50% of the time, he'd still average +2% health each turn, or +116 health per turn which is pretty much enough to cancel out any match 3 damage, and he loses health far less than 50% of the time when not facing Magneto.
    Say there's 9 blue on the board, and you match 3, leaving 6. How many turns, on average would it take for 3 more to drop? Assuming you only replace 6 (3+3) a turn, you're averaging less than 1 replaced a turn, meaning that you have like a 33% uptime on the heal.

    I almost killed my laken this morning, almost entirely from heat damage, because he wasn't exactly jumping out in front with punisher covering green and black, and OBW taking purple.

    I think the biggest thing is that typically a lot more than 3 tiles are replaced every round. Plenty of goons and heroes shake up the board, and with random cascades I bet the average number of tiles destroyed every round is actually closer to 6. There are definitely outlier rounds when I have had Daken take heat damage something like 5 times in a row, but more often than not, he takes heat damage only 1-2 times the entire match.

    Unless you're running with 3 in black, it boggles me that people complain about taking so much heat damage.

    Edit: To the OP -- The healing numbers are wrong. At max level heat heals 406 health or does 174 damage.
  • Spoit wrote:
    Say there's 9 blue on the board, and you match 3, leaving 6. How many turns, on average would it take for 3 more to drop? Assuming you only replace 6 (3+3) a turn, you're averaging less than 1 replaced a turn, meaning that you have like a 33% uptime on the heal.

    I almost killed my laken this morning, almost entirely from heat damage, because he wasn't exactly jumping out in front with punisher covering green and black, and OBW taking purple.

    So let's say you start with black at level 4 (need 8 blue to avoid heat). There are 9 blue so you match one, leaving 6, and you replenish blue at 3/7 per turn (3 tiles matched, 1/7 chance each would be blue), then:

    Your Turn 1 - Match blue, 6 3/7 on field
    Enemy Turn 1 - 6 6/7 blue on field
    YT2 - 7 2/7 blue on field, Daken 97% health
    ET2 - 7 5/7 blue on field, Daken 97% health
    YT3 - 8 1/7 blue on field, Daken 94% health (because the turn started with 7 5/7 blue for heat)
    ET3 - 8 4/7 blue on field, Daken 94% health
    YT4 - 9 blue on field, Daken back to 100% health (+7% from heal)

    Now you'd lose health if there was another blue match in this sequence, but that'd require 2 blue matches in 7 moves and I calculate that to be about 8% chance. There's also 6/7 of the time where you just didn't start with a blue match.

    Of course you can always have bad luck. I'm sure when you clear a row and see 6 of the same color dropped in a row that's got to be at least as unlikely as Daken killing himself with regen. But that's just the breaks and you certainly can't play the game assuming 6 of the same color is supposed to drop in a row or that Daken is just going to kill himself on a bad blue board, even though it can certainly happen.
  • Remember him? He's the guy who was released at the conclusion of Heroic Oscorp one month ago. What exactly is preventing his release into the recruit token pool? Seriously, guys, that was May 14th. The entirety of Season 2 will have elapsed since his premiere, and I can't justify quitting this game until I've cashed in the 260-someodd tokens I'm holding.

    Seriously. This must be the work of several minutes.
  • BowgentleBowgentle Posts: 5,038 Chairperson of the Boards
    Moon 17 wrote:
    Remember him? He's the guy who was released at the conclusion of Heroic Oscorp one month ago. What exactly is preventing his release into the recruit token pool? Seriously, guys, that was May 14th. The entirety of Season 2 will have elapsed since his premiere, and I can't justify quitting this game until I've cashed in the 260-someodd tokens I'm holding.

    Seriously. This must be the work of several minutes.
    Judging by the number of people with maxed UDakens, his covers sell extremely well, which probably is why he isn't in packs yet.
    I'm lucky and got 12/13 covers from PVE, PVP and lucky event token pulls, and didn't hesitate a second to buy that last cover.

    I'd like to think there's a reason other than business that he isn't in packs yet, but i prefer Occam's razor.
  • ThatOneGuyjp189512ThatOneGuyjp189512 Posts: 543 Critical Contributor
    this is the only reason i bought out all his covers(having gotten a 2/2/2 build from PVP and PVE) cause i didn't want to chance it by buying event packs and getting **** and not even the ones i wanted in regards to 3 stars.
  • Bowgentle wrote:
    Moon 17 wrote:
    Remember him? He's the guy who was released at the conclusion of Heroic Oscorp one month ago. What exactly is preventing his release into the recruit token pool? Seriously, guys, that was May 14th. The entirety of Season 2 will have elapsed since his premiere, and I can't justify quitting this game until I've cashed in the 260-someodd tokens I'm holding.

    Seriously. This must be the work of several minutes.
    Judging by the number of people with maxed UDakens, his covers sell extremely well, which probably is why he isn't in packs yet.
    I'm lucky and got 12/13 covers from PVE, PVP and lucky event token pulls, and didn't hesitate a second to buy that last cover.

    I'd like to think there's a reason other than business that he isn't in packs yet, but i prefer Occam's razor.
    Well D3 gave away his covers like candy at the beginning of season 2, some people got all covers just by competing in those events. Mine was 5/4/3, so I only bought 1 cover eventually making him 5/4/4.
  • MojoWildMojoWild Posts: 763 Critical Contributor
    I got purple cover a couple days ago. I don't remember if it was from an event token or not though.
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    There isnt a crazy conspiracy going on with daken. 3* heroes have always taken roughly a month to get into the token pool (with a few exceptions), so i dont see how this case is any different than that. It just feels longer because its a hero that you actually care about.

    Tldr: its mostly in your heads, and patience is a virtue.
  • simonsezsimonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    Has anyone ever tried to measure how long a given strike tile will survive on a board? During all the debating of 3 vs. 4 blue, the breakeven estimate was anywhere between 6 and 11 turns, depending on whose strike tiles they are. This seems like a pretty long time to me, so I'm skeptical that keeping a tile on the board, rather than just taking the immediate damage, is really beneficial.
  • 3 to 4 weeks is typical. That puts us 1 to 2 behind.
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