** Black Widow (Original) ** [PRE 2014-06]

Unknown

Marquoz wrote:

If Hood and OBW had identical health (and frankly, they almost do), I'd still fear Hood way more. Why? Because he's stealing pretty much every turn and does it from any color. You can't deny him by matching purple yourself (like you can with OBW) and you can't just kill him before he fires his steal (because he fires it constantly). He's a guaranteed AP leech who slows any fight against his team way down.

Eh, Hood has better AP stealing capabilities but it's not guaranteed. The difference is made up by Hood having 2 other pretty subpar abilities. But I agree that at the same health, Hood is still better but not by much.

kaepamerica7

SirKopath wrote:

Am I the only one who sees OBW and thinks, sweet, a team with a 3K health character? easy points

Before you can take 3k she will steal your AP and heal herself unsless you use a bunch of boosts in which you have a fighting chance

Unknown

No just no. She is the only good healer in this game.

Unknown

MikeyMan wrote:

No just no. She is the only good healer in this game.

You've never heard of Spider-man, I take it? His heal is great--far more effective than OBW's when combined with the web tiles spammed by his stun. His stun is so overpowered that it has to be nerfed. And he has good defense tile creation abilities as well.

Unknown

kaepamerica7 wrote:

SirKopath wrote:

Am I the only one who sees OBW and thinks, sweet, a team with a 3K health character? easy points

Before you can take 3k she will steal your AP and heal herself unsless you use a bunch of boosts in which you have a fighting chance

Not if you have OBW yourself.

Unknown

I think it comes down to where you are in the game. If you're in 2* land, she's a huge threat, IMO.

Unknown

altlover85 wrote:

I think it comes down to where you are in the game. If you're in 2* land, she's a huge threat, IMO.

Sure, but 3*'s just laugh at her. I certainly do. My level 141 Patch takes her out on turn 3 or 4 most of the time, before she accomplishes anything at all. Hood, on the other hand, is vastly more difficult to kill and fuels the enemy team's attacks with the AP he steals from me while I try to kill him. The only 2* character that I dislike fighting with my 3* team is Ares, who is both tanky enough and damaging enough to be annoying.

Unknown

SirKopath wrote:

Am I the only one who sees OBW and thinks, sweet, a team with a 3K health character? easy points

You're not alone. I actively seek out teams with OBW because she's so easy to squish before accomplishing anything. My level 141 Patch usually kills her within the first 3-5 turns. The only 2* character my 3* team doesn't like to see is Ares.

Spoit

Eddiemon wrote:

So our new running philosophy is 'please nerf the strongest 2 star because they are the strongest and so I have to use them because they are strong'?

That's recursively destructive and never actually ends. Was thorverine, now OBW, next will be Ares, then Thor again, then Daken. Then moonstone.

Will you feel a sense of accomplishment when you are finally complaining that Cap and Bullseye are too powerful and need a nerf?

I thought that was the exact reasoning behind funbalacing in the first place?

EDIT: wait, turn 3 to 4? You don't bother getting any other colors before turning on the danger zone?

Spoit

jozier wrote:

IceIX wrote:

Marquoz wrote:

This is seriously ridiculous. I intentionally look for PvP teams with OBW because she's so incredibly easy to crush before she can do any harm to my team. A high level Hood is WAY scarier.

I said that months ago while most players were talking about how useless he was. He's pretty amazing.

At the time most people probably didn't have his 5 blue covers. Also he is SUPER squishy, but that is of course balanced by one of the most underrated and dangerous abilities in the game.

blues were easy. It's the Yellows being only the top 2, and you needing 5 of them for the ability to be worthwhile, that kills it. (and the whole bugged lighting round points thing)

over_clocked

I personally know a guy who does quite well without fielding oBW. He has most of her covers, but doesn't level her until she's complete. I guess the reasoning is 'Why steal & heal and do tiny damage when I can Feral Claws/Sunder/Wind Storm everything to bits instead?'. He does wish to use her rather sooner than later because with the increasing damage received in the game you often want a healer, but she's by no means a required character otherwise. If you have your own oBW or anyone doing damage and your team doesn't consist of the squishiest utility characters imaginable (mStorm, mBW & Magneto MN), you shouldn't have much trouble when dealing with her.

KaioShinDE

mbpm1 wrote:

More like, please buff the other characters.

Not the solution to this particular problem at all since there are no alternative healers. There is no one else to buff here...

Spoit

Phantron wrote:

I don't know why people are always obsessed with her healing ability. The offense/defense she brings with Aggressive Recon is far more important than her heal, and that's also why she's hard to stop. Blue is probably the best color in the game right now, so nobody's going to concede blue to OBW so it's easy to 'deny' her blue. The only characters who can make use of purple that are competitive is Magneto classic and OBW. It's pointless to talk about countering a character with the same one, so you're left with only Magneto as a response to OBW. Otherwise, each time you match purple you're just skipping your turn.

Healing is a lot more important now that they shifted the meta away from the heyday of rag/thor/wolvie 5 minute matches, since with the much longer match lengths, you're taking more incidental damage from matches, much less from the abilities you don't manage to deny/the inevitable cascades/etc.

If you get caught up with preventing blue, you'll let her get some purple. And once the enemy is able to pull off an aggressive recon, it can very easily snowball from there. Seriously, I think you are consistently overstating the ability of the boards to be able to deny the enemy. Like every other match I get a board where I'm stuck with only one option, that lines the enemy up to get exactly the color he needs, if not a whole fresh board.

GumisK

I'm getting the impression that the constant **** about OBW comes mainly from the fact that she plays differently than other popular 2* characters. Thor, Wolverine, Ares - they're all plain and simple, just good old thrashing. You don't really need any skill to control them, neither to defeat them, as it is only a matter of outdamaging the enemy team. With OBW on the opposing team (and on yours as well), there is real planning and strategy involved. A player who's just transitioned into 2* territory might be shocked at first, but hey, that's how you play the game. You play around certain characters, you try to minimize the potential of the other team while getting the most out of yours. You choose targets wisely, plan a few moves ahead, gather AP in such a way to chain your moves into combos in one turn, and so on. Players with a 3* roster don't fear OBW for two reasons, not just one. Of course, they have more powerful characters at hand, which helps a lot, but they're also accustomed to playing more strategically, as they're facing really dangerous and powerful characters on a daily basis, and they learn how to neutralize them better. I'd be devastated if D3 would suddenly start nerfing support characters, because that way the game would turn into mindless tile matching reuslting in the lower-health team dying. I hate such a vision, what's best in the game for me is the complexity - take it away, and it's just another Bejeweled clone; and the complexity comes from having such varied characters, which means there is an Original Black Widow, a Spider-Man, a Hood.

Unknown

GumisK wrote:

I'm getting the impression that the constant **** about OBW comes mainly from the fact that she plays differently than other popular 2* characters. Thor, Wolverine, Ares - they're all plain and simple, just good old thrashing. You don't really need any skill to control them, neither to defeat them, as it is only a matter of outdamaging the enemy team. With OBW on the opposing team (and on yours as well), there is real planning and strategy involved. A player who's just transitioned into 2* territory might be shocked at first, but hey, that's how you play the game. You play around certain characters, you try to minimize the potential of the other team while getting the most out of yours. You choose targets wisely, plan a few moves ahead, gather AP in such a way to chain your moves into combos in one turn, and so on. Players with a 3* roster don't fear OBW for two reasons, not just one. Of course, they have more powerful characters at hand, which helps a lot, but they're also accustomed to playing more strategically, as they're facing really dangerous and powerful characters on a daily basis, and they learn how to neutralize them better. I'd be devastated if D3 would suddenly start nerfing support characters, because that way the game would turn into mindless tile matching reuslting in the lower-health team dying. I hate such a vision, what's best in the game for me is the complexity - take it away, and it's just another Bejeweled clone; and the complexity comes from having such varied characters, which means there is an Original Black Widow, a Spider-Man, a Hood.

I don't think it's just a matter of planning, play style or strategy involved. She's just crazy good in comparison to the other available options.
Her synergy with strike tiles on the passive alone is a huge, it makes her interesting even on *** teams. Then she's one of only 2 healers. Has a really good passive and active AP steal. A counter to countdown tiles. And as icing on the cake complementary colors to the most popular ** heroes.
Unless another ** supporter with comparable features comes along she's a must have in any mid tier team.

Unknown

Marquoz wrote:

The only 2* character my 3* team doesn't like to see is Ares.

Why that? Your Patch should love his green and has enough health to tank anything he throws at you.

GumisK

finwe wrote:

She's just crazy good in comparison to the other available options.

There are no other options. She is the only healer/stealer in the whole game. Her set of abilities makes her unique, and that was more or less my point. She's different, she stands out from the crowd, and that's why you want her on the team - you have noone else to choose from, even if look up in 3* list. Spidey heals even better, but doesn't steal AP. The Hood steals AP better, yet he can't heal. OBW is configured in a way no other character is, and I like it. The game needs more characters like her, and I don't mean literal copies, performing exactly the same moves - I mean supporters, utility characters giving the player a tool set to complement raw damage dealing. For now, OBW may seem broken, as there are not much support characters at all to choose, let alone 2*. That's not a reason to nerf her, though, just get us some more roster diversity, not another lazy tank/dps, we have a ton of those already.

Unknown

OTERSEY wrote:

She squishy even for one star team.

LOL indeed, I wonder what * team you would send against say maxed OBW/IM35/mStorm and just sit back to win easy points.
Or did you mean -/OBW/- against the 3 *s?

NighteyesGrisu

IceIX wrote:

Marquoz wrote:

This is seriously ridiculous. I intentionally look for PvP teams with OBW because she's so incredibly easy to crush before she can do any harm to my team. A high level Hood is WAY scarier.

I said that months ago while most players were talking about how useless he was. He's pretty amazing.

yes, you totally need to nerf him

j/k

seriously, there's nothing wrong with OBW. She's good, but with the proper tactics you can easily dispatch her early. Even though I have her maxed, I don't use her that often anymore, and an OBW in the enemy team certainly won't keep me from attacking them.

Unknown

Devs, hear me! I demand a roster full of butter knives! Let all character design strive to be like Moonstone!Take the edge off of every thing that has utility!

Then the greatest determining factor in success will be the luck of the cascades. Which I will then complain is unfairly balanced against the player, because I have to rely on them more to have repeated success and I have no concept of confirmation bias or rational thinking!