*** Daken (Classic) ***

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  • edited May 2014
    Daken's level 223 stats is available from the final mission and presumably he's got 5/5/5 like all NPCs do.

    Phermone Rage is 2X90 strike tiles.

    Healing & Heat is 7% healed, or take 3% damage if fewer than 7 blue tiles

    Chemical Reaction is around 971 + 679*up to 4 strike tiles, converts 2 blue to green.

    While it's difficult to scale this back to 141, he'd be hitting for up to 3687 damage with 5 blue and only Juggernaut has a better quick strike attack. Of course, the resource it consumes (up to 4 strike tiles) can be considerable, but that's a lot of damage for just 5 blue. Seems like he'd be ideal against low HP characters like The Hood where you're not really worried about having some kind of long term drawback (losing up to 4 strike tiles) as long as he dies quick.

    As a point of comparison, a similar level Ares is part of his team and does 525 damage per green on Onslaught. Onslaught is generally the best low cost damaging in the game and Chemical Reaction beats it by a decent margin provided you have the strike tiles to be consumed. Even if you have only 2 strike tiles that'd be 2329 damage, compared to 2625 damage for 5 green on Onslaught. Sure, these are level 223 abilities, but it gives you an idea of what you're looking for. 2 strike tiles basically puts you in a 5 AP Onslaught range.
  • Phantron wrote:
    Daken's level 223 stats is available from the final mission and presumably he's got 5/5/5 like all NPCs do.

    Phermone Rage is 2X90 strike tiles.

    Healing & Heat is 7% healed, or take 3% damage if fewer than 7 blue tiles

    Chemical Reaction is around 900 + 670*up to 4 strike tiles.

    While it's difficult to scale this back to 141, he'd be hitting for up to 3K damage with 5 blue and only Juggernaut has a better quick strike attack. Of course, the resource it consumes (up to 4 strike tiles) can be considerable, but that's a lot of damage for just 5 blue. Seems like he'd be ideal against low HP characters like The Hood where you're not really worried about having some kind of long term drawback (losing up to 4 strike tiles) as long as he dies quick.

    an alliance mate has a level 183 and it's 2x74 and the blue is 785 + 556* for 4 tiles. I am assuming the 4->5th blue would be going from 3 tiles to 4? Not sure if that's worth the less healing? We need someone with it around 141 to compare too! icon_e_smile.gif
  • TheVultureTheVulture Posts: 347 Mover and Shaker
    edited May 2014
    You can see 3* Daken in action now, in the final node of Heroic mode. icon_cool.gif

    His blue is not a nuke, unless the AI one is someone very high level with very few covers - I didn't note his level (sorry) but it was at least 141 (he had over 6k health) and the damage was something like 700 + (2 x 500 Strike tile destruction).
    Still very good for 5 AP.
    He was making 2 x 62 Strike tiles per match.

    He has quite a grimace going on in the fight screen, but he looks rather more like Daken than he does in the character screen (where they tried to squash him into the Wolverine's body shape).
    Uses a Best In The World style animation for his Chemical Reaction.

    - - - Opened game again - - -

    Level 167

    6,818 Health
    3 Environmental
    4.0 Critical
    Pheromone Rage = 2 x 68
    Healing & Heat = 7% or loses 3% if less than 7 blue
    Chemical Reaction = 730 damage + convert 2 tiles + convert up to 4 friendly Strike tiles for 511 each

    According to information in OP, he cannot be 555 covers as 5th Healing & Heat would mean he only takes damage on less than 6 blue - so is he 545 or 544... icon_e_geek.gif
  • His blue hits incredibly hard. It does more damage than Onslaught at 5 AP if all the conditions are met, for the same cost (5 blue). From PvE Onslaught is consistent the #2 strongest hitting low AP ability in the game (Headbutt is obviously #1). Yes, these are levels you cannot possibly achieve, but it gives you a rough idea of how good an attack is. If Ares could be level 141, Onslaught would be quite scary to go against, and Daken could do better than Onslaught in the right scenarios. Of course you got to give up a lot to do that kind of damage, but a lot of the time being able to KO an annoying character early is all you need to win.
  • Phantron wrote:
    His blue hits incredibly hard. It does more damage than Onslaught at 5 AP if all the conditions are met, for the same cost (5 blue). From PvE Onslaught is consistent the #2 strongest hitting low AP ability in the game (Headbutt is obviously #1). Yes, these are levels you cannot possibly achieve, but it gives you a rough idea of how good an attack is. If Ares could be level 141, Onslaught would be quite scary to go against, and Daken could do better than Onslaught in the right scenarios. Of course you got to give up a lot to do that kind of damage, but a lot of the time being able to KO an annoying character early is all you need to win.

    The question is, how bad is the AI going to use Ldaken? I assume every time they get 5 blue it will automatically use his blue power. Assuming you are using him with falcon this will be bad because his blue power won't ever go off to help clear enemy tiles. Also if they use it when there are 0 or 1 tiles out there on the board.
  • sms4002 wrote:
    Phantron wrote:
    His blue hits incredibly hard. It does more damage than Onslaught at 5 AP if all the conditions are met, for the same cost (5 blue). From PvE Onslaught is consistent the #2 strongest hitting low AP ability in the game (Headbutt is obviously #1). Yes, these are levels you cannot possibly achieve, but it gives you a rough idea of how good an attack is. If Ares could be level 141, Onslaught would be quite scary to go against, and Daken could do better than Onslaught in the right scenarios. Of course you got to give up a lot to do that kind of damage, but a lot of the time being able to KO an annoying character early is all you need to win.

    The question is, how bad is the AI going to use Ldaken? I assume every time they get 5 blue it will automatically use his blue power. Assuming you are using him with falcon this will be bad because his blue power won't ever go off to help clear enemy tiles. Also if they use it when there are 0 or 1 tiles out there on the board.

    Whenever he has enough to use Chemical Reaction, Falcon also has enough to at least clear something on that turn. Phermone Rage works on enemy matches, so getting the required strike tile isn't going to be too hard.

    The bigger concern is that you really don't want to give up your Inspiriation upgraded tiles for Chemical Reaction in this combo. When played by a human you'd probably just hold off on Chemical Reaction after you upgraded a few strike tiles and save it for the killing blow, whereas when the AI plays it, it will happily use up your Inspiration upgraded strike tiles for a bit of extra damage.
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phantron wrote:
    I'm hard pressed to think of any meaningful team besides Daken + Falcon + Thor. Daken obviously goes with Falcon, and with these two you'll be collecting yellow and green, and only Thor has that combination of colors at the high end. Punisher and HT would be okay, but not having a yellow power wastes the yellow AP that you'll surely be accumulating.

    I don't think this team is going to play out as well as you think it is. From my experience with Punisher/Falcon/LazyThor, LazyThor just felt really slow. I rarely got enough yellow to use Thunder Strike due to having to prioritize green, and while call the storm obviously doesn't make sense in that team, if I had trouble getting enough yellow for Thunder Strike, I'm sure that I'd have just as much trouble getting enough green for CTS. I think that a HT/Falcon/Daken team is going to be much better on offense. While you have no active yellow, HT's fast green more than makes up for it. On defense LT's obviously better, but meh.
  • Phantron wrote:
    I'm hard pressed to think of any meaningful team besides Daken + Falcon + Thor. Daken obviously goes with Falcon, and with these two you'll be collecting yellow and green, and only Thor has that combination of colors at the high end. Punisher and HT would be okay, but not having a yellow power wastes the yellow AP that you'll surely be accumulating.

    I don't think this team is going to play out as well as you think it is. From my experience with Punisher/Falcon/LazyThor, LazyThor just felt really slow. I rarely got enough yellow to use Thunder Strike due to having to prioritize green, and while call the storm obviously doesn't make sense in that team, if I had trouble getting enough yellow for Thunder Strike, I'm sure that I'd have just as much trouble getting enough green for CTS. I think that a HT/Falcon/Daken team is going to be much better on offense. While you have no active yellow, HT's fast green more than makes up for it. On defense LT's obviously better, but meh.

    Right now yellow is weird because you're trying to give away yellow if the other side doesn't have Thor, even if you have Thor, because they literally can't do anything with yellow if they don't have Thor so it's okay you don't have your Thunder Strike. Therefore getting yellow is not a priority unless facing Thor so you might not have to worry too much about consuming yellow AP either. However that's because of a lack of useful yellow powers, and if you're fighting Thor you definitely don't want him to get yellow and have to match them yourself even if you don't need it immediately.

    So Daken/Falcon/Thor is likely good against Thor, but only average against most people because you're hoarding a color that nobody was ever going to fight over anyway.
  • Meto5000Meto5000 Posts: 583
    Level 138 Daken (Probably pretty close to Max)

    Pheromone Rage: 2x 56 Strength strike tiles
    Healing & Heat: 7%/3% 7 tiles
    Chemical Reaction: 602 base, 421 per Strike tile up to 4, 2 blue to green
  • Meto5000Meto5000 Posts: 583
    Phantron wrote:
    I'm hard pressed to think of any meaningful team besides Daken + Falcon + Thor. Daken obviously goes with Falcon, and with these two you'll be collecting yellow and green, and only Thor has that combination of colors at the high end. Punisher and HT would be okay, but not having a yellow power wastes the yellow AP that you'll surely be accumulating.

    I don't think this team is going to play out as well as you think it is. From my experience with Punisher/Falcon/LazyThor, LazyThor just felt really slow. I rarely got enough yellow to use Thunder Strike due to having to prioritize green, and while call the storm obviously doesn't make sense in that team, if I had trouble getting enough yellow for Thunder Strike, I'm sure that I'd have just as much trouble getting enough green for CTS. I think that a HT/Falcon/Daken team is going to be much better on offense. While you have no active yellow, HT's fast green more than makes up for it. On defense LT's obviously better, but meh.

    Why are you prioritizing green with this lineup over yellow? Other than matching it once to get going, I'd be prioritizing yellow over all else. Unlike with Punisher, you don't need to match green to get strike tiles on the ground. If the other team is denying yellow, then you match green > blue > red > purple probably in that order. Either way, you're building up to bombs with yellow, blue and green. 5 blue for ~2300 damage is fast and crazy.
  • I think his blue only destroy's red tiles btw. Is have to check more but he refused to destroy the enemy tiles dropped by patch with his blue (I could have missed something though, much harder to test without controlling the character...)
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Meto5000 wrote:
    Phantron wrote:
    I'm hard pressed to think of any meaningful team besides Daken + Falcon + Thor. Daken obviously goes with Falcon, and with these two you'll be collecting yellow and green, and only Thor has that combination of colors at the high end. Punisher and HT would be okay, but not having a yellow power wastes the yellow AP that you'll surely be accumulating.

    I don't think this team is going to play out as well as you think it is. From my experience with Punisher/Falcon/LazyThor, LazyThor just felt really slow. I rarely got enough yellow to use Thunder Strike due to having to prioritize green, and while call the storm obviously doesn't make sense in that team, if I had trouble getting enough yellow for Thunder Strike, I'm sure that I'd have just as much trouble getting enough green for CTS. I think that a HT/Falcon/Daken team is going to be much better on offense. While you have no active yellow, HT's fast green more than makes up for it. On defense LT's obviously better, but meh.

    Why are you prioritizing green with this lineup over yellow? Other than matching it once to get going, I'd be prioritizing yellow over all else. Unlike with Punisher, you don't need to match green to get strike tiles on the ground. If the other team is denying yellow, then you match green > blue > red > purple probably in that order. Either way, you're building up to bombs with yellow, blue and green. 5 blue for ~2300 damage is fast and crazy.

    You need to match green twice to get going, since falcon's inspiration works on 3 tiles. i'm saying that in my experience in the Top Gun tournament from matching 9 green and then prioritizing yellow above all else, i still typically wans't able to get enough yellow for thunder strike because the games just ended too quickly to get 12AP; I can't imagine matching 2 greens and then prioritizing yellow being that much different. LT is obviously a great and the obvious choice to pair up with Daken/Falcon, I'm just saying that he's not the only consideration ever, which is what Phantron suggested. I don't have a high level Torch to test it out, but I'm betting that his green alone will be are far more synergistic with Daken/Falcon than LT's yellow/green are. Torch also has the benefit of providing an otherwise unused black source (although you probably aren't going to be matching black often) and a far superior red.
  • Let's say you make 2 green matches and then 2 yellow matches, you get 79*6 = 474 from inspiration plus the original value of the strike tiles.

    That might be enough to wrap the game up quickly especially in combination with stuff like Molotov, or it might not. It's difficult to say this without having the characters to work with. It's entirely possible that Inspiriation is strong enough that you can simply hit 2 yellow match 3s and then just go with the standard 'give yellow to other side if Thor isn't around' strategy. After all, without Thor each match on yellow is basically like skipping a turn, and you certainly don't need too many turns to win when you have over 500 damage worth of strike tiles.

    Right now yellow is not a color you prioritize because it is better to give them to the other side as long as they don't have Thor. Even when you have Thor, yellow is hardly the color you go for first because it's better to save all the match 3s on the board for the other side so they can waste their turn if they don't have Thor. There seems to be a good deal of powerful characters on yellow (Falcon, and likely Nick Fury) which may cause this meta game to change. If a Falcon/Daken team meets another Falcon/Daken team, then you definitely want Thor, because you will have to be trying to grab the yellow before the other side does, so you should expect to accumulate a lot of yellow AP.
  • mischiefmakermischiefmaker Age Unconfirmed Posts: 932
    Meto5000 wrote:
    Level 138 Daken (Probably pretty close to Max)

    Pheromone Rage: 2x 56 Strength strike tiles
    Healing & Heat: 7%/3% 7 tiles
    Chemical Reaction: 602 base, 421 per Strike tile up to 4, 2 blue to green
    As luck would have it, I unlocked the node at L140, and after one clear, Daken is level 142.

    Strike tiles are 57 at max level.
    Base blue damage is 612-623, so probably 618 at 141.
    Scaling blue damage is 428-435, so probably 431.

    Early returns suggest 5/3/5; if the L4 is a 5% to 7% bump, that's nice, but 5% is already 290, which handles match damage and the occasional minor power just fine. Reducing blue tiles from 8 to 7 is tempting (Mawkeye's avoid triggers at 7, and how often have you seen him not avoid?), but the damage potential on Chemical Reaction is just too good, and I'm wary that in games where you'll have fewer than 8 blue tiles, you'll have fewer than 7.

    I suspect he won't play very well with Magneto (blue powers conflict and both blues typically reduce blue tiles on board, hurting Daken) or Spider Man (you want to gobble up all the blue), and that Chemical Reaction will be more of a finisher despite its speed, because casting it will hurt him. In Oscorp Heroic, he hit me with CR twice, and took something like 2k damage as a result.
  • Until Magneto and Spiderman are nerfed, regen based on blue tile should be considered a lost cause, especially on defense. Even on offense, leaving blue available for Spiderman is just asking for problems later. Blue is pretty much the most dominant color and expecting the other side to not match it is just not a feasible strategy, and if your team somehow grabbed all the blue first on defense, even taking the damage from healing & heat is still much better than giving any blue to the other side to work with.
  • Ok, i managed to see a level 142 Classic daken for the pve last stage.

    Stats are as followed (Actually the 1st post has it already) :
    HP - 5831
    Green - 67, Black - 60, Purple - 52, Blue - 12, Red - 11, Yellow - 10

    Skills @ level 5 (presumably computer build is 5/5/5) :
    Purple (Passive) - 2x 57 str strike tiles
    Black (Passive) - Never take note. But it should be 7% heal & 3% heat @ level 5
    Blue - Base damage 623, + up to 4* 435 dmg per strike tile (Total damage : 2343 if there are 4 strike tiles)

    Hope this info is useful for those building classic daken in the near future. Cheers...
  • eidehuaeidehua Age Unconfirmed Posts: 521 Critical Contributor
    Phantron wrote:
    Until Magneto and Spiderman are nerfed, regen based on blue tile should be considered a lost cause, especially on defense. Even on offense, leaving blue available for Spiderman is just asking for problems later. Blue is pretty much the most dominant color and expecting the other side to not match it is just not a feasible strategy, and if your team somehow grabbed all the blue first on defense, even taking the damage from healing & heat is still much better than giving any blue to the other side to work with.
    This idea that Daken will more likely be taking damage from heat in the current meta-- does this slightly offset the negative side of his blue converting 2 blues to green? If he is already at under the threshold and is taking damage, activating the blue and losing 2 more blue tiles does not really matter. In fact, making blue harder to collect may be better depending on your team and enemy team compositions.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    Yeah assuming the AI with Daken is 5/5/5, then blue probably goes

    Lvl 2: Dmg upgrade
    Lvl 3: 3 strike tiles removed
    Lvl 4: Dmg upgrade
    Lvl 5: 4 strike tiles removed

    At least that's how I see it. So I'm torn on how to build him, I think you have to go 5 in purple to at least feed the blue, so 5/3/3 With the other 2 skills do you go 5/4/4 or 5/3/5 or 5/5/3? I think those three will all be viable depending on your preference

    5/3/5 -- Max dmg output, max dmg received due to heat/heal
    5/5/3-- Least dmg output, most stable healing
    5/4/4--Hybrid, you max out the healing portion of Healing and Heat, and probably max out the damage per strike tile removed, you just miss out on a strike tile portion of dmg.

    So therein lies the question with Daken(Classic) do you go for max dmg output with Chemical Reaction knowing that it will hurt your dmg over time with strike tiles out since you lose 4. Basically can you replace the strike tiles taken away by Chemical Reaction in enough time that the intial dmg from Chemical Reaction still outweighs the dmg lost from strike tiles.

    And for the record as we are seeing what Daken is, I think pairing him with Falcon is a terrible idea, you pump up strike tiles just to get them destroyed? I don't think so. Lazy Thor/Daken yes, Daken/Falcon no
  • Nonce Equitaur 2Nonce Equitaur 2 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,269 Chairperson of the Boards
    I updated Daken's stats in the first post based on a reported level 138 lazy Daken. If anyone faces a level 141 Daken, please post the stats.
  • eidehua wrote:
    Phantron wrote:
    Until Magneto and Spiderman are nerfed, regen based on blue tile should be considered a lost cause, especially on defense. Even on offense, leaving blue available for Spiderman is just asking for problems later. Blue is pretty much the most dominant color and expecting the other side to not match it is just not a feasible strategy, and if your team somehow grabbed all the blue first on defense, even taking the damage from healing & heat is still much better than giving any blue to the other side to work with.
    This idea that Daken will more likely be taking damage from heat in the current meta-- does this slightly offset the negative side of his blue converting 2 blues to green? If he is already at under the threshold and is taking damage, activating the blue and losing 2 more blue tiles does not really matter. In fact, making blue harder to collect may be better depending on your team and enemy team compositions.

    What I mean by lost cause is that you shouldn't worry about the drawback of requiring blue tiles in the current meta game because blue is absolutely dominant. If Daken had an ability that simply eliminated all blue tiles without any possibility of matching anything and healing & heat is still the same, it's still a good ability because eliminating blue completely makes it much harder for anyone to attack you since almost all the degenerate combos starts with blue tiles. For offense you obviously can simply withheld this ability and on defense eliminating blue helps your team tremendously. The way I see it the penalty for healing & heat only triggers when:

    1. They already have all the blues, and you're already dead anyway.
    2. Either you got all the blues or at least nobody got them, and the health loss is a small price to pay because you're not being hit by the blue degenerate combos.
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