Oscorp: Heroic Update (1/13/17)

Nick441234

I love the change. I get that having a limited roster makes it more challenging but it also makes it so much slower to complete your clears. This is just an annoying inconvenience when free time is short as it is.

Bowgentle

nick_chicane wrote:

I love the change. I get that having a limited roster makes it more challenging but it also makes it so much slower to complete your clears. This is just an annoying inconvenience when free time is short as it is.

And that's exactly the problem 5* players have with the change.
Our clears take much longer now.

Crowl

Quebbster wrote:

Crowl wrote:

xcience wrote:

this is an unnecessary change. heroics are typically run in the off season. they offer a break from the monotony.

That simply isn't true, they tend to show up every few events, particularly after a new character release.

That's because there aren't that many Three day events - there's the Heroic, the Simulator, and Hearts of Darkness I Believe. Webbed Wonder too, but it only runs in very special ciircumstances.
New releases are never Heroic events (thankfully) and they are never seven day events (at least not for the last year), so more often than not a new release is a four day event running over the weekend, leaving Three Days for Another event. Since Heroics are overrepresented among the Three day events, they usually get to fill that particular hole.

There are obviously reasons why it happens that they are used regularly, but somebody claiming they are generally run during off-seasons clearly isn't paying attention or doesn't actually play pve regularly.

Quebbster

Crowl wrote:

Quebbster wrote:

Crowl wrote:

xcience wrote:

this is an unnecessary change. heroics are typically run in the off season. they offer a break from the monotony.

That simply isn't true, they tend to show up every few events, particularly after a new character release.

That's because there aren't that many Three day events - there's the Heroic, the Simulator, and Hearts of Darkness I Believe. Webbed Wonder too, but it only runs in very special ciircumstances.
New releases are never Heroic events (thankfully) and they are never seven day events (at least not for the last year), so more often than not a new release is a four day event running over the weekend, leaving Three Days for Another event. Since Heroics are overrepresented among the Three day events, they usually get to fill that particular hole.

There are obviously reasons why it happens that they are used regularly, but somebody claiming they are generally run during off-seasons clearly isn't paying attention or doesn't actually play pve regularly.

You got a Point there. Heroics are probably the most run events.

Nick441234

Bowgentle wrote:

nick_chicane wrote:

I love the change. I get that having a limited roster makes it more challenging but it also makes it so much slower to complete your clears. This is just an annoying inconvenience when free time is short as it is.

And that's exactly the problem 5* players have with the change.
Our clears take much longer now.

I get that this is a bad move for 5* players, but the change will in fact be welcome for a lot more people than it upsets. Under the previous limited roster, it was a pain for everyone with 1* up to 4* rosters. Now this change means its only a pain for people with 5* rosters. Its a good move for the majority of players that play this game.

Quebbster

nick_chicane wrote:

Bowgentle wrote:

nick_chicane wrote:

I love the change. I get that having a limited roster makes it more challenging but it also makes it so much slower to complete your clears. This is just an annoying inconvenience when free time is short as it is.

And that's exactly the problem 5* players have with the change.
Our clears take much longer now.

I get that this is a bad move for 5* players, but the change will in fact be welcome for a lot more people than it upsets. Under the previous limited roster, it was a pain for everyone with 1* up to 4* rosters. Now this change means its only a pain for people with 5* rosters. Its a good move for the majority of players that play this game.

Well, not the ones who actually enjoyed the challenge of putting together a team from a limited roster. I liked Heroics even back when I was a two-star player, removing the roster restrictions make them significantly less fun for me.

Noobulator

So far, experience is much worse than past heroics. Scaling is terrible like other pve events and i'm stuck using the same old 5* characters. If the message is for us to use a diverse roster, then you all shouldn't be deaf to these concerns that are widely shared.

Realstuff_NameChange

I'm a 3-4 star player with a number of 5 stars 2-3 covered in casual alliance and have friends in a few other casual alliances and this change has made heroics muuuuuuuuch better overall for me and friends.


Not only does it mean I am not faced with a horrendous grind or mean I just can't compete because I don't have the allowed 4 stars or only have a bad set of characters available, there is a much higher level of participation in my and a few friends' alliances.

The old system people would be faced with a severe lack of choice for characters and just not bother, this seems to be motivating more people to play.

Tatercat

My feedback now that we’re on the last sub of the no-restriction Heroic test: Meh. It didn’t really effect my play-through because I have a large, diverse roster. But that’s why I like Heroics, that’s what made them DIFFERENT. Because they DO reward those that took the time, the effort, and the HP, to build a large, diverse roster. I didn’t whale my way to a champed 2* & 3* roster and made room for every 4* from Logan’s Loonies. I spent 1181 days of playing the game to get there. The "majority" didn't, so why cater to them in the one event that's meant to be more challenging?

There’s a weird feeling of entitlement I get from this board sometimes, where everyone thinks they should get the top prizes (And progression rewards counts here) simply for showing up and logging in each day, in EVERY EVENT. No, you’re not. Otherwise what’s the point of having a 3-5** level? Why bother with roster slots? What’s the point of struggling for those rewards, of earning that HP, or iso, or CP, or adding those characters if in the long run, they DON’T give you a leg up on the player who hasn’t put in that same effort? Or the ones who just use the same 3 characters over and over (not talking about 5* players here, more on that below) and then throw a fit when they can’t use that crutch again.

You don’t get a title belt just for stepping in a MMA cage (just ask CM Punk). You don’t get a race marathon trophy when you quit halfway or because you weren’t in shape to finish it. You get top rewards, Placement AND Progression, by putting the work in, by growing and being patient. You can play ANY event and have fun just with the basic gameplay mechanics, win or lose. I get that losing is not fun, especially when it happens repeatedly. I’ve spent a lot of time losing events or just matches, over 1181 days, sometimes so much that I would take sabbaticals when I felt I hit a wall in my roster progression, only hitting the requirements for daily rewards. Burnout happens. But I’ve never felt that game was broke just because someone else squeezed me out of the Top 100, or because I missed progression by not having the essential character or couldn’t find the time that week. I just used what I did earn and moved forward, and because its not like you’re walking away from an event empty handed when you do.

Despite the occasional (almost regular) gameplay mechanic screw ups like Galactus not unlocking or schizo ap costs, they’ve been very good at making sure everyone gets something out of an event – breaking up the ap rewards to lower in the PVE progression, or champ levels to help make those lower character rewards still push you further. The majority CAN play heroics, and walk away with something for it.

Play until its not fun, then make do with what you earned. I still don’t get any top rewards of PVP to this day. I have to plan and time a push to get the 900 pt reward of a 4* cover and even then I quickly lose 300 pts, buts that enough for me. It’s fun, event when I only placing Top 100 and just getting 2* covers and elites tokens. I got the reward that’s appropriate to my play level & effort, and it will add to my roster. If its cover I don’t need, then I settle for the 10cp reward, and that helps too. Its only recently I’ve been able to do that too, in the last year. Before then, I just aimed for the 300 pt event token if I could do it, and called it a day on the PVP.

For Heroics, even when I had a limited roster, and couldn’t do all the essentials, I still enjoyed them for, you know, the PUZZLE aspect of making my limited roster work in that select environment. And not just when ”good” characters were boosted chosen for it. Its meant to be a challenge above the norm.

If you’re not having fun doing even a set amount within your roster’s means, like the first clear of nodes in a PVE (just 1x) and whatever you can in the essential nodes, then you’re basic problem may just be with this type of game itself, and in that case top end rewards aren’t going to change your fun.

Anyways, I had no idea that 5*’s level rosters loved the Heroics until this thread. Good to know and I’m glad to keep working on my 4* roster then in the meantime. They really need to work on testing with 5* rosters, and its frankly weird that they don’t considering they could just boost someone on the back end to do so.

There is one thing that was taken away from this heroic, and it’s something that I wish would make its way into every PVE: the Reinforcements specific to each sub, where certain additional characters were only boosted in that sub. That was fun surprise in Heroics, and they added a variety that I think would help on normal PVE events, especially the 7 day ones where even a guaranteed winning team can be a drag to play after 5 days in a row. I hope those aren’t lost as they go forward.

Nick441234

Tatercat wrote:

My feedback now that we’re on the last sub of the no-restriction Heroic test: Meh. It didn’t really effect my play-through because I have a large, diverse roster. But that’s why I like Heroics, that’s what made them DIFFERENT. Because they DO reward those that took the time, the effort, and the HP, to build a large, diverse roster. I didn’t whale my way to a champed 2* & 3* roster and made room for every 4* from Logan’s Loonies. I spent 1181 days of playing the game to get there. The "majority" didn't, so why cater to them in the one event that's meant to be more challenging?

Not necessarily true. I have every 2*, 3* & 4* yet the Heroics were still so slow and frustrating. The selection of characters available, 9 times out of 10, had no synergy and usually all fought over the same colours. That is not fun, that is just a slow boring few days just trying to get through without using too many health packs a long the way.

Arphaxad

Since I have no 5* of higher level than my 4*s I was unaware of the scaling issue. Here is a good suggestion, limit 5*s from heroics. Lock out 5*s during heroics, then the scaling should be fine. There, problem solved.

Stax the Foyer

Tatercat wrote:

There’s a weird feeling of entitlement I get from this board sometimes, where everyone thinks they should get the top prizes (And progression rewards counts here) simply for showing up and logging in each day, in EVERY EVENT. No, you’re not. Otherwise what’s the point of having a 3-5** level? Why bother with roster slots? What’s the point of struggling for those rewards, of earning that HP, or iso, or CP, or adding those characters if in the long run, they DON’T give you a leg up on the player who hasn’t put in that same effort? Or the ones who just use the same 3 characters over and over (not talking about 5* players here, more on that below) and then throw a fit when they can’t use that crutch again.

You don’t get a title belt just for stepping in a MMA cage (just ask CM Punk). You don’t get a race marathon trophy when you quit halfway or because you weren’t in shape to finish it. You get top rewards, Placement AND Progression, by putting the work in, by growing and being patient. You can play ANY event and have fun just with the basic gameplay mechanics, win or lose. I get that losing is not fun, especially when it happens repeatedly. I’ve spent a lot of time losing events or just matches, over 1181 days, sometimes so much that I would take sabbaticals when I felt I hit a wall in my roster progression, only hitting the requirements for daily rewards. Burnout happens. But I’ve never felt that game was broke just because someone else squeezed me out of the Top 100, or because I missed progression by not having the essential character or couldn’t find the time that week. I just used what I did earn and moved forward, and because its not like you’re walking away from an event empty handed when you do.

I think it's important to look from the perspective of a new player, especially a new player who began before CLs. When you and I were starting out, to the extent that starter brackets existed, there wasn't much disparity between the top placement rewards and the teams people were using to get them.

For people who started in the past year, and played harder than average, they were able to receive some of the very best rewards in the game, winning 4* covers and CP pretty easily for as long as they were in starter brackets. There's a massive disparity between the team you're using and the rewards you can win, especially if you were spending CP as you earned it. The starter brackets condition people to think that everyone can win the top placement prizes if they just work pretty hard at it. This is not to downplay the significant issues with the 4* transition, but winning some of your first 4* covers comes pretty easy.

As you move on, you're competing in tougher and tougher brackets for the same rewards. But you don't realize that right away, you just see the same effort yielding worse results, and now you're competing with much more developed rosters, and people who really optimize their PvE play.

That massive dropoff of the reward/effort ratio has to hurt. We didn't have to go through it as much, it was a gradual downturn to the crushing reality of veteran brackets. From that point of view, I'm very sympathetic to people who want to stave that off in any way possible. We're on the other side of it, and have been dealing with the reality of the PvE endgame, so we see how it's inevitable, but they haven't had their spirits broken yet.

I think the CL changes will help that somewhat, as people no longer get that burst of insane rewards, but these expectations are the result of the recent game design more than anything.

NoUpside

Realcrap wrote:

I'm a 3-4 star player with a number of 5 stars 2-3 covered in casual alliance and have friends in a few other casual alliances and this change has made heroics muuuuuuuuch better overall for me and friends.


Not only does it mean I am not faced with a horrendous grind or mean I just can't compete because I don't have the allowed 4 stars or only have a bad set of characters available, there is a much higher level of participation in my and a few friends' alliances.

The old system people would be faced with a severe lack of choice for characters and just not bother, this seems to be motivating more people to play.

Almost the exact situation here, and I'm loving this Heroic. I enjoyed the other format, as well, once I got a bigger roster, of course. Scaling gets a little crazy in some nodes, but I really, REALLY dig it.

keitterman

IMO Everything I'm reading here, for or against the change, points to an issue with the PvE layout in general.

People that didn't like the old heroic
- didn't like not being able to participate due to a limited roster
- didn't like being forced to play with teams that had no synergy
- being forced to spend ISO on champs they may not have wanted to level up yet

People that liked the old way
- liked that with a limited roster, they weren't punished for having lvl 450's, and could actually play with their lower level champs.
- The limited roster forced them to be creative about what team they picked, since everyone had to, they weren't imposing an artificial crutch on their ranking.
- The old way broke up the mundane repetitiveness of the game (if ever so slightly)

Anyway, to me this just points to a bigger issue that the PvE aspect isn't really that fun anyway. We all like collecting characters and the current PvE is one way to get ISO and covers, but IMO, all of the above opinions are caused by the time-sensitive-grindiness of the game. Change heroic, leave it, there's no real reason to level up your characters (Only viable strat seems to be to level up one single 5* to max, and never anyone else past some personally acceptable threshold ***).

I think PvE should be overhauled in every way. It shouldn't take a few hours each day to clear the board, I shouldn't be racing against 1k other people on who can clear it the fastest for a given time start, I shouldn't be punished for progressing in the game, not should I be locked out of play for 3-4 days if I've not got a full roster.

I could list a ton of things I would personally do to fix it, but this is already long enough.


*** Near as I can tell, the scaling calculation is your top three champs average. Example, I have 420 Black Bolt, 315 Silver Surfer, and 279 Devil Dino (Avg = 338. The last pin of a PvE board hits at about that level.

Tatercat

Stax the Foyer wrote:

I think it's important to look from the perspective of a new player, especially a new player who began before CLs. When you and I were starting out, to the extent that starter brackets existed, there wasn't much disparity between the top placement rewards and the teams people were using to get them.

You could argue the new player perspective is sometimes the only perspective the devs seem to consider ( I kid because I love, red name signatures ), but you do raise a good point that it is a different experience for people from the first year of the game vs player in their first year right now. But, as keitterman touches on in his above post, that’s more of an issue with MPQ as a whole, rather than the Heroic situation and the constraints of its usual structure.

Guys, I get that’s it easier now and therefore more fun to play and less frustrating. But I would find basketball easier, more fun and less frustrating, if they got rid of the dribbling/traveling rule as well as letting me foul people without penalty. For some, the constraints ARE the sport of it, and this event type is the one place we get it.

(Purely hypothetical example up there, I’m too fat and hate basketball anyway like some hate Heroics. But that doesn’t mean I think basketball should change just to suit people who feel like me).

jeppic

First time posting (I guess this change bugged me enough to post***).

I'm seeing a lot of 5*, 4*, 3* roster talk, I don't know the jargon, but I'm guessing I'm transitioning to a 4*? Anyways, I've both enjoyed and hated heroic due to the limited roster (since, I've been a 1*, if that's a thing). However, the great thing about heroic was that it was different, it was harder, and it forced you to experiment. Some of my now favourite combos, came out of playing heroic. It's also given me new appreciation for characters I'd written off previously, or new ideas for how to use them.

I get that not everybody liked (in fact sometimes I didn't), but it provided variety. Whatever you do, making it the same as everything else probably isn't the solution.

***The fact that I haven't posted before, is a testament to how good the previous updates have been (at least imo).

Dormammu

keitterman wrote:

Change heroic, leave it, there's no real reason to level up your characters.

This. This is a core problem of PVE. If the best you've got rostered is every 3-star at level 150 I would argue that PVE is a lot more enjoyable, and easier, than if you have every 5-star max-champed.

And I like PVE, but I don't often play for placement - just progression. I like taking it at my own pace without having to worry about how much time I'm taking or if I'm going to be retaliated against 10x during my match. But placement is still flawed.

I can't help but think the introduction of SCL was a wasted opportunity to address this.

xcience

This change is obviously very hard to talk about on an open forum where everyone is comeing from a very different perspective.

The elder game players have been through every aspect of the game but lack the knowledge of how it feels to be a new player in the current game.
The new players only know whats hard to them and have no idea just how hard it use to be and how much honest work has been put into the game to make it easier for them.

So the real question here is how can we come to the middle ground. How can we make the new players feel included while keeping heroics a unique experience. How can we allow elder player to use their skillfully crafted teams rather than just their brute force. How can we eliminate the fear of leveling characters.

I personally think {from an elder gamer perspective} think that heroics have classically been roster checks. They have been around way longer than 5* and allowed the players that favored divers rosters over leveling only core teams a chance to shine. They allow the more creative among us to come up with interesting team combinations that we otherwise may not have tried, and outside the game an opportunity to help out our alliance mates through line chat with team help. This outside component of mentorship will take a hit in our community, which for some of us, is a strong driving force to keep playing.

I really appreciate that some steps are being made to try to address heroics. I just don't think that this is the right way to go about it. Including new players could be as easy as simply giving them 3\3\3 max level for that amount of covers loaners at each star level up to 4 which in turn will be boosted. This will give the new players something to look forward to as they get to try out the bread and butter of each free char, while also allowing the deep well build rosters the ability to continue trying out fun builds.

Please consider that right now by doing this your are assimilating rather than diversifying. Your taking away the feeling of mastery and mentorship of a craft which is a core motivation.

I really hope they nail this cause there are several unrelated issues i have with this game that put me very close to dropping it. I really don't want this to be the death blow for me. heroics really were something i personally looked forward too. please don't kill them.

MarkersMake

Tatercat wrote:

I didn’t whale my way to a champed 2* & 3* roster and made room for every 4* from Logan’s Loonies. I spent 1181 days of playing the game to get there. The "majority" didn't, so why cater to them in the one event that's meant to be more challenging?

The one event? 1181 days and you've never seen the Gauntlet? Or any boss event, ever? Or participated in PVP...at all, apparently?

Tatercat wrote:

There’s a weird feeling of entitlement I get from this board sometimes, where everyone thinks they should get the top prizes (And progression rewards counts here) simply for showing up and logging in each day, in EVERY EVENT.

That's called projection. The problem is actually with you. Most people think they should be able to *participate* in events - not be effectively locked out of them. And FYI, anyone with a lesser roster is working HARDER (way more time for clears) than you (noob brackets excluded, of course) for lesser rewards (progression is almost impossible to achieve with limited rosters, and placement is utterly out of reach as a result). So complaining about entitlement in others is particularly hilarious.

Tatercat wrote:

You don’t get a title belt just for stepping in a MMA cage (just ask CM Punk). You don’t get a race marathon trophy when you quit halfway or because you weren’t in shape to finish it.

Total strawman. People want to participate, not get trophies just for showing up. You want a lockout event that you have to build up your roster to participate in? Awesome, here's Gauntlet. Or Boss events, if you prefer. Or the entire world of PvP, until you've got a champed 3* roster at least. Not heroics, which are run all the freaking time.

Tatercat wrote:

If you’re not having fun doing even a set amount within your roster’s means, like the first clear of nodes in a PVE (just 1x) and whatever you can in the essential nodes, then you’re basic problem may just be with this type of game itself, and in that case top end rewards aren’t going to change your fun.

Would you stop with the strawman argument? It's not about top end rewards - it's about being able to participate at all. If you only *have* 3 or 4 of the unlocked characters, and they have no synergy, you will wipe repeatedly. You will run out of health packs in no time. PvE, in case you don't know (and despite 1181 days played you don't seem to) is the entire game for new players. THE ENTIRE GAME. it is the ONLY way to improve your roster to the point that you can participate in pvp at any sort of competitive level (and by that, I don't even mean win the 3* cover). Heroics run all the time. All the time. All the time. All. The. Time. And new players get effectively locked out of their *only* mode of play every time it happens.

Tatercat wrote:

Anyways, I had no idea that 5*’s level rosters loved the Heroics until this thread. Good to know and I’m glad to keep working on my 4* roster then in the meantime. They really need to work on testing with 5* rosters, and its frankly weird that they don’t considering they could just boost someone on the back end to do so.

Agreed, 100%.

Calnexin

I like it, but it's a change I'm not sure needs to happen.

The Heroics are largely a pain because the selected characters don't synergize well. You often can't even come up with a rainbow unless you bring a 2*, which is silly in 4* scaling. It's a different kind of challenge, because we're forced to work with the limited set. While aggravating, it provides an asymmetric opportunity for those who wouldn't necessarily be able to compete with top-tier rosters in a regular event.