Character Rebalance Plan

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  • SnowcaTT
    SnowcaTT Posts: 3,486 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Nerfing OML can't come fast enough.

    When Rulk was boosted, I saw the following question a couple times: "Rulk or Phoenix?".
    ...not "OML or Phoenix"
    ...not "OML or Rulk".
    Nope, OML is just assumed to -always- be the character that will never leave the lineup. Something has to be done about that.

    [Oh, and Rulk is way more annoying of a 4* than JG or Iceman or Cyc or whomever else is being discussed as a potential 4* nerf].
  • Merrick
    Merrick Posts: 198 Tile Toppler
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    A lot of good points have been brought up regarding usage.

    Older good 4*'s get used more than new ones simply because more people have them covered.

    Other characters get used or avoided because of color usage. When using Iron Fist & Hulkbuster for example, you most likely won't be using another character with black, red, or purple powers.

    But the one thing that hasn't been brought up is that certain characters aren't used as much because the AI can't play them.
    I am looking at Green Goblin in particular when I say this. I will attack him every time I see him because of how poorly the AI uses the trick or treat power.
  • SnowcaTT
    SnowcaTT Posts: 3,486 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Vhailorx wrote:
    He is just more common because of age and grinding utility.

    Perception does not equal reality. OML is not on every 5* team.

    I'm not a multi champed 5* player....so I still see OML in a good 80%+ of the matches. Precisely -because- of his grinding utility. Is see discussions all the time about how to properly grind PVE or PVP for ISO - and these often just presume that you'll be using OML, because that way you can run these events without ever needing health packs. If you remove his true heal, he would be a pretty fair character.
    DFiPL wrote:
    If anything happens to OML, the overreaction is going to be strong.

    Well, maybe either customer service shouldn't have been divvying out only OML covers to (paying) players who complained about the drop rates early on, or those players should have asked for something other than OML. Except...why would they at that time?

    Lots of players had max XF when he was the best and was nerfed into oblivion. Lots of players had paid to get him. The game goes on.
  • TheXMan
    TheXMan Posts: 138 Tile Toppler
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    Maybe at this point based on availability. But a well known player with all 5 stars maxed has OML ranked 5th. There is a thread under character discussion. So does OML get a nerf like xforce did and then never get buffed back up when a bunch of 5 stars pass him up?
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Logan needs nerfed period. Preferably they shave the godliness off his covers at low levels and leave him alone at 5 covers.

    If he is the same fully covered as he is right now, but not immediately better than every other character when he is 1-1-1 lvl 255 they are on to something good.
  • jobob
    jobob Posts: 680 Critical Contributor
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    OML is the most versatile, which is why I would take him first. That's a long way from "best." It's a "jack of all trades, master of none" kind of situation (though to be fair, he is probably the best sustained pusher).

    Furthermore, one of his best uses is in grinding the easy/medium PVE nodes. Should they nerf him for that reason? It will further weaken him in PVP. What is the goal of the rebalance? PVP or PVE? What about characters who excel in one realm over the other? Is that an acceptable niche role?

    And when you say he exists on every team that isn't GG/BSS... Well, doesn't that speak to the fact that he's just one of the most readily available 5*? As opposed to the best?

    I can tell you this... The majority of double 5* PVP teams I face are OML/PHx, and when you look at their roster those are their ONLY covered 5* (and often SS, but we agree he's under powered). Take any of the guys with 5+ champed 5*, and I bet 75% of them will not be using OML exclusively.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
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    TheXMan wrote:
    Maybe at this point based on availability. But a well known player with all 5 stars maxed has OML ranked 5th. There is a thread under character discussion. So does OML get a nerf like xforce did and then never get buffed back up when a bunch of 5 stars pass him up?

    A well known player also has 2 champed oml and only 1 ss. He also ranks bss high but only has 1. Oml is the most versatile and therefore best 5. Just come to terms that he is getting hit because he needs to.

    But as I said in a previous post hopefully they shave power off his earlier levels and leave him in the apparent state of "balance" that he is currently in while maxed.
  • jobob
    jobob Posts: 680 Critical Contributor
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    SnowcaTT wrote:
    Nerfing OML can't come fast enough.

    When Rulk was boosted, I saw the following question a couple times: "Rulk or Phoenix?".
    ...not "OML or Phoenix"
    ...not "OML or Rulk".
    Nope, OML is just assumed to -always- be the character that will never leave the lineup. Something has to be done about that.

    [Oh, and Rulk is way more annoying of a 4* than JG or Iceman or Cyc or whomever else is being discussed as a potential 4* nerf].
    First off, a highly-champed boosted Rhulk > OML.

    Second... Don't you think the reason that Phx wasn't used as much has something to do with the fact that her best power (purple) conflicts with a critical Rulk power, and the fact that she would tank all 3 of his colors when you want him out in front due to his passive?

    OML is going to be the best partner sometimes in PVP. Not every time. That makes him balanced, not OP.

    Again, the only people that assume he won't leave the lineup are the people who don't have a choice.

    If War Machine and IW were your only covered 4*, you would probably say WM would never leave the lineup... But he's not OP by any stretch of the imagination.
  • Blahahah
    Blahahah Posts: 738 Critical Contributor
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    Vhailorx wrote:
    Blahah:

    OML is not better than the other 5*s. He was the first very good 5* released, so relatively more people focused on collecting him. And he also undermines the healing mechanic in the game (and this is a game yhats all about grinding, so that is very valuable). But it seems pretty clear that oml is not significantly better tha, some other very strong 5*s (There are posts all over the boards and on line arguing variously that bss, gg, phoenix, im46, and BB are better than oml). He is just more common because of age and grinding utility.

    Perception does not equal reality. OML is not on every 5* team. There are just very few 5* players who have newer 5*s at a comparable level. I suspect that the ones that do use non-oml teams pretty often. The fact that he is seen most often doesn't mean that he is the best.

    And if collecting characters that are available and then using them make characters overpowered, then we should all just wait until each tier has 10 or 20 characters before we start collecting covers.

    It's odd you say that, because I've yet to see any 5* videos put out that don't have OML in them. That is beyond the point though.
    If you're making a 3 person team in this game, and you have a well-covered OML, chances are extremely obnoxiously good that OML is always going to be a part of that team.

    One might even say that unless the enemy team specifically counters it (like Bss) then you have no reason not to choose him at every avenue. I don't buy that it is just "he's been out longer so people use him" because SS has been out way longer and is debated for a spot in comparison to (who else) OML. People can say that bss/gg, phx, im and them are better, but at the end of the day, OML is the one they'll use. At the end of it all, OML is still the best, even if not the strongest. Herein lies the issue between us, and that's what our definition of being "the best" is.

    You claim it's because other characters do better. I say it's because those characters have to be compared to how they deal with, or compliment, OML.

    Let's take BB for example, for the sake of him being the most recent. Despite his clear synergy with SS, he was only regarded as being really "good" when people mixed him with OML and saw what happened. Up until then, as I know you saw, people were saying he was mildly underwhelming.

    BSS is literally only good because his passive counters OML and PHX as a team, but primarily he counters OML and that's his play in.

    In fact, it's been evidenced that the only time you'd use BSS/GG is to counter the OML/PHX team specifically. Otherwise, there isn't much point to it. I see it as a problem when how good a character is falls squarely on how they interact with one single character. As much as you'd like to deny it, for a VAST majority of players it is true. OML is probably the most complained about character in the current day, and the joke "Only character who matters" moniker didn't come from nowhere. One character shouldn't define an entire meta from the ground up, but OML does, and you know he does.

    So again, for those at the 0.01% who already don't use OML, him being changed won't shake anything up. According to you, there's plenty of other options already and that works out. For the rest of us at the 99.9% who have to shape our gameplans around having, not having, or going against OML, it matters more to us. I'd say name me one other 5* who affects the meta in the way OML does, but that character doesn't exist. That character hasn't existed since OML came out.
  • jobob
    jobob Posts: 680 Critical Contributor
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    tiomono wrote:
    Logan needs nerfed period. Preferably they shave the godliness off his covers at low levels and leave him alone at 5 covers.

    If he is the same fully covered as he is right now, but not immediately better than every other character when he is 1-1-1 lvl 255 they are on to something good.
    Now, THIS ^^^ is a fair and accurate point.

    When comparing under covered and under leveled 5*... OML gains power much, much more quickly. If we are comparing 1/1/1 lvl 270 5*... Then no question OML is waaaay over powered.

    A lvl 420 Phoenix who is 5/1/5 is still pretty weak. By contrast, any 420 OML is very solid.

    If they nerf covers to bring the power curve more in line with other 5*, I would see that as a positive change, as long as it isn't also a nerf to a fully covered OML.
  • We_are_Venom
    We_are_Venom Posts: 308 Mover and Shaker
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    TheVulture wrote:
    From a 3* playing perspective, this seems like fun news - the 3* tier has been static for so long now, there must be metrics (or at least an easy consensus) on which characters no one is willingly playing.

    100% Second Kirk Justice's call for Spider-man to be reworked! Can't be a bone of contention that a character with no offense and weak support = benchwarmer personified.

    I don't find him all that bad. His stun is cost efficient and multi turned. He heals and limits match damage with protect tiles. I used him to perma stun Rhulk in gauntlet and mines only level 55.
  • Blahahah
    Blahahah Posts: 738 Critical Contributor
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    jobob wrote:
    tiomono wrote:
    Logan needs nerfed period. Preferably they shave the godliness off his covers at low levels and leave him alone at 5 covers.

    If he is the same fully covered as he is right now, but not immediately better than every other character when he is 1-1-1 lvl 255 they are on to something good.
    Now, THIS ^^^ is a fair and accurate point.

    When comparing under covered and under leveled 5*... OML gains power much, much more quickly. If we are comparing 1/1/1 lvl 270 5*... Then no question OML is waaaay over powered.

    A lvl 420 Phoenix who is 5/1/5 is still pretty weak. By contrast, any 420 OML is very solid.

    If they nerf covers to bring the power curve more in line with other 5*, I would see that as a positive change, as long as it isn't also a nerf to a fully covered OML.
    The problem I have with the logic is, as I said, they'll likely shave away some survival but might compensate his post-transform abilities.

    Instead of him never wanting to change form, instead he is a character where changing form is an aim.

    Is that a nerf if 5/3/5 suddenly becomes better than 5/5/3 because you're no longer simply using him as a meat shield that spits out swords? You're talking downgrading, I'm talking change of direction. Take him from being a character you just have for the sake of having, and make him a character you choose to use for his purpose.
  • Jaedenkaal
    Jaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Let's all remember that they're (in all likelihood) nerfing everyone else's OML too, not just yours. So you might actually be able to put together a team that's not dedicated to fighting another OML.

    If we're going to demand character balance, we need to expect nerfs to outliers as well as buffs to underperformers. Dials need to be able to turn both ways. Nothin-but-buffs is presumably more fun, but the power creep that would cause does not make for a more fun game in the long run. (In before "but 5 stars!")

    Let's give them the season and see what happens. I welcome the chance to use characters I like rather than the one team I have that's the only one "good" enough.
  • Dormammu
    Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
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    A re-balance is wonderful news! I have so many suggestions...

    Ragnarok: Make him stupid-powerful again by having his red do 3k damage and cause cascades for 2AP.

    Spider-Man (3*): If you can, make him so he's not so weak its preferable to use his 1* version instead.

    Bag-Man: Nerf this guy, and then add him to all the token draws again; these forums would get soooo interesting.

    Storm (2*): Cut her health in half, she takes too long to down.

    Old Man Logan: As an anniversary celebration, give a cover-maxed OML to every player in the game, and then buff him. I just don't see this guy enough in pvp and it would be nice to fight him once in a while.

    Venom (1*): Rename his cover from Venom (Dark Avengers) to Venom (Waste of a roster slot) or Venom (Biggest waste of AP in the game). Not that any of us care, but you know... it would help new players.

    Psylocke: I don't know... do something.

    Iceman: NERF THIS MAN. Iceman is a tool. It's a frigging crime that a character as lame as Iceman is who everyone wants to use. Iceman is like the Ringo Star of the X-Men... he's only in the group because he happened to be there at the start. No one actually likes him.

    Finally, let's talk about Spider-Man again. Let's see... I have 23 versions of Captain America, 47 different Iron Men, and a 100 different Wolverines, all with their merits. Now, I dig 1* Spider-Man, but my maxed 3* Spider-Man was nerfed LONG before the 1* version came along, so I never got to enjoy him when I was a new player. Oh! There's a 2* Spider-Man who... nuff said. 3* Spider-Man... he's okay to pair with Torch and Falcon for the enchilada, but let's be honest - he's a niche support character at best. No 4* version... and a 5* version who I hear is the bomb but I'll never know because it'll take me ten years to get him cover maxed and by that time the game won't even exist. Am I asking for too much to have a decent 2/3* mid-tier Spider-Man, where the majority of players spend a looooong stretch of time? (warning: sarcasm coming) I mean, it's not like he's the face of Marvel Comics or my favorite superhero since I was 4 years old, or anything.


    P.S. I was kidding about the OML thing.

    P.P.S. How is it possible that Devil Dinosaur is playable but not a single version of Rogue?


    Thanks for listening developers, and keep it up! MPQ is my favorite game of all time. (No, seriously. Well, right after Skyrim, but second place ain't bad!)
  • Merrick
    Merrick Posts: 198 Tile Toppler
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    Using the usage metric to declare certain characters as overpowered is wrong.

    There are several characters that are part of a great team but alone are not so wonderful.

    Prime examples would be IM40, Iron Fist, & Scarlet Witch. IM40 gets used a lot. But always as a feeder for other characters. He is not scary by himself. I can't think of the last time I have seen Iron Fist if he wasn't paired either with Hulkbuster, Luke Cage, or OML. And you almost never see Scarlet Witch unless she is paired with Red Hulk or part of Charlie's Angels.

    The fact that these characters are great secondary characters and can play well with others,means they get used more than others characters. It does not mean they are overpowered by themselves.
  • jobob
    jobob Posts: 680 Critical Contributor
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    Patch and Daken need nerfs, since they are the 3* OML, and thus cosmically OP.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Blahahah wrote:
    jobob wrote:
    tiomono wrote:
    Logan needs nerfed period. Preferably they shave the godliness off his covers at low levels and leave him alone at 5 covers.

    If he is the same fully covered as he is right now, but not immediately better than every other character when he is 1-1-1 lvl 255 they are on to something good.
    Now, THIS ^^^ is a fair and accurate point.

    When comparing under covered and under leveled 5*... OML gains power much, much more quickly. If we are comparing 1/1/1 lvl 270 5*... Then no question OML is waaaay over powered.

    A lvl 420 Phoenix who is 5/1/5 is still pretty weak. By contrast, any 420 OML is very solid.

    If they nerf covers to bring the power curve more in line with other 5*, I would see that as a positive change, as long as it isn't also a nerf to a fully covered OML.
    The problem I have with the logic is, as I said, they'll likely shave away some survival but might compensate his post-transform abilities.

    Instead of him never wanting to change form, instead he is a character where changing form is an aim.

    Is that a nerf if 5/3/5 suddenly becomes better than 5/5/3 because you're no longer simply using him as a meat shield that spits out swords? You're talking downgrading, I'm talking change of direction. Take him from being a character you just have for the sake of having, and make him a character you choose to use for his purpose.

    But what if all his numbers from 3 covers on are untouched? What if they just shave power from the 2 cover and below Logans that are on nearly every stinking team I face.

    "I'm the best there is at what I do, but what I do best isn't very nice"

    What he does best is suck the fun out of the game for anyone that does not have 4 or 5 fully covered 5*s. Because he is too versatile and op early on.
  • Blahahah
    Blahahah Posts: 738 Critical Contributor
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    Merrick wrote:
    Using the usage metric to declare certain characters as overpowered is wrong.

    There are several characters that are part of a great team but alone are not so wonderful.

    Prime examples would be IM40, Iron Fist, & Scarlet Witch. IM40 gets used a lot. But always as a feeder for other characters. He is not scary by himself. I can't think of the last time I have seen Iron Fist if he wasn't paired either with Hulkbuster, Luke Cage, or OML. And you almost never see Scarlet Witch unless she is paired with Red Hulk or part of Charlie's Angels.

    The fact that these characters are great secondary characters and can play well with others,means they get used more than others characters. It does not mean they are overpowered by themselves.

    Actually, I don't wanna be the guy to break it to you but... You might want to find some better examples.

    IM40's Recharge is regarded as probably the single best ability in the game. It can give up to 36 AP in VERY valuable colors for the cost of 6 yellow AP, and if that ability existed outside of a 3* body, it would probably be used as much as OML.

    Iron Fist is often regarded as the hands down best 3* in the game, and sees common usage in the 4* tier (especially when boosted). In comparison to his other 3*s, he is indeed incredibly overpowered for his tier. Even by himself, he can 1v1 and take down a lot of people considering he has a roughly 4-5k nuke on 5AP. Him working well with others is just icing on the cake.

    Switch is debatable but yeah she is kinda sub-par on her own. Still, you couldn't debate there exists a better purple battery. She's the top.

    Rather than consider you don't see them without certain team mates (Because its a 3v3 game so you don't see anyone without team mates), consider the fact that these three 3* characters exist and propel the meta even 1 or 2 star levels above themselves. That's kinda evidence that they are indeed the best 3*s, simply not "the strongest".
  • Blahahah
    Blahahah Posts: 738 Critical Contributor
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    tiomono wrote:
    Blahahah wrote:
    jobob wrote:
    tiomono wrote:
    Logan needs nerfed period. Preferably they shave the godliness off his covers at low levels and leave him alone at 5 covers.

    If he is the same fully covered as he is right now, but not immediately better than every other character when he is 1-1-1 lvl 255 they are on to something good.
    Now, THIS ^^^ is a fair and accurate point.

    When comparing under covered and under leveled 5*... OML gains power much, much more quickly. If we are comparing 1/1/1 lvl 270 5*... Then no question OML is waaaay over powered.

    A lvl 420 Phoenix who is 5/1/5 is still pretty weak. By contrast, any 420 OML is very solid.

    If they nerf covers to bring the power curve more in line with other 5*, I would see that as a positive change, as long as it isn't also a nerf to a fully covered OML.
    The problem I have with the logic is, as I said, they'll likely shave away some survival but might compensate his post-transform abilities.

    Instead of him never wanting to change form, instead he is a character where changing form is an aim.

    Is that a nerf if 5/3/5 suddenly becomes better than 5/5/3 because you're no longer simply using him as a meat shield that spits out swords? You're talking downgrading, I'm talking change of direction. Take him from being a character you just have for the sake of having, and make him a character you choose to use for his purpose.

    But what if all his numbers from 3 covers on are untouched? What if they just shave power from the 2 cover and below Logans that are on nearly every stinking team I face.

    "I'm the best there is at what I do, but what I do best isn't very nice"

    What he does best is suck the fun out of the game for anyone that does not have 4 or 5 fully covered 5*s. Because he is too versatile and op early on.

    If you don't touch the one reason people bring him along, then nothing changes.

    Shave the power off of all 5 cover levels, make him a tactical choice and not just a health pack saver. ESPECIALLY at lower levels though.
  • GrumpySmurf1002
    GrumpySmurf1002 Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
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    tiomono wrote:
    Logan needs nerfed period. Preferably they shave the godliness off his covers at low levels and leave him alone at 5 covers.

    If he is the same fully covered as he is right now, but not immediately better than every other character when he is 1-1-1 lvl 255 they are on to something good.

    Of course, this runs counter to everything they told us back when 5* were released. They were all supposed to be as usable as OML out of the gate. The relevant quote:
    Q: How strong will 5-Star characters be?

    A: 5-Star characters will be usable as soon as you earn them. Where 3 and 4-Stars need 8 to 10 covers before they match the power of a maxed 2-Star or 3-Star, 5-Star characters need only a few covers to match the power of a maxed 4-Star.

    So one can argue that the problem isn't him, it's that Surfer and PHX aren't sufficiently strong at low levels. Surfer isn't even strong at high levels, and PHX completely depends on purple. (of course, OML without yellow has similar deficiencies)

    Right now, I think it's way more likely Surfer gets a boost than OML gets beaten down. The initial 3 are tied together, and it's really clear than 2 of them are much greater than the 3rd. The strength of those released thereafter is unlikely to effect their decision making right now. There just can't be as much usable data on them, even with BSS as old as 8 months old.