[PVE] scaling [Merged Thread]

goozen

Cthulhu wrote:

We do playtest, and we aren't asking our players to playtest. I have been getting destroyed since I do not own any 5 star characters and only own one 4 star antman cover (in civil war i couldn't beat iron man level 3). I'm discussing how hard it is for people in my situation. But as with everything it will take a little time to figure it out so there is a good balance for all players.

We have had a lot of great conversations and will be doing all we can. All I can do is say we are sorry if you are having a bad experience, that is not at all any of our intention.

cthulhu

I think something drastic needs to be done at the very base of the game. Lets look at a very popular F2P game such as Clash Royal. First of all the target daily play time is around 30-45 min, enough to be captivating, but not so much that its tiring and wears you down. In MPQ, if i want to get top 100 in events i need to play a minimum of 25 min four times a day and at least 10 min for daily. This is already 100+ min a day. And this is without the PVP that is also around 20-60 min a day.

Secondly its obvious that as a F2P player i wont have as good a roster or be able to top the events, thats fine. However i can in games like Clash reach the second highest or even the highest Arena as skill plays such a big role, but i will never get close to the those who max everything.
In MPQ however, skill plays less of a role but the gating is absurd as well as the pricing model. Not only have i been stuck on the 3>4 transition for months but if i were to spend 100$(!!!) on ISO i wouldnt be able to max my X-force from 190-> 270. Let that sink in for a moment 100$ is not enough to max one char, and i am a steam user. For that much money i could buy 5 AAA games that would give me hundreds of hours of play time.

Every time the question "On a scale of 1-10 how likely are you to recommend this game to a friend" is asked its an easy 1. Unless a person would be willing to put hundreds of dollars in to this game, he will be like me on day 829 of the resupply and stuck on he 3>4 transition with it being no where close, and maxing one will probably just hurt me by making nodes absurdly hard.

In addition, the whole guild and social could use a rework both on how tools and the benefits.
A few improvements i can think of are:
1. Give us an option to skip animations
2. When we give people Characters for team ups, let them get some ISO added to them
3. Let those who pay need to play less time
4. Cross games rewards like what blizzard does, first place in an event give you a skin or an XP boost in a differant marvel game.
5. More customization options

Electrovirus

snlf25 wrote:

And I'm out. I didn't even make it to the second split of the first gauntlet because I'm not fighting level 280 Venom goons for critical boosts and I'm sure not pushing past that and doing 12 more fights for a lousy gauntlet token which will net me my 5318008th Boobstone cover. Thanks but no thanks, keep it devs.

I think I'm just going to mostly retire, do the DDQ, Lightning rounds and just enough PvP to get my 4K progression 10 pack. Just have fun and only play the dwindling easy and fun parts.

Thats what I do. Why stress out over it, you will just burn out.

bbtrpt1

Demiurge_[bagman] wrote:

Thanks for the (many) comments and observations. Mission difficulty is constantly being debated and changed. It's a hard problem (but you probably inferred that by how much tuning happens).

We're taking the feedback in, thanks for your posts.

The saddest part of this is did you notice his post count is 3?!? Three posts by a Demiurge person. Holy lack of communication Batman!!! That explains it all right there.....

udonomefoo

bbtrpt1 wrote:

Demiurge_[bagman] wrote:

Thanks for the (many) comments and observations. Mission difficulty is constantly being debated and changed. It's a hard problem (but you probably inferred that by how much tuning happens).

We're taking the feedback in, thanks for your posts.

The saddest part of this is did you notice his post count is 3?!? Three posts by a Demiurge person. Holy lack of communication Batman!!! That explains it all right there.....

Bagman is new, he just made his first post last week. I'm not justifying the lack of communication over the last year, but I don't think that's on him.

ZeiramMR

DrStrange-616 wrote:

MPQ_Kerb wrote:

This reply may cause any flames that were simmering to flare up. Just a guess.

10 points to Gryffindor for anyone who recognizes this.

Of course I recognize it. Clue: The Movie is my favorite movie.

Yay, 10 points gets me a Critical boost.

Moon Roach

udonomefoo wrote:

bbtrpt1 wrote:

Demiurge_[bagman] wrote:

Thanks for the (many) comments and observations. Mission difficulty is constantly being debated and changed. It's a hard problem (but you probably inferred that by how much tuning happens).

We're taking the feedback in, thanks for your posts.

The saddest part of this is did you notice his post count is 3?!? Three posts by a Demiurge person. Holy lack of communication Batman!!! That explains it all right there.....

Bagman is new, he just made his first post last week. I'm not justifying the lack of communication over the last year, but I don't think that's on him.

I like that his name is in square brackets. Obviously bagman is a reserved word in their system.

Akari

My highest character is 360 oml, then 355 4cyc, everyone else 280 and below. Before even the end of the second sub, I'm fighting people at 370-375. Start of 3rd sub everyone is 384. When they lock out both of my 300+ characters, I just flail uselessly at them...

Bonus: I cleared 375 Rulk LThor 3Cyc node with unboosted 194 LCap, 182 IM40 and 141 Hood. Hardest match I ever played, and I'll never do that again. Screw you Gauntlet, I'm done. This isn't worth 1 Iceman cover.

Stax the Foyer

snlf25 wrote:

Challenge is fun, Stax but this isn't challenge. This is Demiurge_Gandalf unequivocally declaring "You Shall Not Pass!!"

No disagreement here. I was speaking in generalities, and didn't mean to imply that the current level of scaling was fun for anyone.

I'm a way, I'm probably less impacted by this than most of the playerbase, as I'm one of the small percentage that has Iceman fully covered. It's gotta be even more frustrating for people who need that cover to see it locked away behind a scaling test. There are very few opportunities for players to earn specific covers, and those are getting rarer as the 4* tier continues to expand.

Pylgrim

Ok so I have been thinking about scaling a lot (as we all have). Why does scaling exist to begin with? Scaling exists to guarantee that all players at all stations can play all (or at least most) nodes in levels of difficulty that correspond to their roster. Needless to say, after 2+ years of trying, a perfect method haven't been found. The system is too finicky and there are just too many variables, and of course, a limiting factor that is seldom discussed is that the "fairer" methods that jump to mind and are constantly offered in these forums are extremely susceptible to being gamed in the same way that soft-capping did or worse.

So again, why does scaling still exist? Removing it entirely and providing nodes of variable but pre-set difficulty not only would be instantly fair for everybody. (Note that "fair" doesn't mean, as many think "I should be able to get ALL the rewards with not great effort, regardless of my roster". but it means that it will be perfectly equal ground rules and expectations for everybody.) Moreover, with set difficulty, you can "gate" the rewards in an intuitive way that improves with difficulty (and your roster's capability to deal with); in that way you could give, for example, more ISO to players in the higher tiers, for whom the 70-140 ISO that is good and fair for 2* players is not even a pittance. It would contribute to moving the thick of the reward scheme to progression instead of placement, which in turn would allow for fairer, less time-slaving grindfest playing systems.

And yet, scaling still exists and keeps being tinkered fruitlessly with even as we speak. I think I've realised why: PVE are "story" events. Every node tells a bit of an slowly advancing story (and this is why "essential' nodes rarely have significant story bits or cutscenes: not every player can play those nodes). Story is what make the developers toil to ensure that every player (or most) can play every node (or at least, most), hence, scaling.

So what is there to do? How could that goal be still achieved if we removed scaling? I think tiered "divisions" would be the way to go. For example allowing you to pick at the beginning of an event between "Novice" (for 1*, 2* and low 3* players), "Expert" (for 2*, 3* and low 4* players) and "Master" (for 3*, 4* and 5* players). Each tier would have nodes of set difficulty that would allow most players within those ranks to play at different levels of challenge. For example, in the Novice division, "trivial" nodes would be level 10 while the hardest node could be level 140, while the trivial nodes in the Master division would start at 140 and the hardest node could be level 450 or so. This system would also have the advantage to further allow allocation of proper rewards to all players! For example, the Novice division should not have an LT as last progression reward, as those players don't need 4* or 5*s; on the other hand, the Master division shouldn't have any standard tokens or 2* covers in its progression ladder.

What do you think? Can you guys think of any other ways to get rid of scaling while allowing players experience the story?

BearVenger

jffdougan wrote:

DrStrange-616 wrote:

MPQ_Kerb wrote:

This reply may cause any flames that were simmering to flare up. Just a guess.

10 points to Gryffindor for anyone who recognizes this.

It's the late Madeline Kahn as Miss Scarlet in Clue: the Movie. Martin Mull as Colonel Mustard is in the background behind her.

That VHS was my family's go-to pizza movie. That was Madeline Kahn, but as Ms. White, expressing her hatred for the maid her husband slept with.

MaxxPowerz

You might be on to something. At this point i can hardly see how it could be any worse. At least I'll know that the difficulty isn't based on the three 5* characters I never use.

TazFTW

"David wrote:

Moore"]Hi everyone,

I've checked in with the devs on the scaling and I'll let you know what the word is when I have it. In the meantime, can we please turn the flames back down to simmer?

Thank you.

Think of it as being Johnny Storm and a Flamethrower goes off...

TazFTW

DrStrange-616 wrote:

MPQ_Kerb wrote:

This reply may cause any flames that were simmering to flare up. Just a guess.

10 points to Gryffindor for anyone who recognizes this.

Hmm, things didn't go so well for the messenger in that. Run David!

apmonte

What else can be said that hasn't already. This is a terrible event. I don't even mind challenging nodes, but the rewards are so out of line that it's not worth my time. I made it to the final node on Alpine Tactics just to see how far I could get, but lost horribly to level 306 SW, OML, & IF. Whoever thought the rewards were appropriate for this event needs a serious beatdown. Worst event ever.

udonomefoo

Stax the Foyer wrote:

I'm a way, I'm probably less impacted by this than most of the playerbase, as I'm one of the small percentage that has Iceman fully covered. It's gotta be even more frustrating for people who need that cover to see it locked away behind a scaling test. There are very few opportunities for players to earn specific covers, and those are getting rarer as the 4* tier continues to expand.

That's me, my iceman is at 11 covers, this one would make 12. I was so excited to see that it was final reward in an event I really like.

*sad trombone*

John Wayne74

Since there seems to be new life being breathed into communication i would like to state what I see and also would love feedback on weather this is a lone wolf outlook or shared by many.

I do understand that scaling is being looked at because of the 5* meta. But it also needs to be considered that it took mountains of time and ISO to obtain 3* and 4* characters. I myself have all 40 3*'s champed and 11 4*'s champed (working toward all in a slow fashion). It took time to not only obtain the covers but to level them to usable play and will continue. With every scaling change that I have seen being developed it seems that the 3* and even mostly the 4* toons are being phased out of usefulness with the systems being suggested if you have higher level 5*'s. In example the gauntlet and the two previous no timer refresh on standard pve with the easy nodes being deleted. I would like to be able to use my roster and not just one or two teams of my 100 slot roster. Even in pvp 3*'s matter not when you get close to or actually champ your 5*'s with the exception of hood and im40. The gauntlet of all events should be tiered in a manner that still allows 2*-3* play in the first level and 3*-4* play in the 2-3 levels. Please do not take away the only single outlet for using the characters we never get to actually use anywhere else. It's almost as if they collect dust until gauntlet comes around. Being that it is non competative and the rewards are so minimal, if someone chooses to blow through the whole thing using nothing but 5*'s who cares. As long as those of us who do like using old combos from before transitioning up still have one outlet for that. I for one would love to use fist cage cmags again like I used to. Or mags Storm hawkeye. Other than the daily. That is one of many issues yes, but I am trying to limit this to the thread topic at hand, the gauntlet. Obviously the end goal should be hard to obtain but a slow build to that point would be nice once more. Very slow build please!! Let us use what we can't on a daily basis except for that blue moon gauntlet comes around. Please.

Esheris

I had a thought but it's not perfect. The more clears you do on one node the harder the node gets but the better the reward you get each time (er that was wordy sorry it's getting late!). So maybe it gets you 50 Iso the first time and super easy to beat, then on the 6th clear it's pretty hard but beatable for a 4* roster and you get 1,000 Iso. Then on the 7th round you need luck or a deep 4* (blossoming 5*) roster but you get a Vault token. All examples of course.

But that's where it gets messy, meaning 4* and 5* players would have to spend more time to do more clears. It's all I could think of without D3 having to scrap all the events they have now unless they make those solo-progression (which isn't a bad thing...but seems like it's not the direction they personally want to go in).

John Wayne74

Curious question from someone who has been out of the networking circle for many years.

With the multi time slots and multiple events because of the total numbers of players capped per event, could the servers handle three sets of that as opposed to the one set we currently have?

I love the idea, truly. Just curious if it could actually be accomplished. I have pondered if that very issue is the reason we still don't have 4* pvp events. Too many things running concurrently?

digimon1208

Cthulhu wrote:

I 100% agree! I promise!

cthulhu

Hi Cthulhu,

I am a terminal illness patient and I have been playing MPQ for the last 2 1/2 years.
MPQ was my fav pastime in between my illness as well as a form of pastime and fun factor to share with the rest of the community.
I spent a fair bit of money in game eg. getting new 5* char just like any other players in game.

However, as of year 2016 onwards, MPQ has been killing my fun factor and with all sort of testing being thrown at. eg. new pvp format (which I try to understand the idea behind it) but with the scaling format in the current gauntlet event, it goes up another level and if you already notice this is my 1st ever post ranting on MPQ forum.

I have a strong feeling in game now that with a better roster and boosting up a team of 5* I am being punished in game. This kind of scaling format make the game so unplayable and it is not about "challenging". Trust me, I face more challenge in life as it is.

I JUST WANT TO STRESS THAT GAME ARE SUPPOSED TO BE FUN!

waywreth

I'm a 3 to 4 transition player. I got to about level 18 before the scaling crushed me, and all the fighters are higher than the highest team I can field (which would be 3 of the 1 cover 5 ). I use the Gauntlet as a great test to see how far I can get - recently I've been able to crack into the last sub, and was hoping to get further. I gave up at the 20th node. The scaling really ruined the fun in this event - scaling that occurred without any notice or discussion.