Character Rebalance Plan

Arckon

Trust us we'd like to use somebody besides OML and PHX, D3 please send me the remaining BSS GG Bolt and IM46 covers I need to champ them and I'll be happy to give you more team diversity in 5* PVP.

jobob

Blahahah wrote:

They don't, which is why I said "that is beyond the point.". Yes OML is common, but it's because he is strong enough that anyone and everyone can use him, and for a vast majority of players, they are worse off for not doing so.

The exact same thing could be said about Phoenix.

The claims aren't completely unsupported, because Jobob has verified that OML would be the one he kept out of all of them if he had to choose. You don't just pick a "He isn't that good maybe top 5 at best" character over all of the others unless there is some big lapse in scaling. OML would be the character he picked. For a majority of people, OML is the one they would pick too. The problem isn't his strength, as I've said lots of times, it's the fact that 9/10 times he is the best option.

I agree that he's the best 5* to start the 4 -> 5* transition. But you are making way too much of a leap from me saying "he's the one I would take to start the transition" to using me as evidence that he's far and away better than the other 5*. I mean, if I could only have one piece of furniture in my house, it would probably be a couch because I can sit on it, eat on it, and sleep on it... but that doesn't mean that it's "far and away better" than a kitchen table, a recliner, and a comfy bed.

Also... What do you mean by saying it's a "fact" that "9/10 times he's the best option." ? That's not a fact. In fact, it's completely false. Now, if you're in the 4 -> 5* transition, and you have SS/Phx/OML covered an no one else... then, sure, 9/10 times Phx & OML are your best options. So what? That speaks more about SS than OML. And is Phx overpowered too, since she's the best option 9/10 times in that transition case as well? Her healing is even better than OML in some ways... she can come back from a 100k hit in 1 turn, OML is downed for good.

I don't disagree, because his passive was the first thing people focused on. The idea of charged tiles and the passive was a topic of discussion up until the numbers dropped. Thats when people started looking into yellow and green. The passive was always on the table, but I recall distinctly that it wasn't until people mentioned dipping with OML strikes that people took it with any weight. I remember people even debating if he was around Hulk tier. (Also admittedly it took me a second to realize you were referring to Black Bolt and not Bruce Banner)

I have run Black Bolt quite a bit (I really like him), but I don't run him with OML. So... maybe you just know way more about the 5* game than I do.

GG, yes. BSS, specically, no. There's several posts on the forums suggesting a lot of things, but I'm doubtful that any of them honestly put the assumption that BSS is solid on his own out there with no regard to, say, how he handles OML and PHX which is the most common team out there. But yeah, no, GG is actually ludicrously strong. I'd believe him for being the best 5* if the AI weren't terrible with him.

I will honestly say that BSS is solid on his own, even without regard to how he handles OML/PHx. But he's all the better against strike tile users. I think part of your problem here is that you are looking at OML in a vacuum... and the game isn't played (other than CoTT) in a 1 v 1 setting. You have to factor in the teammates and opponents. 1 v 1... OML is very good (unless it's 1 v 1 vs BSS and then he gets murdered)... but we're talking 3 v 3.

The problem is I'm not referring to the 5* meta, though it's good to know he dominates that too. OML dominates pretty much all but the 1* meta, maybe early 2* meta. The moment someone gets their hands on an OML yellow cover, the game changes completely for them. 3* players are using OML as a benchmark, I probably don't need to point out that such a thing never happened for SS or PHX or BSS. Even at that relatively low level of play, OML decides if you can compete for top placement or not, because not having him (or his yellow, specifically) more or less decides if you can compete with people who do. No character should have that kind of sway.

Again, if all you are saying is that his power curve ramps up faster than other 5*... I'm with you. That's a legit complaint. At 450, he slots in nicely somewhere in the top half of 5*, but at 1/1/1, he's head and shoulders above the others.

The problem isn't him being the strongest, for the eleventh time. I'm fully aware that other characters are stronger than him, in terms of numbers it's not surprising. The problem isn't him in terms of the 5* tier, which comprises what... 0.01% of the playerbase MAYBE at the most. The problem is that OML dictates if you can compete or not long before you should even be concerned about 5* tier. For a lot of players, that yellow cover means the difference between top 10 and top 100. You're right that, given time, everyone would be on equal covers and maybe, just maybe, OML will only be on half as many teams rather than 80% of them. Until then, the fact of the matter is that OML's healing and power at one cover is probably equal in value to most other characters at 7 to 8 covers. That's a problem.

When you have entire subsections of people whom lack this one cover and thus are heavily disadvantaged against those that do, that is a problem.

OML doesn't NEED to be healing that much. He doesn't NEED that power early on. Nerfing his healing to make getting/not getting him less decisive would be almost a non-factor for top level players whom, by your claim, don't even need the character. Changing his aim to be a "transform him for value" rather than a "sit here and gimme swords kthx" would make him interesting and a tactical choice, and not a mandatory one outside of choice situations. The problem lies in the fact that he is the BEST 5* to have, even if he isn't the strongest 5* at 13 covers. He only needs one to change the way you and everyone around you experiences the game. That is a problem.

I can agree... he needs to be nerfed at 1-3 covers, buffed at 4-5 covers. Then he fits better into both the 3/4* game, and the 5* game.

Trilateralus

There's one very simple solution to the OML problem that no one has mentioned. Make his healing burst.

Blahahah

jobob wrote:

Again, if all you are saying is that his power curve ramps up faster than other 5*... I'm with you. That's a legit complaint. At 450, he slots in nicely somewhere in the top half of 5*, but at 1/1/1, he's head and shoulders above the others.

I can agree... he needs to be nerfed at 1-3 covers, buffed at 4-5 covers. Then he fits better into both the 3/4* game, and the 5* game.

The rest of the points we could go back and forth on forever. Instead, I'll focus on these two because they actually move our conversation forward and isn't just me splitting hairs trying to get my point across, and you explaining how I'm probably wrong, and then me saying you aren't understanding me and so on so forth.

The thing is he doesn't even need 1/1/1. You can run 0/1/1 and he is still a monster.

I feel like he should be nerfed at all 5 covers, but his transformation ability buffed. As it stands, his yellow is lackluster even when transformed. Making it so that morphing him is worth it might be a better move. Hell, make it so his healing only works when he is transformed and you've made popping his claws suddenly really good. Just swap his yellow from transforming with his yellow before popping and he could be a lot better I think.

My problem isn't just that he skews results on the bottom level, it's that popping his claws barring an emergency never seems to be worth it. He seems like half a character, when he could be much better and much stronger with a priority given to "This is a guy you want to push over the edge". That's just me though, it feels like a waste that I've seen players use him and they've done basically everything in their power to not pop his claws.

Blahahah

Trilateralus wrote:

There's one very simple solution to the OML problem that no one has mentioned. Make his healing burst.

You, my good sir, are a genius.
Make it true healing at 5 covers. Boom, done print and send.

revskip

Blahahah wrote:

As it stands, his yellow is lackluster even when transformed. Making it so that morphing him is worth it might be a better move. Hell, make it so his healing only works when he is transformed and you've made popping his claws suddenly really good. Just swap his yellow from transforming with his yellow before popping and he could be a lot better I think.

That would immediately make him way less ubiquitous and is exactly the sort of nerf I'd like to see. Making his transformation a real goal rather than a pleasant bonus would go a long way towards bringing him in line with some of the other 5* characters in usage.

True healing is kinda OP at every level because of the relative scarcity of healthpacks, I leaned 2* Daken and 2* Wolverine throughout my 2* transition and have leaned heavily on Patch and 3* Daken in my 3* transition. Why? Because they vastly reduce my healthpack consumption. That they work really well with some of the lesser used characters in their tier is also a sweet bonus. Most people don't think too highly of Moonstone for instance. I love it when she's buffed and I can use her with Patch. Same goes for Daredevil. And I'll take Loki team ups all day with Patch and save a ton of healthpacks grinding both PVP and PVE.

If OML only had the true healing aspect when he transformed it would change the entire approach to how he is used and would make him far less dangerous at 0/1/0 all the way up to 5/5/3.

jtmagee

Can you guys make a poll for each tier and ask which characters need tweaking according to your clientele? That was you can gauge on who to start.

I will be making my own recommendations for each character and putting it in the suggestions box.

Also more 2*'s, please. Implement them like you did with Bullseye's Green power.

Vhailorx

OML is not dangerous at all at 0/1/0 unless you have a 1* roster.

I agree that true healing is in tension with the health mechanics of this game. That's why true/burst healing was implemented. To the extent that oml has benefits from true healing, he is basically the same as all the other true healers, should they all get burst healing?

But I don't think switching to burst healing will have a large impact on his ubiquity. He will still be a strong a 5*, and one that players are more likely to have well covered. Why would they stop using him and switch to weaker alternatives (like less covered 5*s or 4*s)? And on defense he will be unchanged.

Sure, people may use him less for grinding trivial nodes and climbing in pvp, but that will only have a very small impact on competition. I guess the way i see it us that oml is less of a competitive advantage for high level play than he is a quality of life improvement for grinding.

I don't see any reason to make player quality of life worse. And what ompetitive issues do exist seem likely to solve themselves as players get deeper, more diverse 5* rosters.

Blahahah

Vhailorx wrote:

OML is not dangerous at all at 0/1/0 unless you have a 1* roster.

I agree that true healing is in tension with the health mechanics of this game. That's why true/burst healing was implemented. To the extent that oml has benefits from true healing, he is basically the same as all the other true healers, should they all get burst healing?

But I don't think switching to burst healing will have a large impact on his ubiquity. He will still be a strong a 5*, and one that players are more likely to have well covered. Why would they stop using him and switch to weaker alternatives (like less covered 5*s or 4*s)? And on defense he will be unchanged.

Sure, people may use him less for grinding trivial nodes and climbing in pvp, but that will only have a very small impact on competition.

What are you talking about PvP? OML is awful on defense.
I'm talking PvE, where 0/1/0 OML basically decides if you exist as a threat or not from tiers 2-5*.

Vhailorx

Blahahah wrote:

What are you talking about PvP? OML is awful on defense.
I'm talking PvE, where 0/1/0 OML basically decides if you exist as a threat or not from tiers 2-5*.

I have a 0/1/0 oml; I am a 4* tier player; he is a non-factor in my competitive results. Please explain why my experience is diametrically opposed to your postulate.

Also, what does it mean to exist as a threat in pve? Do you really think that people regularly ride 0/1/0 oml's to top 10 finishes?

Quest34

Blahahah

What is your ranking of 5 stars?

Linkster79

Be generous with the buffs and take it easy with the needs.

I haven't read all pages so don't know if this has been suggested. How about a way to reward a diverse roster by actually designing bonuses around them? For example there could be a node featuring Brotherhood Of Mutants and if you clear it with a team of all X-Men get a bonus on top if the usual rewards, or even a star based versus event where your team may not exceed 5 stars across all 3 team members. I think that this would cause less player rage after seeing their favourites no longer be as useful.

Blahahah

Vhailorx wrote:

Blahahah wrote:

What are you talking about PvP? OML is awful on defense.
I'm talking PvE, where 0/1/0 OML basically decides if you exist as a threat or not from tiers 2-5*.

I have a 0/1/0 oml; I am a 4* tier player; he is a non-factor in my competitive results. Please explain why my experience is diametrically opposed to your postulate.

Also, what does it mean to exist as a threat in pve? Do you really think that people ride 0/1/0 oml's to top 10 finishes?

I could probably pull any number of quotes from any number of topics bemoaning the fact that they don't have oml's yellow and thus are disadvantaged.

Rather, I'll bring to light a different point. From what you've explained to me, you're very deep into the 4* transition to where one might say you're practically done with it.
Now tell me, what percentage of players do you believe are at that exact same level? Probably not very many.

Now, let's look at OML's relative strength for someone who say isn't at that point. He provides full ability usage worth of damage off of his basic matches, has about as much health as a medium body fully leveled 3*, heals for about 700 a turn, tanks 3 very important and impressive colors, has no requirement aside from friendship to get full value, works well with anyone, doesn't hog AP or clash, only needs one cover to be functional... This is an 0/1/0 OML, by the by, he only gets better from there.

Now compare him to any number of other character you would use at say... the 2* level. Even at 0/1/0, he is probably your best character. Lets move on to the 3* level. Again, you can form an entire team around him and use basically no health packs versus someone who doesn't have him and thus cannot grind anywhere near as efficiently.

Assuming you have multiple maxed out 4*s, yeah a 0/1/0 OML might not be the best option but unless your roster is all top tier (Lets say you have one like mine on this account where I only have 3 4*s, one of which is JG and the other two are moderately low tier), he still presents himself as both a viable and arguably superior option to some of your choices. Again, a person with a similar roster but no OML is at a disadvantage and is using roughly 4 healthpacks to my... maybe 1 or 2.

In 5* tier, yeah a 0/1/0 OML won't do you much good, but as with the 4* and 5* tiers it's assumed that he probably isn't a 0/1/0. 0/1/0 is the starting point to where you build on him, but yeah okay 0/1/0 won't do much against a 3/5/5 phoenix. You got me there.

Still, I'd hope you can see my point. You, my good sir, and your experience, it isn't the same as most people. You get to be in a place where OML doesn't decide if you get those covers or not. For the rest of the community below that point, the lot of us who are, some of them are tired of losing placements and losing chances to grow simply because they didn't score that odd 1% chance of getting yellow OML's cover. If there is any hope to make the meta and tiers change in the way they are suggesting, the only option is to make OML a character who functions at one yellow about as well as BSS functions with one green.

Blahahah

Quest34 wrote:

Blahahah

What is your ranking of 5 stars?

Currently as stand-alone?

GG
Bolt
Iron Man
BSS
Phoenix
OML
Hulk
SS
Black Widow
Captain America

Though you could probably swap around Hulk, SS, and Widow. I think SS is great but I'm biased towards battery characters.

fun_and_gun

since my only experience with 5* land is with oml, I can only make this request for 4* and below...please do not nerf anyone. I believe the top tier characters are fine the way they are. most of the others could definitely use the buff to make them more appealing.

Bowgentle

Blahahah wrote:

Quest34 wrote:

Blahahah

What is your ranking of 5 stars?

Currently as stand-alone?

GG
Bolt
Iron Man
BSS
Phoenix
OML
Hulk
SS
Black Widow
Captain America

Though you could probably swap around Hulk, SS, and Widow. I think SS is great but I'm biased towards battery characters.

Can you please stop talking about 5* play until you have some personal experience?
Your roster shows a 260 0/1/1 OML and a few unleveled 2-3 cover others.

Blahahah

Bowgentle wrote:

Blahahah wrote:

Quest34 wrote:

Blahahah

What is your ranking of 5 stars?

Currently as stand-alone?

GG
Bolt
Iron Man
BSS
Phoenix
OML
Hulk
SS
Black Widow
Captain America

Though you could probably swap around Hulk, SS, and Widow. I think SS is great but I'm biased towards battery characters.

Can you please stop talking about 5* play until you have some personal experience?
Your roster shows a 260 0/1/1 OML and a few unleveled 2-3 cover others.

Are you perhaps suggesting my list is wrong? If so, please point out to me where and why.
Otherwise, I was asked for my opinion and gave it. If you disagree, I welcome your conversation.

Quest34

Blahahah wrote:

Quest34 wrote:

Blahahah

What is your ranking of 5 stars?

Currently as stand-alone?

GG
Bolt
Iron Man
BSS
Phoenix
OML
Hulk
SS
Black Widow
Captain America

Though you could probably swap around Hulk, SS, and Widow. I think SS is great but I'm biased towards battery characters.

How would you rank them not as stand alone but in the current game play dynamic?


Why should a middle of the pack 5 star be nerfed other than the fact that he was one of the firsts to come out so more people have enough covers to make him useful?

the game play is dominated by two player Oml and Phoenix because they both have had the best odds of being drawn outside of SS. I think If any of the characters you listed above Oml came out instead of Oml or Phoenix they would be the two characters that dominate the game. I don't think it is Oml or Phoenix problem but more the diluted opportunity to get 5 stars as they get released.

Blahahah

Quest34 wrote:

Blahahah wrote:

Quest34 wrote:

Blahahah

What is your ranking of 5 stars?

Currently as stand-alone?

GG
Bolt
Iron Man
BSS
Phoenix
OML
Hulk
SS
Black Widow
Captain America

Though you could probably swap around Hulk, SS, and Widow. I think SS is great but I'm biased towards battery characters.

How would you rank them not as stand alone but in the current game play dynamic?


Why should a middle of the pack 5 star be nerfed other than the fact that he was one of the firsts to come out so more people have enough covers to make him useful?

the game play is dominated by two player Oml and Phoenix because they both have had the best odds of being drawn outside of SS. I think If any of the characters you listed above Oml came out instead of Oml or Phoenix they would be the two characters that dominate the game. I don't think it is Oml or Phoenix problem but more the diluted opportunity to get 5 stars as they get released.

In meta and play dynamic? I better not say, Bowgentle might get mad at me. Sad times. (Bolt GG BSS Phoenix IM OML SS Hulk BW Captain probably though. You could debate between Phoenix and IM, but I'm not as big a fan of IM outside of his blue)

It's a matter of would-of but isn't. OML's design lends itself to bypass one of the biggest barriers, being health pack usage, and his power level allows him to heavily tip the scales in 2 and 3* play, and into some 4* play as well. There's a visible and clear line between people who do and don't have him at that stage of play, and there shouldn't be. I wouldn't say "nerf", I've voiced my opinion over and over suggesting that his gameplay cater to post-transformation rather than his strength lying in his base form. A change that would allow that is a reduction in his healing, but possessing stronger power after transforming (allowing late game players to benefit and making OML less of a "best all-rounder" option, but lowering the distance between lower level players in terms of possession or lacking) or even making it so his true healing is buffed but only active when transformed, and his base yellow being his transformed version (Which not only fits better with the lore, but would provide incentive to make using him more of a choice and less of a semi-forced requirement to stay competitive). Someone else suggested making it burst healing, which would have a similar effect, though I feel it would be a bit extreme at the top end unless it was really potent.

I'm aware that, if not him, someone else. I understand that fully, and yeah if he weren't around people would be complaining about Phoenix. Still, I feel it would sting less for new players who are trying to grow and expand to not be completely bunked by another player simply because his draw on a token was just that good. Top level players? They say it's not as big a deal for them. Lower level players? You can't walk 5 steps without hearing about "The only character that matters", and in fairness, it's not an entirely undeserved title at the level most people play at, being 2*-3*.

OneLastGambit

Firstly d3 gave no clue as to how they will change things but let's take the most recent example (and therefore the most valid) of character changes....I think we can all agree that every character they changed (vision, im40, qs) are all better. Are they top tier? No but that point wasn't to make them top tier, it was to try and create a tierless tier. They didn't achieve it but that's because they stopped the balancing. If they continue then perhaps they can make it a game of rock paper scissors rather than my toy is bigger than your you (which is what I think they are aiming for ).

Secondly

Oml is not OP. Sorry guys but he's not. I have a 10 cover oml whom I never use apart from pve. Why? He's too passive to be a problem.

Sure if you use him then he can be pretty good but against him? Piece of cake. Zero offensive capability if you take along a black user to Hoover up the black ap. Even his healing isn't op since 90% of the time you'll leave him till last and he heals nothing at all. Stuns are his worst enemy, and there are plenty of good stuns in the game.

When it comes to who I fear? Its not oml I win 9 out 10 matches against him. Who do I fear? In the 5* tier it's goblin or bss. Goblin is a wrecking machine and bss is a complete nuisance (i've lost many many fights against him and he's probably the best guy to take into a 3 on 1 fight <stun 1 take no damage repeat until opponent is dead> )

Oml doesn't need adjusting in my opinion and it's not because I have a usable one because I rarely do use him, he's very dull and boring to use. He just sits in the corner occasionally throwing a red tile around.

Characters that could benefit with a change?
Surfer: reduce blue cost to 9. Increease red damage by 15% and he's suddenly a lot more usable.
5Steve : poor Steve I want desperately to like him but he's just not quite there...change blue so that it uses opponent special tiles instead of yours and he's very scary. Also remove the end turn of his yellow.
Star Lord : he's actually no where near as bad as claimed but he is a little underpowered increase damage on purple and increase the effect of his yellow.
Cho : he needs a complete revamp, he doesn't play well with anyone and I'm a guy who tries to find niche uses for everyone (see above post about liking star lord for evidence)
IW: lower cost of green and she's done.
Xfw : I joined the game after his nerf but if you either return him to how he was or increase his health and damage then he'll be fine.

For those who do believe Oml is the only character that matters take a look at my 5* poll in character forum...it's funny that the people with fully maxed 5* all have bss goblin and Phoenix above oml.

Edit: that fix for oml...make his healing burst unless it's 5 covers is the best way to fix him. Not only will less people use him but they might also start using him at 5 in yellow reducing what little threat he is...

Edit again: changing 5Steve blue to use opponent specials for fuel instead of your own would make him an excellent counter to Oml/phoenix