*** Daken (Classic) ***

Unknown

Nonce Equitaur 2 wrote:

I updated Daken's stats in the first post based on a reported level 138 lazy Daken. If anyone faces a level 141 Daken, please post the stats.

I had posted a lvl 142 for the AI daken (2 or 3 posts before you). But never take note of the heal and heat part. Oh btw, his max hp @ lvl 141 is 7250 ? Not 58xx or something like that ?

scottee

Ready for the metagame change?

Doom is the Lazy Daken hard counter.

Focus blue to prevent LDaken from getting it, then Telepathic Strike eliminating ALL blue tiles from the board. Summon demons to cover 6 red tiles that can now not be turned into strike tiles. And let demons kill the other 2 teammates while you watch LDaken Heat to death in the background because he's now completely useless.

EDIT: Credit goes to Moon 17 for the original idea in General Discussion.
EDIT: And Mawtful earlier in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5799&start=40#p116280

Meto5000

Phaserhawk wrote:

And for the record as we are seeing what Daken is, I think pairing him with Falcon is a terrible idea, you pump up strike tiles just to get them destroyed? I don't think so. Lazy Thor/Daken yes, Daken/Falcon no

I don't plan on matching blue very often with the DTF combo. The only time I'm prioritizing blue over yellow is if there are absolutely no strike tiles on the board. Otherwise, I'm going yellow -> green if there are 3+ strike tiles on the board and green -> yellow if there are more than three.

That being said, I've not leveled my Falcon at all so will be rolling with a Daken, LT and OBW combo to start out with.

Meto5000

Hannybal wrote:

Nonce Equitaur 2 wrote:

I updated Daken's stats in the first post based on a reported level 138 lazy Daken. If anyone faces a level 141 Daken, please post the stats.

I had posted a lvl 142 for the AI daken (2 or 3 posts before you). But never take note of the heal and heat part. Oh btw, his max hp @ lvl 141 is 7250 ? Not 58xx or something like that ?

Daken's max HP is almost definitely 5800. At level 167 he has like 6500 or something. Where are you getting the 7250 number from?

Unknown

scottee wrote:

Ready for the metagame change?

Doom is the Lazy Daken hard counter.

Focus blue to prevent LDaken from getting it, then Telepathic Strike eliminating ALL blue tiles from the board. Summon demons to cover 6 red tiles that can now not be turned into strike tiles. And let demons kill the other 2 teammates while you watch LDaken Heat to death in the background because he's now completely useless.

EDIT: Credit goes to Moon 17 for the original idea in General Discussion.

Summon Demons takes way too long to get online as a viable stop for Phermone Rage. If anything it's likely the other way around where you've all the strike tiles preventing Summon Demons from doing anything.

Technopathic Strike is basically completely useless because it costs the most valuable AP in the game (blue) and converts it to something that's pretty average. If you're sitting on that much valuable blue AP, you should already win the game. And if you got none of the broken blue characters, matching blue to get rid of blue on the board is pretty much just skipping your turn when you can't use blue.

NorthernPolarity

Phantron wrote:

scottee wrote:

Ready for the metagame change?

Doom is the Lazy Daken hard counter.

Focus blue to prevent LDaken from getting it, then Telepathic Strike eliminating ALL blue tiles from the board. Summon demons to cover 6 red tiles that can now not be turned into strike tiles. And let demons kill the other 2 teammates while you watch LDaken Heat to death in the background because he's now completely useless.

EDIT: Credit goes to Moon 17 for the original idea in General Discussion.

Summon Demons takes way too long to get online as a viable stop for Phermone Rage. If anything it's likely the other way around where you've all the strike tiles preventing Summon Demons from doing anything.

Technopathic Strike is basically completely useless because it costs the most valuable AP in the game (blue) and converts it to something that's pretty average. If you're sitting on that much valuable blue AP, you should already win the game. And if you got none of the broken blue characters, matching blue to get rid of blue on the board is pretty much just skipping your turn when you can't use blue.

Classic phantron answer. Completely correct, but based on the point of cmags/spidey being op. Lets revisit the idea after the nerfs and see how it goes then!

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Classic phantron answer. Completely correct, but based on the point of cmags/spidey being op. Lets revisit the idea after the nerfs and see how it goes then!

Even without factoring the overpowering presence of Magneto/Spiderman, what is the point of a skill that requires 3 blue matches that gets rid of blue tiles? By the time you have enough for Technopathic Strike, there wouldn't be very much blue tiles left so you get very minor cascades while using up 9 blue. For that you amount you can at least get an Anti-Grav in. The only case I've seen where Technopathic Strike is great is when you've a blue AP generating goon, because then you can hit 9 blue AP without actually matching blue so that there's enough blue tiles left to actually trigger a decent cascade. But no player will ever have the luxury of having a blue AP generator on their side.

over_clocked

Phantron wrote:

What I mean by lost cause is that you shouldn't worry about the drawback of requiring blue tiles in the current meta game because blue is absolutely dominant. If Daken had an ability that simply eliminated all blue tiles without any possibility of matching anything and healing & heat is still the same, it's still a good ability because eliminating blue completely makes it much harder for anyone to attack you since almost all the degenerate combos starts with blue tiles.

Side note: I love it when Phantron calls tactics dirty, cheap, degenerate, etc. when he obviously used to rely on them himself, too (not sure about now). Boring (Spidey), OP (Magneto)? Yes. Degenerate? Well compared to Headbutt... I dunno.

Mawtful

scottee wrote:

Ready for the metagame change?

Doom is the Lazy Daken hard counter.

Focus blue to prevent LDaken from getting it, then Telepathic Strike eliminating ALL blue tiles from the board. Summon demons to cover 6 red tiles that can now not be turned into strike tiles. And let demons kill the other 2 teammates while you watch LDaken Heat to death in the background because he's now completely useless.

EDIT: Credit goes to Moon 17 for the original idea in General Discussion.

Not that I care, but I did mention that nearly a month ago in this very thread: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5799&start=40#p116280

scottee

Mawtful wrote:

scottee wrote:

Ready for the metagame change?

Doom is the Lazy Daken hard counter.

Focus blue to prevent LDaken from getting it, then Telepathic Strike eliminating ALL blue tiles from the board. Summon demons to cover 6 red tiles that can now not be turned into strike tiles. And let demons kill the other 2 teammates while you watch LDaken Heat to death in the background because he's now completely useless.

EDIT: Credit goes to Moon 17 for the original idea in General Discussion.

Not that I care, but I did mention that nearly a month ago in this very thread: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5799&start=40#p116280

Credited.

Unknown

locked wrote:

Phantron wrote:

What I mean by lost cause is that you shouldn't worry about the drawback of requiring blue tiles in the current meta game because blue is absolutely dominant. If Daken had an ability that simply eliminated all blue tiles without any possibility of matching anything and healing & heat is still the same, it's still a good ability because eliminating blue completely makes it much harder for anyone to attack you since almost all the degenerate combos starts with blue tiles.

Side note: I love it when Phantron calls tactics dirty, cheap, degenerate, etc. when he obviously used to rely on them himself, too (not sure about now). Boring (Spidey), OP (Magneto)? Yes. Degenerate? Well compared to Headbutt... I dunno.

Nobody gets to use level 230 Juggernaut for PvP, otherwise that'd be ultra cheap too. Keeping blue tiles is obviously not an issue against computer since they don't use any of the usual abuses with blues, though in that case you're usually busy hoarding blue so again you can't really be bothered by something like a regen drawback when you need to grab all the blues to do whatever you need to beat the computer.

At any rate being competitive means you use the tool you got. If I had a pre nerf Ragnarok I'd use him too. Doesn't mean that he was in any way balanced.

Nonce Equitaur 2

over_clocked

What I meant is that however broken, our current OP blue skills require some strategy - however little. Headbutt was meant in a general sense, not necessarily lvl 230 Juggs' Headbutt, but most pure damage abilities are similar.

Unknown

did anyone receive their Lazy Dakens yet? this is pretty ridiculous

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

By the time you have enough for Technopathic Strike, there wouldn't be very much blue tiles left so you get very minor cascades while using up 9 blue. For that you amount you can at least get an Anti-Grav in. The only case I've seen where Technopathic Strike is great is when you've a blue AP generating goon, because then you can hit 9 blue AP without actually matching blue so that there's enough blue tiles left to actually trigger a decent cascade. But no player will ever have the luxury of having a blue AP generator on their side.

Give it a try, Technopathic Strike works out much better than it looks like on paper. If timed correctly you'll get a real nightmare cascade, gaining enough black to immediately follow up with Summon Demons. I don't like playing Doom, that combo can be pretty impressive though.

Moral

The bigger the Technopathic cascade, the more blue that falls back on the screen. For what you're attempting the best result is no cascade.

Overall, pretty minimal drawback.

Unknown

Technopathic Strike only works in very long games. The average number of blue tiles on the board is 9. If you just got 9 of them, that's 3 turns so there will be on average 3*3*2*(1/7) = 2-3 blue tiles left added in the 3 turns by your and the enemy's match 3s, which leads to pretty much nothing when you do use Technopathic Strike. If both side matched no blues for 10 turns, that will roughly reset the board back to average state (10*2*3 = 60 tiles replaced), and that's an awful long time to wait after you got enough AP to use Technopathic Strike with a fairly unrealistic expectation.

Additionally there's the problem that while you're replenishing the blues, you also can't match black because if you matched most of the blacks there wouldn't be much to cascade into either, and you have no control on what the enemy is matching while the board is replenishing the blue tiles. In practical turns this ability only works if you got an extremely heavy blue board at start, or you got a massive cascade after you got 9 blue to reset the board back to a state where there's enough blue tile to convert. I see the other side use Technopathic Strike all the time in the Doom tournaments, and usually it'd be a pretty good result if they got a single match 5. Using 9 blue for a single black match 5 is just not a good trade even if blue isn't the most powerful color in the game. At best it's something you do when you're exactly 5 black away from a Rage of the Panther.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

Technopathic Strike only works in very long games. The average number of blue tiles on the board is 9. If you just got 9 of them, that's 3 turns so there will be on average 3*3*2*(1/7) = 2-3 blue tiles left added in the 3 turns by your and the enemy's match 3s, which leads to pretty much nothing when you do use Technopathic Strike. If both side matched no blues for 10 turns, that will roughly reset the board back to average state (10*2*3 = 60 tiles replaced), and that's an awful long time to wait after you got enough AP to use Technopathic Strike with a fairly unrealistic expectation.

Additionally there's the problem that while you're replenishing the blues, you also can't match black because if you matched most of the blacks there wouldn't be much to cascade into either, and you have no control on what the enemy is matching while the board is replenishing the blue tiles. In practical turns this ability only works if you got an extremely heavy blue board at start, or you got a massive cascade after you got 9 blue to reset the board back to a state where there's enough blue tile to convert. I see the other side use Technopathic Strike all the time in the Doom tournaments, and usually it'd be a pretty good result if they got a single match 5. Using 9 blue for a single black match 5 is just not a good trade even if blue isn't the most powerful color in the game. At best it's something you do when you're exactly 5 black away from a Rage of the Panther.

That pretty well covers the theoretical side. Moving on to the more practical part, without CMags games tend to get quite a bit longer. And you don't really want to go out of your way to match black, it's more beneficial to have those tiles litter the board. I've fielded teams in the Doom Tournament that didn't have much use for blue, in those situations I came to regret not actively denying Technopathic Strike. It's not the matter of a single match-5, it's the screen virtually exploding in fireworks. Maybe i just got unlucky a few times, but it also worked the other way around when I tried. Most impressive was a cascade almost downing Punisher from close to full health, followed up by two turns of Summon Demons.

Phaserhawk

which is why you run him with M.Mags, match purple to creat blue to use technopathic strike

Moral

Many have received the blue cover. We have any specifics on 3-5 text yet?